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Thread: St. Louis: A very misunderstood city, PART III [Broadband recommneded]

  1. #1
    Cyburbian
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    St. Louis: A very misunderstood city, PART III [Broadband recommneded]

    ST. LOUIS: The City is Back. Back the City.

  2. #2
    exactly

  3. #3
         
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    What a GREAT representation of St. Louis!! Bravo on those photos. It's nice to see that someone else has passion for St. Louis. I LOVE St. Louis and am very proud to be from here. It is a beautiful city with a lot of beautiful architecture and TONS of history. The shots you show here really show a lot of what this great city has to offer!! Keep it up and keep the pics of this beautiful city coming. In each of these I see a new spot I have never seen before, I also love the pics of the citizens of the community!!

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    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Some of the pictures I saw...the ones I was patient enough to wait for gave me a little bit of a bad impression. In some ways, St. Louis looks like a watered down version of Rockford, Cedar Rapids, or Peoria...not one of America's most important cities (which it is). St. Louis still has a ways to go. And don't even get me started with East St. Louis, which should be evacuated and blow-torched. Anyways, I think St. Louis is making a slow but sure comeback. I think some things key to your future will be:

    a) continuing to improve transit, especially with connections to the suburbs
    b) a new baseball stadium, downtown
    c) trying to get a national basketball team
    d) expanding the downtown area
    e) increasing density
    f) increasing housing and population
    g) making downtown THE place to do business, not the beltway
    h) maintain and focus on the riverfront, especially with history, culture, and festivals
    i) making an urbane corridor all the way from the zoo/museum area on the west side to the Arch on the east side (i.e. San Fran: Presido/Golden Gate Rec Area all the way to downtown/Fisherman's Wharf)
    j) aesthetics, aesthetics, aesthetics!!!
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  5. #5
    Cyburbian
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    You must have a different taste in cities. These pics show a very urban, diverse city. "Watered down Rockford"??? You lost me on that one. I don't see how anyone could confuse this city with a 2nd rate Illinois city. This bitch is older and more mature than Chicago for christ's sake. Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit? Oh well, to each his own.
    ST. LOUIS: The City is Back. Back the City.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JivecitySTL
    You must have a different taste in cities. These pics show a very urban, diverse city. "Watered down Rockford"??? You lost me on that one. I don't see how anyone could confuse this city with a 2nd rate Illinois city. This bitch is older and more mature than Chicago for christ's sake. Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit? Oh well, to each his own.
    Don't be dissing Rockford now...because I will take it over one day and make it the place it was meant to be. Dis Peoria instead...lol. And please read my suggestions. St. Louis has great potential, probably moreso than any Midwest city. You have beautiful parks and rich history. But it still needs improvement, especially if you want to consider your city better than Chicago. And if I had a faster computer and smaller pics to work with, I probably could give a more comprehensive judgement.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  7. #7
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Excellent photo tour, thank you. I came away feeling some of the atmosphere there.

    Interesting camper truck there with the wacky paint job. Mushrooms all over it. Hmmm...

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Luca's avatar
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    oops, made some kinda mistake.

    anyhow. nice pics.
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 21 Aug 2006 at 10:57 AM.
    Life and death of great pattern languages

  9. #9
    Cyburbian
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    Illinoisplanner-- don't put words in my mouth. I did not say STL's character surpasses Chicago, I said that Saint Louis is older and more established, which is a fact.

    But come on, I'm not sure if you were trying to insult St. Louis or flatter the 3rd-rate Illinois cities you mentioned, but you and I both know that calling St. Louis a "watered down version of Peoria" is complete and total bull****.

    You admitted that you only saw a few pics from these sets, so therefore you admitted ignorance. There are well over 100 pics in all three threads. Please view them all before making a ridiculous and unfounded statement like that.
    ST. LOUIS: The City is Back. Back the City.

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    Illinoisplanner - I do not disagree that STL could use some improvement, what city can't?? I know there is currently a lot of work going into the city, especially redevelopment efforts. I doubt STL will ever be like Chicago, I don't know that is the goal of anyone that lives or works here. And I have been to Rockford and do not think there is ANY comparison between the two cities. STL is older, more dense and larger. The architecture in STL far surpasses anything I saw in Rockford.
    When I went to Rockford I was impressed with the size and the strucutres there; there just didn't seem to be any "soul" to the place, you would be hardpressed to find any area lacking "soul" in STL. One other thing, I noticed you mentioned East St. Louis, sorry, thats not on the Missouri side...we will leave it up to the planners in East St. Louis to fix the problems on that side of the river

  11. #11
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JivecitySTL
    you and I both know that calling St. Louis a "watered down version of Peoria" is complete and total bull****
    Yep, Peoria is more like a watered down St. Louis. Smaller, still sprawly, struggling CBD. St.Louis' is recovering quicker than P-town's. Abanoned, slightly recovering north-ends. I really enjoyed my abbreviated tour of STL that I took last June. I'd love to move into old STL one day.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JivecitySTL
    Illinoisplanner-- don't put words in my mouth. I did not say STL's character surpasses Chicago, I said that Saint Louis is older and more established, which is a fact.

    But come on, I'm not sure if you were trying to insult St. Louis or flatter the 3rd-rate Illinois cities you mentioned, but you and I both know that calling St. Louis a "watered down version of Peoria" is complete and total bull****.

    You admitted that you only saw a few pics from these sets, so therefore you admitted ignorance. There are well over 100 pics in all three threads. Please view them all before making a ridiculous and unfounded statement like that.
    Hey, I may be poor and can't afford a faster internet connection, but in no way am I ignorant. I know plenty from St. Louis and other Midwest cities. Maybe I was wrong in my comparison of St. Louis to Rockford and Peoria...maybe Milwaukee may have been a better choice. Nevertheless, St. Louis needs more improvement than any other Midwest city of its size. Interestingly enough, it also has more potential than any other Midwest city of its size. Judging from some of the pictures (especially the old apartment buildings), the local economy, the hard statistics of declining population, and the better options afforded in the Midwest, it is not a place I would want to live.

    Quote Originally posted by Jaxspra
    I noticed you mentioned East St. Louis, sorry, thats not on the Missouri side...we will leave it up to the planners in East St. Louis to fix the problems on that side of the river

    Planners in East St. Louis?!?!?...ROTFLMAO. Isn't that like an oxymoron?? Unless by planners, you mean drug lords, Casino men, crooked Democrat politicians, and citizens who don't care.
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 21 Aug 2006 at 10:57 AM.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  13. #13
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    Hey, I may be poor and can't afford a faster internet connection, but in no way am I ignorant. I know plenty from St. Louis and other Midwest cities. Maybe I was wrong in my comparison of St. Louis to Rockford and Peoria...maybe Milwaukee may have been a better choice. Nevertheless, St. Louis needs more improvement than any other Midwest city of its size. Interestingly enough, it also has more potential than any other Midwest city of its size. Judging from some of the pictures (especially the old apartment buildings), the local economy, the hard statistics of declining population, and the better options afforded in the Midwest...
    ^Once again, you are making blanket, unfounded generalizations. Exactly how does STL "need more improvement than any other Midwest city"??? Care to elaborate there? Cleveland? Detroit? Am I missing something here? You are making statements like you are some kind of authority, as if you know something about what cities "need" that the rest of us don't.

    FACT: Older midwest cities in general need a LOT of work. St. Louis is no exception, but I hardly think it is in as desperate shape as you make it out to be. It's a very livable, vibrant city for the most part. Of course it has ****ty, abandoned neighborhoods, just like every city that boomed prior to 1950. It is probably in better shape than many cities in that it has such rich cultural, educational and corporate institutions with very deep roots and very deep pockets, in addition to its distinctive and established neighborhoods and housing stock.


    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    it is not a place I would want to live.
    With all due respect, so what if you don't want to live in St. Louis. There are million cities I have absolutely no desire to live in either. Just curious, what cities would you like to live in? You know, seeing as though you call a remote and homogenous Chicago suburb home and all (no offense). Not trying to start $#!+ here, it's just strange how you seem to be an authority about St. Louis's urban condition, when in fact you have made several statements (i.e. the Rockford/Peoria remark) that negate any credibility you ever had. If you only judge a city by misleading statistics or by what you read, you are really missing out. It's very clear to me that you don't know the real city at all.
    ST. LOUIS: The City is Back. Back the City.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JivecitySTL
    ^Once again, you are making blanket, unfounded generalizations. Exactly how does STL "need more improvement than any other Midwest city"??? Care to elaborate there? Cleveland? Detroit? Am I missing something here? You are making statements like you are some kind of authority, as if you know something about what cities "need" that the rest of us don't.

    FACT: Older midwest cities in general need a LOT of work. St. Louis is no exception, but I hardly think it is in as desperate shape as you make it out to be. It's a very livable, vibrant city. It is probably in better shape than many cities in that it has such rich cultural, educational and corporate institutions with very deep roots and very deep pockets, in addition to its distinctive and established neighborhoods and housing stock.



    With all due respect, so what if you don't want to live in St. Louis. There are million cities I have absolutely no desire to live in either. Just curious, what cities would you like to live in? You know, seeing as though you call a remote and homogenous Chicago suburb home and all (no offense). Not trying to start $#!+ here, it's just strange how you seem to be an authority about St. Louis's urban condition, when in fact you have made several statements (i.e. the Rockford/Peoria remark) that negate any credibility you ever had.
    First of all, need I put the words "in my opinion" in front of everything I say. Or are you that misguided that you take my words as cold facts and words of "authority." Yes, I do believe St. Louis needs the most work of any city OF ITS SIZE and the part you forgot, has the BIGGEST POTENTIAL of any city of its size. Detroit is about twice as large as STL, for the time being. So, I wouldn't compare the two. Maybe, I forgot Cleveland...I think they are about equal, except that St. Louis has greater potential. But IMO, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Columbus are all in much better shape than STL. The problem with STL is that much of the money, time, and effort is spent just outside the city rather than in it, and that's not always something one can control.

    And, OK...you want a list of cities I'd rather live in than STL. OK.
    Omaha
    Council Bluffs
    Des Moines
    Iowa City
    Cedar Rapids
    Ames
    Davenport
    Moline
    Minneapolis
    St. Paul
    Woodbury
    Bloomington, MN
    Eau Claire
    Madison
    Milwuakee metro
    Sheboygan
    Manitowoc
    Two Rivers
    Green Bay-Fox Cities
    Racine
    Kenosha
    Lake Geneva-Elkhorn
    Rockford
    Belvidere
    Galesburg
    Dubuque
    Sterling-Rock Falls
    Dixon
    Ogle County
    entire Chicago CMSA
    Champaign-Urbana
    Decatur
    Bloomington-Normal
    Peoria metro
    Springfield
    LaSalle-Peru-Ottawa
    Macomb
    Quincy
    Carbondale
    Mattoon-Charleston
    South Bend
    Fort Wayne
    Kokomo
    Indianapolis metro
    Cincinnati metro
    Columbus metro
    Dayton metro
    Grand Rapids
    Holland
    Muskegon
    Lansing
    Ann Arbor
    Saginaw
    Midland
    Traverse City
    Marquette
    Overland Park
    Independence
    Columbia
    Louisville
    Lexington
    Denver
    Aurora
    Littleton-Centennial
    Colorado Springs
    Fort Collins
    Greeley
    Rocky Mountain National Park
    Salt Lake City metro
    Ogden-Layton
    Orem-Provo metro
    Logan
    Boise-Nampa
    Coeur d'alene
    Laramie
    Cheyenne
    Sioux Falls
    Sioux City
    Rapid City
    Spokane
    San Diego metro
    Phoenix metro
    Flagstaff
    Prescott
    Sedona
    Dallas
    Fort Worth
    Austin
    San Antonio
    Abilene
    Wichita Falls
    Amarillo
    Lubbock
    Tyler
    Oklahoma City
    Wichita
    Lawrence
    Manhattan
    Topeka
    Birmingham
    Mobile
    Pensacola
    Panama City
    Jacksonville
    St. Petersburg
    Clearwater
    Tampa
    Punta Gorda
    Sarasota
    Bradenton
    Fort Myers
    Naples
    Greenville, SC
    Spartanburg
    Charleston, SC
    Columbia
    Charlotte
    Raleigh-Durham
    Anchorage

    And don't ****!ng criticize my hometown. It didn't used to be like that. It didn't used to be a damn clone of Schaumburg, Hoffman Estates, and Buffalo Grove. When I moved here, it sure wasn't a homogenous suburb. It didn't used to be snobville, old Del Webb people, and SUV mania. And I'm not proud of it. In fact, it's why I aspire to be an urban planner. My town used to be a sleepy farm community of 3,000 lovely people 10 years ago. And then came the herd of sheep up I-90, trying to reap every last benefit of my newfound special place that's not so ****!ng special anymore.

    And please, why do you say "no offense" or "i'm not trying to start s#it", when in fact you are??
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  15. #15
    Cyburbian ICT/316's avatar
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    I was in St. Louis in 2001 for the first time and was impressed with the CBD and Union Station area. I had always been obsessed with the blight and white flight of the city (viewing urban decay websites and what not). After seeing every oneís photos I have changed my mind. St. Louis is truly beautiful and unique unto itself. The north side area still needs some work. The Montgomery area is particularly hard hit by blight, but what city doesnít have the same example.

    I still need to look at all the other photoís posted! Good job St. Louis!

    Bill

    Hey now, I did not read any of the post before my last post on this thread. It comes down to regional bias and love of your area. Iím from the Wichita metro area and I think itís the greatest city ever! Iím biased. Iíve been around and seen my share. Wichita is not the greatest city, I know that. By pure facts it way TF down the line, but I love it.

    Illinoisplanner, you know what Iím talking about! Your rural suburban town of Chicago is becoming the city you donít necessarily want to see. Work toward that goal of controlled, but prospers growth for your community.

    JivecitySTL, St.Louis is not in its glory days of the early 1900ís. The World Fair and the Olymipicís, when it was nearly 1 million people. BUT and I say BUT, itís coming along nicely, I might say. Yes, a lot of cities need help.

    Itís pride. Maybe we can make a difference in our own little worlds. We love our cities and what they represent. No need to knock each other. We all have a passion here, letís stay focused.

    Bill
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 21 Aug 2006 at 10:57 AM.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian
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    Illinoisplanner--- I didn't mean to take a cheap shot at your town, and for that I'm sorry. While I think St. Louis can do a lot better in many areas, it has come a long way since the dark days of the '90s. There is so much reinvestment in the city today. It is not the same place it was a few years ago. What I have a problem with is your suggestion that St. Louis is the only city competing with its suburbs, or at least is competing the hardest, when in fact there are countless cities experiencing the exact same thing to greater extremes. St. Louis is definitely on the comeback at this time, it is obvious to any visitor. Property values have increased in every single zip code in the city limits; some have absolutely exploded. You really need to shed your old perceptions, this is a different place than it used to be.

    btw, based on your list of cities you'd like to live in, I assume you don't care much for urban places and instead prefer suburban or small town environments. That's perfectly fine. I am the exact opposite.
    ST. LOUIS: The City is Back. Back the City.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian
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    I have not been through STL since the late 90's and I am amazed at how much it has improved since then. One can tell this city has massive amount of investment going on from what these photographs show and it is a big change since I last saw it in person.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian drucee's avatar
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    What part of St. Louis is this? Because its resemblance to Hyde Park Blvd. in Chicago is uncanny.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian
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    ^That is the Skinker-DeBaliviere neighborhood on the city's West Side.
    ST. LOUIS: The City is Back. Back the City.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner

    And, OK...you want a list of cities I'd rather live in than STL. OK.
    Omaha
    Council Bluffs
    Des Moines
    Iowa City
    [snip]
    Grand Rapids
    Holland
    Muskegon
    Lansing
    Ann Arbor
    Saginaw
    Midland
    Traverse City
    Marquette
    [snip]
    Charlotte
    Raleigh-Durham
    Anchorage
    What the... Good call on your Michigan List, but where is Kalamazoo?
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  21. #21
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    What the... Good call on your Michigan List, but where is Kalamazoo?
    wow lost out to Saginaw and Midland. Thats pretty bad!

  22. #22
    Cyburbian bocian's avatar
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    Many photos resembled Toronto a lot in my view -- which is a good thing. So, thinking about my next move...
    Does anyone know what shape St Louis public school system is in? And which parts of town are affordable, diverse, but also relatively safe and close to transit (LR)? Thanks.

  23. #23
    I see a lot of Chicago mixed with Detroit (in better condition).

    Illinois Planner knows not what he speaks

  24. #24
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by steel View post
    I see a lot of Chicago mixed with Detroit (in better condition).

    Illinois Planner knows not what he speaks
    in his Curley voice "aww wise guy eh?" "ruff!"
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  25. #25
    Sorry DP but SL is in better condition than the big Mo

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