Government Shut down, do you care?

[otterpop]

You had me till then - but funding Government at this point, with our current fiscal challenges still not over, would require defunding other things - now what do you propose we cut?

I think every federal agency and every federally funded project should feel the cuts in an equal percentage. That way no one's pet project or needed service gets eliminated and everyone has to make do with their equitable piece of the pie.

What that percentage is, I do not know, because I am not privy to that information. But let's just say it is 7 percent. Then Congress passes a budget where everyone dining on the federal teat walks away with 7 percent less of that sweet taxpayer milk in their belly. But by the same token, no little piglet gets pushed aside to starve by a bigger (better lobbied) piglet.

The bad news is WIC has to go on operating with less, but then so does defense.

And after they pass the budget, then the Congress and the President, if they really are serious about making things better, will begin the hard work to make next year's budget work. But they have to start on that arduous task one minute after the gavel sounds approving this year's budget.

But, let's face it, this budget crisis isn't as much about our country's fiscal condition as it is a turf fight between Republicans and Democrats. Certain members of Congress don't like a certain law passed by Congress and affirmed by the Supreme Court. And they are perfectly willing to throw needy kids, the poor and the elderly in front of the train in hopes of derailing it.

[Tide]

I think every federal agency and every federally funded project should feel the cuts in an equal percentage. That way no one's pet project or needed service gets eliminated and everyone has to make do with their equitable piece of the pie.

This is the dumbest way to save money. This was attempted and failed miserably during sequestration. I forget where I read it but I remember someone equating scraping sea-gull poop off buoys in the ocean and taking 1% off their budget means 1% less sea-gull poop gets scraped off when you take 1% of HUD, EPA, or Defense major things happen, you're just not 1% less effective at your job.

I really think line by line cuts to programs (yes it might hurt some pork filled project from the past decade) but that needs to end as well. Maybe all pork funded projects should get cut first. Then we'll see where the chips lay.

I agree this isn't the "Cliff" we always hear of and it is full of partisan bickering, but we can't just keep extending the ceiling every time this happens and if we keep doing it there will be similar show downs due jour each time.

[Mastiff]

(ask Tasman how that's working for him).

Mr. Tasman, huh? Mr. Tasman! Since when does a wiseguy like you deserve an explanation from a giant... like Mr. Tasman.

[hilldweller]

This is the dumbest way to save money. This was attempted and failed miserably during sequestration. I forget where I read it but I remember someone equating scraping sea-gull poop off buoys in the ocean and taking 1% off their budget means 1% less sea-gull poop gets scraped off when you take 1% of HUD, EPA, or Defense major things happen, you're just not 1% less effective at your job.

There is a lot of fat that can be trimmed though.

[Tide]

There is a lot of fat that can be trimmed though.

You obviously didn't read past my first sentence.

[Duke Of Dystopia]

I think every federal agency and every federally funded project should feel the cuts in an equal percentage. That way no one's pet project or needed service gets eliminated and everyone has to make do with their equitable piece of the pie.

What that percentage is, I do not know, because I am not privy to that information. But let's just say it is 7 percent. Then Congress passes a budget where everyone dining on the federal teat walks away with 7 percent less of that sweet taxpayer milk in their belly. But by the same token, no little piglet gets pushed aside to starve by a bigger (better lobbied) piglet.

The bad news is WIC has to go on operating with less, but then so does defense.

And after they pass the budget, then the Congress and the President, if they really are serious about making things better, will begin the hard work to make next year's budget work. But they have to start on that arduous task one minute after the gavel sounds approving this year's budget.

But, let's face it, this budget crisis isn't as much about our country's fiscal condition as it is a turf fight between Republicans and Democrats. Certain members of Congress don't like a certain law passed by Congress and affirmed by the Supreme Court. And they are perfectly willing to throw needy kids, the poor and the elderly in front of the train in hopes of derailing it.

Your idea works if you give the cut to an agency and let the department head distribute the belt tightening. That way the right nooks and crannies get hit. The brute force of sequester is not working. Also, creating a bonus such that coming under budget is somehow a benefit and a continuation of cutting fat.

However, what happens when you do get to the bare bones? Then what? If you start with the idea, there is always fat, from outside an agency, how would you know when there is none left? These are questions that are needed before you just start throwing cuts around everywhere.

[hilldweller]

Open the Grand Canyon!

[chupacabra]

Lease the mineral rights to the Grand Canyon to a Chinese mining consortium.

The sequester hasn't worked very well. It's a lousy way to trim the fat. It hits the necessary stuff like as hard as it hits the boondoggles. It'd make more sense to me to kill off or restructure the programs/projects/departments/agencies that need it.

[imaplanner]

Here is a summary of what I've heard on right wing radio this morning:

1) obama has the ability to open and close whatever he wants in a shutdown and so therefore all of the closures of anything is all his fault and he is doing it to specifically spite real Americans like the WW2 vets and this proves he hates America.

2) Americans are putting the blame on republicans because the media is completely for democrats and most Amrricans are stupid.

3) [ this is the scary one] Federal workers complaining about not getting paid are disgusting. Federal workers are scum and parasites and we don't need them. Not only that, but we should march on their houses and take their cars and phones and computers and toys that they didn't earn because that was OUR money not theirs. They didn't earn one penny and us real Americans have had it with paying them our hard earned money.


I am not making this up. Listening to the radio this morning was downright frightening the level of pure hate directed at government employees.

[rcgplanner]

Here is a summary of what I've heard on right wing radio this morning:

1) obama has the ability to open and close whatever he wants in a shutdown and so therefore all of the closures of anything is all his fault and he is doing it to specifically spite real Americans like the WW2 vets and this proves he hates America.

2) Americans are putting the blame on republicans because the media is completely for democrats and most Amrricans are stupid.

3) [ this is the scary one] Federal workers complaining about not getting paid are disgusting. Federal workers are scum and parasites and we don't need them. Not only that, but we should march on their houses and take their cars and phones and computers and toys that they didn't earn because that was OUR money not theirs. They didn't earn one penny and us real Americans have had it with paying them our hard earned money.


I am not making this up. Listening to the radio this morning was downright frightening the level of pure hate directed at government employees.

I was reading this article about the Antideficiency Act, which is the law that governs what is open and closed. Any violation of the law could bring fine and/or imprisionment. I wouldn't be at all shocked if someone from the admin accidently oversteps this law that there will be some TP'er who will demand that said official is prosecuted. Americans are placing the blame at the feet of the GOP because it is the worst kept secret that this shut down would be over today if the House leadership would bring a clean CR to the floor. The comment about federal workers is insulting, who the fu*k do they think processes their social security checks or makes sure planes don't crash, or inspects our food. I swear to god the reality distortion field of the right-wing is mind boggling. Is there some fat that could be cut from the government, of course, to insinuate that these workers don't deserve their money is disgusting.

[Whose Yur Planner]

Lease the mineral rights to the Grand Canyon to a Chinese mining consortium

Don't even joke about that sort of thing. I'm sure there are people who would that is a great idea.

[luckless pedestrian]

Here is a summary of what I've heard on right wing radio this morning:

1) obama has the ability to open and close whatever he wants in a shutdown and so therefore all of the closures of anything is all his fault and he is doing it to specifically spite real Americans like the WW2 vets and this proves he hates America.

2) Americans are putting the blame on republicans because the media is completely for democrats and most Amrricans are stupid.

3) [ this is the scary one] Federal workers complaining about not getting paid are disgusting. Federal workers are scum and parasites and we don't need them. Not only that, but we should march on their houses and take their cars and phones and computers and toys that they didn't earn because that was OUR money not theirs. They didn't earn one penny and us real Americans have had it with paying them our hard earned money.


I am not making this up. Listening to the radio this morning was downright frightening the level of pure hate directed at government employees.

every once in a while I listen to Howie or some right wing talk radio becasue I think it's important to understand the whole picture, as in, why is everyone os mad - and I often get creeped out like this - scary

[kjel]

I heard on the news that as a result of the federal government shutdown, the WIC program is no longer funded.

Hey, great job there, Congress. Take fruit, vegetables and milk from needy children.

If this goes on much longer, I think the people need to get together, buy up 535 rails from Home Depot, 535 feather pillows from Walmart and enough tar to make the feathers stick. Then the taxpayers should sit by the steps of the Capitol warming up the tar. Have someone bring in a message that the Congress has two hours to do their elected jobs and fund the government, or else we're coming in and dragging every member of Congress out for a tar and feathering and a quick ride out of town on a rail.

Or, taking a less violent tack, maybe we should just all send an email or letter to our respective representatives and senators advising them they should begin looking into other employment options because this will be their last term of office.

Or, maybe the Constitution should specify that Representatives have not only be at least 25 years old, they also have to act like they are at least 25 years old, and the same goes for the Senators, be and act at least 30.

One of my daughter's school friends from South Carolina has a toddler and a 6 month old baby (sit down, she's married) and receive WIC for both the boys which covers formula for the baby and milk, juice, peanut butter, eggs, and cereal for the toddler. Her office contacted her and told her that her vouchers would be honored for the month of October but after that, if funding isn't restored before November 1st the subsequent monthly vouchers will not be usable. Her husband works but makes barely more than minimum wage and she stays home with the boys. Ironically they make too much for food stamps which have not been affected by the shutdown.

Your idea works if you give the cut to an agency and let the department head distribute the belt tightening. That way the right nooks and crannies get hit. The brute force of sequester is not working. Also, creating a bonus such that coming under budget is somehow a benefit and a continuation of cutting fat.

However, what happens when you do get to the bare bones? Then what? If you start with the idea, there is always fat, from outside an agency, how would you know when there is none left? These are questions that are needed before you just start throwing cuts around everywhere.

Kinda like shooting a fly with a shotgun. The fly is dead but a lot more damage has been incurred killing it.

[ColoGI]

I am not making this up. Listening to the radio this morning was downright frightening the level of pure hate directed at government employees.

Eew. Thanks for listing so we don't have to.

Aside but related, many years ago now I used to be a landscaper (construction) for a company that did residential subdivisions. In this one development we'd follow a couple of tradesmen who would open the side doors of their vans and blast Hate Radio into the house they were working in. So 5 days a week I'd have the privilege of listening to a young Rush Limbaugh practice his hayden to a local audience before he went big time. None of the other trades could tell these faithful listeners that the hayden wasn't actually factual, and after a few weeks one guy wasn't talking to anyone at all.

[imaplanner]

Eew. Thanks for listing so we don't have to.

Aside but related, many years ago now I used to be a landscaper (construction) for a company that did residential subdivisions. In this one development we'd follow a couple of tradesmen who would open the side doors of their vans and blast Hate Radio into the house they were working in. So 5 days a week I'd have the privilege of listening to a young Rush Limbaugh practice his hayden to a local audience before he went big time. None of the other trades could tell these faithful listeners that the hayden wasn't actually factual, and after a few weeks one guy wasn't talking to anyone at all.

I've always been very curious about why and how people think the way they do. The hate coming from the far right wing right now is unlike anything I've ever witnessed though.

So on the topic of the shutdown, we have deadlines for the end of the year to get agricultural tax reduction contracts done so ranchers can get a huge tax break. Nearly all of our ranchers are proud tea partier types. In order to complete some of these contracts we need USDA data that is not available due to the shutdown. If this doesn't get resolved quickly some of these tea partiers will see their taxes skyrocket. Somewhat ironic I suppose.

It's really easy to pretend like the government is all bad and useless, and people inclined to be angry and lazy in their views can easily go there. It just isn't even remotely the case. Real people, tea partiers even, will be hurt by the actions they are supporting.

Attacking government workers, or any workers at all, just for doing their jobs (did anyone see that video of the republican verbally attacking the park ranger for the shutdown he voted for?) is absolutely disgusting.

[michaelskis]

Here is a summary of what I've heard on right wing radio this morning:

1) obama has the ability to open and close whatever he wants in a shutdown and so therefore all of the closures of anything is all his fault and he is doing it to specifically spite real Americans like the WW2 vets and this proves he hates America.

2) Americans are putting the blame on republicans because the media is completely for democrats and most Amrricans are stupid.

3) [ this is the scary one] Federal workers complaining about not getting paid are disgusting. Federal workers are scum and parasites and we don't need them. Not only that, but we should march on their houses and take their cars and phones and computers and toys that they didn't earn because that was OUR money not theirs. They didn't earn one penny and us real Americans have had it with paying them our hard earned money.


I am not making this up. Listening to the radio this morning was downright frightening the level of pure hate directed at government employees.

Why do you listen to that crap?

On a related note, I hear that the First Lady is not going to Tweet as much because of the shut down. I did not realize that her tweeting schedule was determined by federal funding.

Additionally, I was talking to a friend at the conference this afternoon and he said that he was in DC during the last shut down and the indoor venues were closed but the outdoor venues remained open. This time, the government is putting armed guards at these outdoor venues to keep people from going in... which would be more security and cost than if the government was open.

The democrats are just getting ridiculous in trying to hurt the average joe on the street, in hopes of putting pressure on the republicans to fold.

I am also fascinated by this essential v unessential split. If it is doing so much harm, maybe they are essential... And we should quit paying both arms of congress and the president instead. I assure you a deal would be struck in minutes.

[ColoGI]

I...

The hate coming from the far right wing right now is unlike anything I've ever witnessed though.

So on the topic of the shutdown, we have deadlines for the end of the year to get agricultural tax reduction contracts done so ranchers can get a huge tax break. Nearly all of our ranchers are proud tea partier types. In order to complete some of these contracts we need USDA data that is not available due to the shutdown. If this doesn't get resolved quickly some of these tea partiers will see their taxes skyrocket. Somewhat ironic I suppose.

.

Their demographic is disappearing, so they are lashing out.

I'm supposed to travel to CA in two weeks to give some workshops. Two of my participants and ~1/6 of attendees on list are not going to show if this goes on & we'll have to reschedule.

[chupacabra]

I am also fascinated by this essential v unessential split

How so? Basically, if you not showing up for work could result in somebody either being hurt/killed or in government property being destroyed, you are "essential" and get to work for free. In my agency this is some of the cops and a couple IT guys.

If you are not essential, say admin, budget, a civil engineer, or the person who processes contracts or VA loan applications, you stay home and don't get paid.

[imaplanner]

Why do you listen to that crap?

On a related note, I hear that the First Lady is not going to Tweet as much because of the shut down. I did not realize that her tweeting schedule was determined by federal funding.

Additionally, I was talking to a friend at the conference this afternoon and he said that he was in DC during the last shut down and the indoor venues were closed but the outdoor venues remained open. This time, the government is putting armed guards at these outdoor venues to keep people from going in... which would be more security and cost than if the government was open.

The democrats are just getting ridiculous in trying to hurt the average joe on the street, .

Well like usual, I don't have the solid source of a "friend", but NPR tells me national parks were all closed in the last shutdown. So I'm going to go ahead and believe NPR over your "friend". http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...ment-shutdowns

National parks, if you don't know, include most outdoor memorials.

Anyways, there are tons of liability and operational concerns that you consistently ignore in your desire to blame democrats for the fact that the GOP is refusing to fund the government. That's really the incredible thing. You acknowledge that having the government shutdown hurts the average joe, and even though its the republicans who have shut down the government until they get "something that they don't even know what it is" you blame the democrats for not giving up their signature legislation of the last 10 years.

As to why I listen to talk radio, its because I'm curious. Its what feeds the talking points both in the rightwing media and among right wing politicians. It also helps to be able to know what people like you will say, before you say it. So that generally I will have already researched something to know whther it is true or not by the time the talking point gets repeated to me by people such as yourself. It's nice to be prepared for the misinformation that gets spit at me by people like yourself (unfortunately I deal with alot of these people on a regular basis).

Edit to add: I guess alot of this frustration comes from the fact that so many people who share this view of yours just don't understand how government works, and aren't terribly interesting in informing themselves, but it does not stop them from saying ridiculous things and blaming others for things they clearly don't understand. I hear it on lett wing talk also, but at the moment the ignorance and outright misinformation is pretty one sided. We generally also don't have a left wing version of mskis here to take issue with. I get a bit offended at you personally just because as a planner you should understand how government works but it seems that you don't really understand these things at all.

[Seana]

I'm starting to get the feeling that this government shutdown is the final chapter in a decade long (2003 - present) political stand-off.

Can you explain more clearly what you mean by this? I'm not really following.

Btrage's comment wasn't too clear to me, either. But since I likened my method of thinking to his earlier in this thread, I'll give it a stab.
He was referring to

EITHER:

(A) In the fall of 2001, the Senate and House unilaterally stood behind President Bush as he signed the Patriot Act and all that it entailed. From that time to the present, Congress never unilaterally stood behind a president again.

In early October 2002, Senator Obama spoke out against military intervention in Iraq to his constituents, and later that month he voted against it. Some other Democrats were equally vociferous, but for the most part, military intervention received bipartisan support. It sort of goes without saying that the longer the U.S. stayed in Iraq, the more discontent and vocal the Democrats became about the war.

In 2002 there was growing discontent among Democrats & Libertarians concerning warrantless wiretapping of U.S. family homes in the name of "homeland security". The result: in 2003, the Bush Administration grudgingly ended the "U.S. family homes" part of the warrantlless wiretapping.

President Bush's "Jobs and Growth Tax Relief and Reconciliation Act of 2003" accelerated the tax-rate cuts that had been enacted in 2001 and also *temporarily* reduced the tax rate on capital gains and dividends. The 2001 & 2003 Acts were perceived by most as disproportionately benefiting high-income people. The *temporary* tax cuts were extended again and again, until President Obama took a stand against them last year and they ended last January 1.

The above happenings in 2002-2003 were just a few harbingers of the current Congress divide and impasse.

Fast-forward to August, 2011: The "dress rehearsal", so to speak, when the Republicans wanted to defund Planned Parenthood and allegedly shut down the government over it.


OR/and:

(3) The 2003 airing of TV's West Wing Episode called "Shutdown"!!

***** SPOILER ALERT *****
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/...ment-shutdown/

[michaelskis]

Well like usual, I don't have the solid source of a "friend", but NPR tells me national parks were all closed in the last shutdown. So I'm going to go ahead and believe NPR over your "friend". http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...ment-shutdowns

National parks, if you don't know, include most outdoor memorials.

Anyways, there are tons of liability and operational concerns that you consistently ignore in your desire to blame democrats for the fact that the GOP is refusing to fund the government. That's really the incredible thing. You acknowledge that having the government shutdown hurts the average joe, and even though its the republicans who have shut down the government until they get "something that they don't even know what it is" you blame the democrats for not giving up their signature legislation of the last 10 years.

As to why I listen to talk radio, its because I'm curious. Its what feeds the talking points both in the rightwing media and among right wing politicians. It also helps to be able to know what people like you will say, before you say it. So that generally I will have already researched something to know whther it is true or not by the time the talking point gets repeated to me by people such as yourself. It's nice to be prepared for the misinformation that gets spit at me by people like yourself (unfortunately I deal with alot of these people on a regular basis).

Edit to add: I guess alot of this frustration comes from the fact that so many people who share this view of yours just don't understand how government works, and aren't terribly interesting in informing themselves, but it does not stop them from saying ridiculous things and blaming others for things they clearly don't understand. I hear it on lett wing talk also, but at the moment the ignorance and outright misinformation is pretty one sided. We generally also don't have a left wing version of mskis here to take issue with. I get a bit offended at you personally just because as a planner you should understand how government works but it seems that you don't really understand these things at all.

http://www.theartnewspaper.com/artic...-museums/30464

Oh look I can post links too. This one says that in the last one the museums along the national mall was closed.... But not the mall.

Personally, I don't care if you get offended. I doubt this guy is lying to me, but he said that he was able to walk up to Lincoln, and 1/2 the area in front was closed off because they were doing repairs. He commented that he was pissed because he wanted to go into the Air and Space museum.

I think it is stupid to spend more money on security of these monuments then it would cost to keep them open.

[rcgplanner]

http://www.theartnewspaper.com/artic...-museums/30464

Oh look I can post links too. This one says that in the last one the museums along the national mall was closed.... But not the mall.

Personally, I don't care if you get offended. I doubt this guy is lying to me, but he said that he was able to walk up to Lincoln, and 1/2 the area in front was closed off because they were doing repairs. He commented that he was pissed because he wanted to go into the Air and Space museum.

I think it is stupid to spend more money on security of these monuments then it would cost to keep them open.

Um, I read the article you linked and no where does it state the Mall remained open. But the US government has shut down before. The most recent shutdown, between December 1995 and January 1996, lasted 21 days. During that time, all museums along the National Mall were closed, according to the Washington City Paper. You must have the "Republican Truth Version" that includes that information. Why will you not admit that the votes are there to end this all? The House has the votes to pass a clean bill yet the House Leadership would rather hold press conferences about this not being a game. You could have fooled me, it seems to me like the GOP would rather hold these bullsh*t votes about funding only certain items in the Government. The fact that you are acting like the Republicans are being reasonable is delusional, it must be exhausting to have to warp everything to fit your story line. John Boehner is spineless, the fact that he would rather cause real tangible pain on the American people then stand up to the Tea Party shows how weak he is. The GOP needs to grow up, stop crying and get their work done otherwise they are going to be looking from the outside again in 2014.

[imaplanner]

http://www.theartnewspaper.com/artic...-museums/30464

Oh look I can post links too. This one says that in the last one the museums along the national mall was closed.... But not the mall.

Personally, I don't care if you get offended. I doubt this guy is lying to me, but he said that he was able to walk up to Lincoln, and 1/2 the area in front was closed off because they were doing repairs. He commented that he was pissed because he wanted to go into the Air and Space museum.

I think it is stupid to spend more money on security of these monuments then it would cost to keep them open.

It's fine that you don't care. I just felt like explaining my issues with you as I perceive them. I like to be as forthright about that stuff as possible. Anyways, where in your link does it say the mall wasn't closed? I must be missing something or you are misrepresenting your link?

[michaelskis]

It's fine that you don't care. I just felt like explaining my issues with you as I perceive them. I like to be as forthright about that stuff as possible. Anyways, where in your link does it say the mall wasn't closed? I must be missing something or you are misrepresenting your link?

See, that is what I like about you. You actually believe that the Government is in a better position to make decisions regarding your life than you are. And that is ok.

As for the link, you see that it says that the museums along the national mall were closed... It talks about all the indoor venues that closed their doors... Which they did. It does not say anything about the outdoor spaces like the national mall, Lincoln Memoral, or the other outdoor spaces. That is a bigger story than the indoor spaces.

The part that concerns me about you is that you seem to find government waisting money to be acceptable. As a planner, I would hope that you would better use taxpayer dollars for better purposes.

[Whose Yur Planner]

As for the link, you see that it says that the museums along the national mall were closed... It talks about all the indoor venues that closed their doors... Which they did. It does not say anything about the outdoor spaces like the national mall, Lincoln Memoral, or the other outdoor spaces. That is a bigger story than the indoor spaces.

That is the most feeble and convoluted attempt at logic I have ever seen-congrats you win the prize.