I thought there should be a thread about all applicants to the 2014 session of MSRED...
Everyone applying list the following so that all of us may gain some perspective
Age :
Program Applying to : Columbia /MIT / NYU / .....etc
UGrad subject and GPA :
GRE / GMAT score :
Prior Work Experience: Which Field / No. of Years
Expected Placements : Money / Organization
Place where you want to Work :
Age 26
Applying to Columbia + MIT
Architecture Background 3.5 GPA
163 verbal, 161 quantitative- GRE 700GMAT(Expected)
Work Ex at Real Estate Consulting in JLL/CBRE/Cushman etc 1 year
Planning to work for JLL at a more senior position after MSRED
salary expectation around 90k
want to work in New York and maybe internationally later on
What do you think my chances are? Are my salary expectations too high/too low? Do I need to give the GMAT /Is GRE good enough for Columbia?
Age : 26
Program Applying to : MIT (not interested in spending more than 1 year in grad school)
UGrad subject and GPA : B. Arch (5 year prof. degree) 3.6 GPA
GRE / GMAT score : 700 GMAT (hopefully!
Prior Work Experience: Traditional architecture role w/ some development knowledge, 3 years
This fall/spring, I'll be taking a 9 month certificate course through the University of Washington that I've heard is a great primer for getting more connected in the regional RE community and getting a good foundation of RE knowledge. I don't know if it will transfer into some work experience after graduation. Never the less, my hope is that I can apply for next year (or for 2015) and build upon this experience with MIT's financial-grounded program. There are a couple of MIT MSRED alumni out here in Seattle I know of, but I have yet to connect with them.
sad_duck: sounds like you've got the skill set they may be looking for (and good grades/test scores), though I was under the impression MIT likes to attract applicants with some good work experience. Did you mean to state you've only had one year of experience in your RE position outside of school?
Age: 27
Program(s): Plan to apply to MIT and Columbia. Possibly USC
Undergrad: Business - Entrepreneurship, International Business, Summa Cum Laude - 3.9 GPA (large state univ. in southwest US)
GMAT: 730
Prior Work Experience: 2.5 years with boutique mixed-use, TND, New Urbanist developer in Southwest (project manager), 2.5 years with large oil and gas company (business development)
Employment Goals: $100k - development associate role for large scale developer (Hines, Related Companies, Forest City, etc.)
Place Where I Want to Work: Very open - wouldn't mind coming back to Southwest or Midwest US (Austin, Denver, Louisville, OKC, etc.)
I'm a little concerned about my work experience for MIT as they claim to require 3 years+. I am currently working in the energy sector (job in RE came to end with financial slowdown in 2008-2010), but want to move back into development with a larger RE development firm in the same type of project management role. I have stayed involved in the real estate sector locally (ULI, CNU, etc.), but have to acknowledge that I've been out of the industry for more than 2 years. Hopefully that won't be frowned upon too much!
Really looking forward to grad school.
ecoates:
I would guess MIT would be understanding since the RE/A/E/C fields are just recovering from the recession. It might even be a benefit to your application if you can draw parallels between Oil and Gas development strategy and your RE experience.
If you don't mind me asking, you mentioned you attended a large state school in the southwest for your undergrad. I know that AZ state has a 1 year MRED program through their business school. Any personal knowledge/opinions on the kinds of candidates or curriculum they have for their program?
Thanks for the reply fisch_m, I hope you're right. My role in the energy industry definitely has a project management aspect (and at times, real estate development) to it. I will be making a case for parallels between the two in my applications.
I don't know much about the ASU MRED program except that it exists and is probably a good option for those interested in the AZ or So Cal markets. I'm not quite that far southwest and have yet to come in contact with any graduates of their MRED or MBA program. As far as MsRED or MRED programs are concerned, I've stayed pretty focused on MIT, Columbia, and USC (due to their strong alumni base and 2 year MBA/MRED option). I've also looked into the programs at Cornell, U. of Miami, and Harvard.
I also plan to apply to 2-3 full-time, traditional MBA programs. I am certain I want to focus on RE Development, but several of the large development companies I've spoken with claim they value talented graduates of the top MBA programs just as much if not more than the specialized real estate masters programs. At the same time, I think the classes in the RE programs would be so much more interesting to me.
Are any of you considering the traditional MBA approach? Why or why not?
ecoates:
I spent some time looking at traditional MBA programs, specifically focused on RE finance theory. While I could see myself applying to one of those programs, I'm hesitant to aim for a program longer than 1 year because of accumulated student debt. Most of the top MBA programs do offer a much more in-depth experience however, and I think it's wise to at least apply to some of those programs. You bring up a good point that employers could and have valued a more broad MBA type education with specialization in RE, rather than a MSRED. Overall, a lot of the research coming out of these programs suggests a very healthy salary post graduation. However, I'm not quite sure where my architecture experience would land me in that spectrum (as opposed to coming from a Wall Street/REIT background).
Also, I think the top MSRED programs have some good crossover programs between design, planning, and finance courses, so I imagine that entering into a program like MIT's or Columbia's with pretty good focus on what you want to accomplish would help maximize the investment in grad school. When I visited MIT's campus and toured their program, I was especially happy to hear about the connections and reciprocity they have with Kennedy, HBS and the GSD over at Harvard, and that most students will sign up for an abundance of classes at both schools just to check them out. This goes without mentioning the connection you would have with the R&D going on at MIT's campus (if you wanted to pursuit a focus in healthcare/R&D RE development)
If I were to apply to an MBA program, I'd probably still be looking at Sloan at MIT for its finance focus, as well as HBS, Wharton, Columbia and possibly University of Washington (it's an attractive option not to have to move across the country and still get a great education)
Have you visited Columbia or USC yet? I've had some interest in visiting NYC and talking with some of the faculty. I'd like to hear what you found out about the campuses you've visited so far...
fisch_m
I think we are of a like mind as far as evaluating MBA vs. MSRED programs. I too am wary of the additional student debt I will need to assume if I go the traditional MBA route. I am planning to apply to 2-3 programs that have a Real Estate "major" along with the MIT and Columbia MsREDs and then go from there. Who knows, I may not get into any of them or perhaps one of the MBA programs will offer some financial assistance in the form of a scholarship, tuition waiver or fellowship. It's still fluid, but I am preliminarily targeting HBS, Wharton, and the University of Texas - Austin (incredible city that is booming from a RE perspective and THE university in the SW). I couldn't find evidence of real estate classes in MIT Sloan's course catalog.
For me, the decision to spend 1 or 2 years in graduate school is more about the career opportunities that will result as opposed to simply having the brand. For example, if Hines or Boston Properties recruit for the same position at MIT or Columbia's RE programs as they do at Wharton or Sloan, then it is difficult to justify the additional year of debt. You bring up a great point regarding historical salary numbers for recent graduates at the top RE programs, both appear to compare favorably with real estate-focused graduates in top 10 MBA programs.
Can you provide additional detail on your visit to MIT's CRE? I am planning to visit this fall, but the info on their website is a bit outdated. I'd love to hear your overall impression and any details about interactions with the faculty or current students. I have a good friend that is a graduate of MIT's Masters of Urban Planning program and have been very impressed by his experience. At the same time, I like the focus Columbia seems to place on urban design theory. The course titles for both their required and elective courses are enticing. I have never been to Boston or NYC, but I think I'd prefer Boston.
I have been to USC's campus, but never toured the Lusk Center for RE's facilities. The campus has a reputation for being in a bad part of LA, but I think people like to make it out to be worse than it truly is.
Current student, ask me anything.
I will likely meet those of you fortunate enough to make the cut this time next year at open house.
Edit: Current student at Columbia MSRED, though I am knowledgeable on the GSD and MIT's programs
Last edited by thisisthemoment; 26 Jun 2013 at 8:29 PM. Reason: content
Hey thisisthemoment, its good of you to answer some questions for us hopefuls. Perhaps more will join the conversation once the thread has additional posts.Originally posted by thisisthemoment
I'd enjoy hearing a bit about your background before you entered the Columbia program, what you plan to do afterwards, and your take on the MsRED/MRED route vs. a traditional MBA with a real estate focus. I have more questions about the various programs you mentioned, but I am sure you will get to those later.
Thanks - I appreciate it.
Sure thing. I'm 24 y/o. Worked for a couple years in RED, data analysis, etc. I have my BA and my MA in mathematical economics.
After the program, I will probably get into ground-up development. There's a chance I would swing towards private equity given my numerical background but I think I like the different hats that developers get to wear a bit more. I'm not one for things being repetitive.
I think MBA vs. MSRED is a very personal question. I know that I had no interest in an MBA, they are a dime a dozen, and it would have just been watering down what I know I wanted to do. We have an MBA with real estate focus here at CBS but I think it's more for kids who worked at big banks and simply want to shift into the PE field or perhaps just manage the real estate for a big bank. Either way, our MSRED alumni hold jobs in literally every place and field imaginable. It all comes down to what you really want to learn. If you think you like RED but aren't sure and want a splash of it, do the MBA. If you're gung-ho about real estate development and less interested in the flash of an MBA then go for the MSRED.
Honestly, the best advice I can have is to be passionate about what you do. You simply won't survive the intensity of somewhere like Columbia if you don't like the material. I leave my apartment at 8am and come home around midnight-2am every day because of our summer workload. You can't put in those kind of hours if you aren't REALLY into what you want to do.
Also, bear in mind that the MSRED at Columbia is in the architecture school and as such much of what we do is viewed through the lens of space construction and value creation.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the response. I have a similar view regarding the MBA with a RE concentration vs. MSRED. Due to the fact that I have an undergraduate business degree and am focused on real estate development as a career, the thought of sitting through certain core MBA classes is a bit painful. In contrast, I think I would enjoy every minute (or close to every minute) of the real estate-focused courses required by the various MRED/MSRED programs.
I'd enjoy hearing more about your experience at Columbia thus far thisisthemoment. Why did you select Columbia and what is your opinion of your classmates thus far. Columbia's willingness to accept applicants with no prior real estate experience really bucks the trend and I can't decide whether its a strategy or not. My guess is that the admissions committee would rather make a decision based on the review of each application rather than place a blanket pre-requisite on all applicants (which I think is a good thing).
Since arriving at Columbia, what have you learned regarding the program's ability to place graduates into compelling RED jobs?
Thanks
thisisthemoment:
Sounds like you've known RE was the way you wanted to go early on in your career, and I must say, its really impressive you've earned both a BA and MA and enrolled in Columbia's MSRED at a younger age. I know you said you had some experience with MIT and the GSD's respective RED programs, and I'd like to hear how they may or may not have responded to your age and experience levels when applying to those schools. While I feel like I'm on the younger side of applying to MIT's program, I have to believe it varies based upon the applicant pool, what your background may be, and how much insight you have to your post-graduation pathway.
ecoates:
I do apologize for the delay in responding to your question about my visit to MIT. To be quite honest, I probably wrote my response two or three times, but never posted it after getting sidetracked at work.
In short, I thought the facilities at MIT were a bit on the smaller, more intimate side (coming from architecture school, where a complex of buildings was filled with dedicated resources) but also benefited from their close proximity to the department of planning and architecture. I could sense there would ultimately be a lot of blending of course material between real estate (business and finance), design and planning theory.
Since I did not have a scheduled visit, I wasn't sure what I would experience showing up unannounced. This was a Friday afternoon in September, so I didn't know how many students or faculty would still be on campus. However, I was surprised at how accommodating the staff was to show me around, give me a full rundown of the course outline, and provide me with information on the year-long curriculum, various thesis topics from graduated and current students, and even lend me feedback on my application process. I also was informally introduced to a couple of students who happened to be in the hallway, and spoke with them briefly about what they liked and such. All in all, it was a great visit, and I do want to attend their open house some time in the fall.
Unfortunately, I think I was so surprised at how accommodating they were, I forgot to ask them about their website status. I still don't know why they aren't updating it with more information.
I also should mention during my visit, I did not have a car to get around. I was staying with a friend who lived just off of Hanover Street in the north end, and it was really easy to catch the T to get to Kendall. The campus itself is really walkable, and felt a little less pretentious than being on Harvard's campus (though, I suppose that's not fair to say, since I only spent a few hours on both campuses). The City of Boston is a really great place, but I would definitely give both cities (NYC and Boston) a chance. People have strong feelings about one or the other usually.
It looks like MIT's Center for Real Estate has revamped their website. Perhaps they have been reading this thread?
It seems to largely be the same information that was on the old website, but its great to know they haven't completely forgotten about their web presence. I emailed the CRE and inquired about the open house for potential students in the fall. They replied that information, including dates, will be posted on the website in the next few weeks.
That's great news. I like the new layout, and hopefully it suggests we'll see an uptick in their online news postings.
I'll probably visit again in the fall for the open house (last year, I believe it was in mid-late October). Hopefully, we'll be seeing each other there.
On another note, I wanted to ask when you took your GMAT. I've been thinking about getting back into the studying grind again (just finished my LEED accreditation) and your score is right in the range in which I'd hope to score as well. Did you have any difficulty breaking through the 700 barrier? Any tips you care to share?
I'm glad to hear that MIT's program is designed to blend the quantitative aspects of real estate (finance, entitlements) with the qualitative (design, master planning). In my opinion, any developer worth his or her salt should place equal emphasis on the two in order to impact the built environment in a positive manner. From Columbia's website, it is easy to see that their MsRED program does not neglect design and planning, but this was a little harder to sniff out via the web presence of MIT.
As far as the GMAT is concerned, I would advise anyone shooting for a score above 700+ to set aside 3 months, study with the intent to kill, complete the test, and then move on. That's the strategy The most powerful thing one can do, in my opinion, is put down your $250 to book a test date right off the back to ensure the mental clock starts ticking. I used Manhattan GMAT materials + the Official Guide and felt well-prepared as the MGMAT practice tests, particularly the quant sections, are more difficult than the actual GMAT. I attempted to study 2 hours on weeknights (except for Friday) and 3-4 hours on both Saturday and Sunday. I would typically take a practice test on Saturday morning and then spend Sunday completing an in-depth review of my mistakes before planning out my study for the coming week.
Overall, I think a 700+ achievable for anyone with native language skills and the ability to put in the time on reviving all those lost math skills from high school. Time management and being able to strategically guess on questions that are going to take too long are the keys. If you can sacrifice for 2-3 months and be a heat seeking missile, you will excel. If you want to PM me with your email address, I will happily share my study plan.
Yeah I think that intersection of design/business/planning is prevalent at most top-tier schools, but each one has its own formula. I'd be interested in looking at Columbia, if only to ask questions at their Studio-X tie-in's with the MSRED curriculum (I'm hopeful that the program I attend will have focus on international work and research). Perhaps thisisthemoment can help answer some of these questions. I suppose one drawback to only having a year for a Masters program is that there isn't much time to take advantage of all the resources available, regardless if its Columbia or MIT (or NYU or Harvard).
Thanks for sharing your tips on GMAT preparation. I've been using Veritas Prep for my initial studying, but you're absolutely correct when you say Manhattan GMAT has some pretty tough Quant practice problems (at least on average, more difficult than the VP practice problems). I'm sure I'll end up using a combination of the two programs for studying.
If you don't mind me asking, you mentioned you were targeting large scale developers in the Midwest/Southwest for your post-grad career. Any ideas what kind of role you'd want to take on working for them?
Sorry for the delays, we are being absolutely hammered with work.
To be frank, I only applied to Columbia. It's the only degree worth the paper it's printed on in the industry as far as I'm concerned. I don't mean to be condescending but if you look at the GSD's program, it's just a cash cow plain and simple. It's not an MSRED, it's just an MDesS with an RED concentration. I was originally going to apply but one of my mentors (an architecture faculty member) told me it wasn't worth applying and that she isn't impressed by the RED program there. My friend went to the open house and he said that it wasn't even dedicated to RED students, it was all of the MDesS students and they went through all of the concentrations for a few minutes. I think the kind of education you'd be getting there is pretty clear. You're buying a Harvard degree. The silver lining is that you get to take HBS classes and H Law classes but if you wanted to do that just go into those programs..ya dig?
As for MIT, I think it's again like the MBA/MSRED question, quite personal. Their class size is dramatically smaller (25-30 vs. 90) and, to be completely honest, I think a lot less dynamic.
We have 90 kids ranging from investment banking to architects to urban designers to mathematicians to former politicians. We have daughters of significant members of society in foreign countries and guys that are as diverse as an Ivy League-educated dude from Brooklyn who's all tattooed up and wears white tees (and is one of the most eloquent, brilliant dudes I know) to classic sculpted hair/biceps wall street guys. Class profile has people from Taiwan, China, Atlanta, Cali, Thailand, Indonesia, NYC, Boston, Chicago, Buffalo, Korea, India, Maryland, Delaware, Pakistan, Iraq, England, Spain, Mexico, France....just to name some off the top of my head. We have more hard knocks classmates from the Bronx/Brooklyn and socialites from the Upper East Side. The faculty here are unrivaled and all gurus in their fields and my classmates are equally brilliant. It's the perfect crucible for growth.
MIT you're getting a smaller, less dynamic group of students. Perhaps that's more your style and you'd like things to be a bit more personal but I think that having the same 20 people around me all year would kill me. 90 keeps it interesting and there's always so much to learn from each other. You can go to the class profile on the MIT page, close your eyes and alternate "banking, development, banking, development...." all the way down and be 95% accurate.
Don't get me wrong, the faculty at MIT are great and Bill Wheaton is a great economist but one gets the impression that these are faculty that MIT is having do their regular jobs and then also partake in the real estate program as an ancillary.
All of our faculty have their own firms. They all teach for our program exclusively and are heavy hitters in the NYC/global scene. Just have a look around each respective website and I think it'll become clear to you what the right choice is.
Now, this is not to say that everything is peachy keen at Columbia. We have our fair share of drama with such a tight-knit, high-intensity group of people. Things get cliquey, people talk shit behind your back but smile in your face, etc. This is the highest level of the game and you need to be careful who you trust. If you come here expecting that it will be like undergrad or all fun and games you will be in for a wake up call. People are here to climb the social ladder and they will stop at nothing to make sure it happens. There is less a sense of teamwork and more a sense of direct competition.
As for job placement, the onus is really on you. Our alumni hold down jobs in everywhere imaginable all around the industry. We feed into development, private equity, investment banking corporate finance, ground-up development, etc. I have met alumni who work at Goldman Sachs and I've met alumni that are still looking for jobs. You need to be ready to hustle to find a job. If you think having a Columbia degree will make everyone in the land bow to you, you're wrong. However, if you put the degree to work for you then it will. Alumni ask about solid students in the class all the time and people regularly find jobs through faculty (benefits of them not being purely academic). You will get exactly out of this program what you put into it.
Again, I hope this helps you all. Cheers.
Fisch:
I am planning to target a "development associate" or "assistant project manager" position with a company likes Hines Interests, Related Company, Forest City, etc. My past experience as a project manager was for a small real estate firm focused on New Urbanist communities and smaller infill projects. I loved being able to touch all aspects of the ground-up development process and the way the company approached development (walkability), but there wasn't a lot of training or many processes. I think a project management position where one is tasked with preparing pro formas, keeping the project on budget and on schedule, and interfacing with the project team is the best training for anyone who hopes to start their own development firm one day.
thisisthemoment:
Excellent post and thank you for taking the time to share your insights with us. I have been very impressed with the passion and commitment of Columbia's program director (based on what I've read) and the size of the program is just right, in my opinion. I am a big believer in the use of adjunct professors and Columbia seems to be employing this tactic masterfully.
One other point I'd like to get your opinion on is Columbia's ability to place graduates in job around the nation. Do you feel that the program is as compelling for those who aren't necessarily interested in staying in the NYC area post graduation? I also noticed through research that the program has hired a full time career services coordinator. Do you see this hire having a noticeable impact on the placement of graduates? Hopefully hustling for the right position isn't too much of an issue for your classmates - hustling (in a good way) is part of the real estate industry's DNA in my opinion.
Looks as though MIT just secured a date for their MSRED Open House.
http://mitcre.mit.edu/news/msred-open-house
I was happy to see them put up the date as well. I am making tentative plans to attend and Boston should be beautiful in mid October. I hope they'll allow visitors to sit in on some of the classes earlier in the day as well. Perhaps thisisthemoment can let us know when Columbia plans to have their open house?
We're all entitled to our opinion, but the hyperbole is unnecessary and inaccurate. There are several solid graduate RE programs just in the Northeast, must less across the US. It really comes down to geography, fit, and personal preference.
Full disclosure: I applied and was accepted to Columbia, MIT, and Cornell for 2013.
Losantiville
Thanks for chiming in. It sounds as if you will be starting some sort of graduate program this fall. Do you mind sharing any insights or stories from your application process, impressions of each program, etc.?
My hope is that current, future, and past students from all of the highly-regarded real estate programs will participate in this discussion.
I'm attending the Baker Program in Real Estate at Cornell this fall. I'd suggest looking back at the 2013 MSRED thread, which may answer some questions and shed some light on my insights.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48087
Unfortunately, real estate masters programs suffer from a lack of good comparative data. They're small and relatively few in number. There isn't a lot of chatter on other message boards about them. This leads to a select few people getting on here and touting how superior the program of their choosing is to all others. I believe that a few programs do stand out, for various reasons. Cornell was the best program for me personally and I think it gets an unfair reputation for its location and two year duration. But I'd be making a fool of myself to suggest it's the only degree worth the paper it's printed on.
"Unfortunately, real estate masters programs suffer from a lack of good comparative data. They're small and relatively few in number. There isn't a lot of chatter on other message boards about them."
Ain't it the truth. Aside from some sparse forums on Wall Street Oasis and The Grad Cafe, there really isn't a good discussion forum for Real Estate Graduate Programs. I feel as though they routinely get lumped in or assumed to be part of an MBA-focus. It's nice that we've kept a good thread going for discussion purposes, but I had hoped MSRED programs would have more individualized data on class profiles, admittance rates, etc.
Losantiville, to echo what ecoates was asking, did you have any stories or have any wisdom about your application process that you think might be useful for incoming applicants to be aware of? When you were visiting these schools, did you find yourselves meeting and interacting the same prospective applicants?
Quote