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Thread: Unpopular or unorthodox beliefs you hold

  1. #76
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Bturk, Those are good family entertainment. Zoolander - OMG!

  2. #77
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    I was referring to his role in Behind Enemy Lines - what crap!

  3. #78
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    OH, I though you meant the war between the beautiful people.

  4. #79
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Originally posted by El Guapo
    OH, I though you meant the war between the beautiful people.
    Who? Mugbub and Beaner? LOL

  5. #80
    Cyburbian El Feo's avatar
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    Re: MAYBE

    Originally posted by El Guapo
    I'm for &^%$& up the place and then leaving.
    I support what would surely be any anti-war liberal planner's worst nightmare: pave Iraq with glass and put up the world's biggest Wal*Mart Supercenter in Basra.

    But seriously, what's with all the puppet regime talk, BKM? We dismantled another militaristic, religio-fundamentalist regime in Japan 50 years ago, and now they seem to be thriving fairly well as an independent democracy. Why couldn't that happen in the Middle East? IMHO, folks should have a little more faith in America's contemporary aversion to "traditional" empire, and a whole HELL of a lot more faith in the Arabs' and Persians' ability to peacefully and rationally rule themselves, given an actual chance. It might take something akin to the denazification program in post-war Germany to purge the region of rabid theocratic kooks, but I think it can be done, with good result, if we're willing to see it through.
    "The fanatical Muslims despise America because it's all lapdancing and gay porn; the secular Europeans despise America because it's all born-again Christians hung up on abortion; the anti-Semites despise America because it's controlled by Jews. Too Jewish, too Christian, too Godless, America is also too isolationist, except when it's too imperialist." -- Mark Steyn

  6. #81
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Re: Re: MAYBE

    Originally posted by El Feo
    I support what would surely be any anti-war liberal planner's worst nightmare: pave Iraq with glass and put up the world's biggest Wal*Mart Supercenter in Basra.
    In '91 the shopping in Basra was quite sad. But you could get fresh goat just about everywhere in town.

  7. #82

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    I hope you're right, El Feo.

    El Feo: Let's hope you are right.

    Since we are still on the "unpopular thoughts" thread, let me just express my skepticism. They are still whining about the loss of Spain. As an ideology, Islam does not provide a lot of room for liberal democracy. Does every society have to be a liberal democracy? No-but the societies controlled by absolutist theocracies or corrupt states have to be watched very closely. Maybe my argument is even supprotive of the Bush doctrine? I doubt it-I think we would be getting into an unending quagmire.

    Does that make me Anti-Semitic? Not in the silly luny right wing way. But,. after years of watching the bombings back in forth in Israel and the Middle East, maybe so-in the broader sense.

    And Mugbub-I don't care what you think about this admittedly negative attitude. I say a pox on all their houses!

  8. #83

    Bash Away

    Before I was sticking up for the little guys that seem to be looked down upon on these forums. I'm talking about Mullets everybody loves to hate. There just Mullets, no need to think they're second class. They do most of the labor in this country, so be nice to Mulls or they might revolt like in the California seaport strikes.

    BKM, when it comes to poxing and paving Iraq you can count me in. The situation in the Mideast has gone far enough- it needs to be dealt with swiflty and effectively whatever the costs. As soon as Ramadan is over the war will begin. Thank the good lord that the GOP has the power. The biggest problem will be the protesters here in the USA. Maybe Mullet construction workers will bash the heads of these 21st century hippies like they did back during Nixon. How 'bout it El Guapo, ready to bash some heads?

  9. #84
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by BKM
    Does that make me Anti-Semitic? Not in the silly luny right wing way. But,. after years of watching the bombings back in forth in Israel and the Middle East, maybe so-in the broader sense.
    Name the last three politicians that got in trouble for anti-semitism, besides Billy Graham, The Entire Nation of France and Pat Buchanan - Whom no one claims.

    They are in no decending order...
    Her and her dad!
    http://www.cynthia2002.com/images/cyn2.jpg

    Keep Hope Alive - Just not in "Hymme Town."
    http://www.rainbowpush.org/photogall...apresident.jpe

    And give me Twana's main man Al
    http://www.jewishpost.com/jewishpost/jp0201c.gif

    Now, I'm not saying we don't have our nut jobs also, but it is not an exclusively "right-wing" thing.

    Originally posted by mugbub1
    How 'bout it El Guapo, ready to bash some heads?
    I'm too old and fat now days, but I thank you anyway for your kind offer to kill an Arab Terrorist for Gawd and Country.
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 21 Nov 2006 at 1:39 PM.

  10. #85
    I was refering to the protesters here at home- what do we do about them?

  11. #86
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Oh - your talking about pulling a Kent State?

    Nope, we just let em whine. Then we vote against their art subsidies, PBS, NPR, and the free needle programs come election time. Its the American way. And it works by-Gawd!

  12. #87
    Cyburbian Habanero's avatar
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    Oh my God. Hell just froze over, I actually think I agree with something Muggie said!

    I don't like seeing the little hippy kids protesting. It really bugs me. I mean, where I grew up the hippy kids were just kids that had money and wanted to piss their parents off. Maybe if they went of on some peace keeping mission or something.. Ugh, maybe it's just my recent attitude and knowing wanna be hippies out here that aren't more than drop-outs who think they are cleaver while they talk out of thier arses about politics and everything else under the sun after the biggest freakin' toke and think they are smart. The same people who think an inititave for decriminalizing weed, that also does the same for other harder drugs, and makes the cops hvae to pass out the mary-j for medical purposes would actually pass. And not to say I didn't have my share of fun, but I'd much rather grow up and become a responsible functioning part of society.
    When Jesus said "love your enemies", he probably didn't mean kill them.

  13. #88
         
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    Originally posted by SW MI Planner
    Fort Wayne, Indiana???? I am a mere 45 minute drive north on I-69. (For all of those not from this area, that is so not a sexual comment, position, etc.)

    I firmly believe that the only people who truly like Fort Wayne, Indiana were born and raised there--Fawn Leibowicz notwithstanding.

  14. #89
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    OK im gonna get fried for this

    I don't see the problem with protests as long as they are peaceful. Hell im stuck in a rock in a hard place-I grew up in a military home that was also very much into teaching social activism.

    While I think there is a big ass problem in the middle east im not ready to see us blindly march off to Iraq and kill.

    Yup im gonna protest-but im protesting the president NOT the troops-heck I do the send the troops a few dozen cards every Christmas, etc., im not a hippy, I have never done drugs and I happen to own a gun.

    My backside plans to be down on the mall every chance I get expressing the rights that men IM very proud to call my family have fought and died to protect.

    it bugs the hell out of me we turn a blind eye to Israel doing God only knows what to folks yet we are going to invade another nation, preemptively (a first ever)

    THAT bothers me. But im damn proud to be an American.

    *puts on her teflon and waits for the fire*
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  15. #90

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    OK: Just got back from a frustrating meeting that took twice as long as it should have, so this is my chance to vent before I get real work done

    Dittos, Plannergirl. Mugwump and his ilk would still be bowing and scraping to the descendents of King George. After all, them scappy colonials don't know what good for them. Just listen to King George and his redcoats. George Washington et al are just spoiled whiners.

    The problem is: I admit that I am a classic fence sitter. I say a pox on all their houses.

    1. I think the proposed war on Iraq is a diversion from real problems the country faces. We are still cuddling up to the Saudis, for God's sake. Let alone our ongoing BILLIONS pumped into that police state and political cesspool (Israel/Palestine) (money sent to both sides, for God's sake!)

    2. I don't trust the current regime at all. You may make fun of the lazy, non-productive hippies. I am far more frightened of people like Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft who have real power and real money and are, to me, not very believable. Their so-called "realpolitic" has partly CREATED the monster we see in Sadaam. What a buch of lying hypocrites. Plus, much of the Republican leadership in Congress is in bed with wacko confederates and religious nuts that make the Taliban look soft.

    3. I don't like Sadaam. I feel very little sympathy for the "poor oppressed Iraqi people." I thoroughly dislike current fundamentalist and authoritarian/corrupt Arab culture, and I really don't care if they invented math 500 years ago. The purity of fanatical belief is frightening and intense.

    They get the government they deserve (even if we, or at least previous admionistrations, helped Sadaam).

    4. I still think the war will be a purposeless quagmire that will destroy the world economy and lead to a decade of increasing terrorist violence.

    5. I am not a peacenick who believes that giving money to the middle east will solve things (I mean, how much money has been pumped into that desert hole over the last 50 years through the oil industry. If they can't build a decent society on that much money, how will a little bit of foreign aid pumped into unstable, weak "democracies" solve anything.

    El Guapo: You are right of course about leftist identity politicans being antisemitic, too. Idiocy is not confined to any side of the spectrum (Hence the wimps on the left whining about the poor Iraqui people. Maybe Sadaam should sell one of his 45 palaces to buy food???)

    I was just scanning www.portalofevil.com the other day, which had some particularly juicy Anti-Semitic far right religious sites posted for our amusement.

    Mugbub would LOVE the Portal of Evil.
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 21 Nov 2006 at 1:39 PM.

  16. #91
    Cyburbian El Feo's avatar
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    God, I like you BKM.

    Finally, a fence-sitter (you do realize you're not on the fence as much as you think though, though, right?) that I can have a calm, rational disagreement/discussion with. Here are a few thoughts in answer to your concerns:

    Originally posted by BKM
    1. I think the proposed war on Iraq is a diversion from real problems the country faces. We are still cuddling up to the Saudis, for God's sake. Let alone our ongoing BILLIONS pumped into that police state and political cesspool (Israel/Palestine) (money sent to both sides, for God's sake!)
    Please tell me you haven't forgotten September 11th just 14 months later - you don't think that points to the biggest problem this country faces, or that it's real? One thing at a time with regards to the middle east. Saud delenda est. And I think it will be, along with Iran, Syria, and Lebanon, pretty quickly after Saddam is replaced, and perhaps without much of a push from us. As for characterizing Israel as a police state, I strongly disagree. Have you not heard that Sharon's government is collapsing? In a police state, Sharon wouldn't have much to worry about.

    2. I don't trust the current regime at all. You may make fun of the lazy, non-productive hippies. I am far more frightened of people like Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft who have real power and real money and are, to me, not very believable. Their so-called "realpolitic" has partly CREATED the monster we see in Sadaam. What a buch of lying hypocrites. Plus, much of the Republican leadership in Congress is in bed with wacko confederates and religious nuts that make the Taliban look soft.
    If you're paying very close attention, I think you'll find that conservative hawks like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and yes, Bush & Cheney actually buy the "root cause" argument of much of the left - they're just politically smart enough to know they can't say it. I can't explain it any better than this Christopher Hitchens piece in today's Slate.

    3. I don't like Sadaam. I feel very little sympathy for the "poor oppressed Iraqi people." I thoroughly dislike current fundamentalist and authoritarian/corrupt Arab culture, and I really don't care if they invented math 500 years ago. The purity of fanatical belief is frightening and intense.
    I'm on board for much of this one, with the exception that I do have a pretty strong sympathy for the poor oppressed Iraqi people.

    They get the government they deserve (even if we, or at least previous admionistrations, helped Sadaam).
    It's not a democracy - so I don't think you can seriously argue this point. At least, I can't be persuaded. As I've mentioned before, I think liberal democracies can work in that part of the world.

    4. I still think the war will be a purposeless quagmire that will destroy the world economy and lead to a decade of increasing terrorist violence.
    And the alternative would be...(drumroll, please)...a world of fear, where we do nothing to at least try and stop terrorists and their state sponsors, where the world economy will be destroyed anyway, with decades of increasing terrorist violence.

    5. I am not a peacenick who believes that giving money to the middle east will solve things (I mean, how much money has been pumped into that desert hole over the last 50 years through the oil industry. If they can't build a decent society on that much money, how will a little bit of foreign aid pumped into unstable, weak "democracies" solve anything.
    I agree, but would go further - money doesn't work by itself, obviously, but I'll always go back to my tried and true examples of post-war Germany and Japan, which I think should be the model for building lasting democracies in the region.
    "The fanatical Muslims despise America because it's all lapdancing and gay porn; the secular Europeans despise America because it's all born-again Christians hung up on abortion; the anti-Semites despise America because it's controlled by Jews. Too Jewish, too Christian, too Godless, America is also too isolationist, except when it's too imperialist." -- Mark Steyn

  17. #92

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    You have good points, El Feo.

    I think where we disagree is that I am very afraid of Imperial Overreach. George Washington was absolutely right. I love my country, but I don't believe in American Exceptionalism and I don't think we have the right to establish an empire. The costs are too high.

    My fear is that the essay I just read in The London review of Books (3 October, 2002 Anatol Lieven-not on line) is spot on.

    And, I have serious doubts that trying to take over countries in the Middle East will work-I think that program will contribute to a far worse world of fear.

    There are no "easy" solutions. Because, I also believe that there are inherently differerent ways of looking at the world, I have more doubt about the future of western-style democracy in the Middle East.

    However, while this agnostic heathen would not do well under Sharia, I would do no better under the farther reaches of the Republican Party (The Party of God), either. Posters on this very board would line me up and shoot me for a variety of crimes.

    I guess I have no answers. I am just a lowly government bureaucrat lucky to have a job that allows me to post these rants.

  18. #93

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    Which brings us to another issue

    ie. "inherit" superiority of democracy as a way of governance, in the "western" perspective.

    At a local scale, perhaps it is true. But I do think that a benevolent (I stress that word) technocracy could do better at a national and global level.

    GB

  19. #94
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    This will get me lynched quicker then all of the stuff about others have written about gays, women, gov't, guns and religion.

    I don't really believe in concensus building or public participation / consultation. The culture of where I live and my bad experiences with dealing with the locals has soured me on these items.

    If they were so smart and cared so much about the land and resources (as they profess) they (the public) would not have created the mess we are in with respect to neighbours fighting neighbours, sprawl, heritage preservation and construction standards.

    Sometimes you need someone to tell you what needs to be done, without coddling the ignorant masses.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  20. #95

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    GBoy- Do you mean Singapore-style technocracy? As socially restrictive as it is, many would argue that Singapore is a good model. I wonder. Part of their success is providing a platform for multinationals. Maybe that is our only future? Yuck.

    I agree with you that it may be arrogant to assume that every country can be or should be a western-style "democracy." I have doubts about American exceptionalism.

    Not that I am a total relativist, either. When it comes to womens' rights, a culture that refuses to prosecute rape unless there are three male witnesses is worng, not just "culturally different" Of course, that culture is Pakistan, which is our ally on the War on Terror. And the Shrub administration has just appointed a woman to a major position who believes that the police should just stay out of situations where the hubbie is beating his wife "because that is just an interpersonal matter that the police can't understand"

    No more ranting, I promise.

  21. #96
    Cyburbian
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    this thread has jumped the shark

  22. #97
    Cyburbian Habanero's avatar
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    Originally posted by donk


    Sometimes you need someone to tell you what needs to be done, without coddling the ignorant masses.
    I can agree with that- I find it odd that the masses (in San Antonio) voted on taking flouride out of the water (a few years back) without ever figuring out where they are going to get the water from (the Colorado doesn't really have enough). Instead of building a resevior the build a stadium-

    It doesn't make sense to me-
    When Jesus said "love your enemies", he probably didn't mean kill them.

  23. #98
    Cyburbian El Feo's avatar
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    Originally posted by GeekyBoy
    Which brings us to another issue

    ie. "inherit" superiority of democracy as a way of governance, in the "western" perspective.

    At a local scale, perhaps it is true. But I do think that a benevolent (I stress that word) technocracy could do better at a national and global level.

    GB
    Examples of successful "benevolent" technocracies (private sector examples won't fly) at any level would be greatly appreciated.
    "The fanatical Muslims despise America because it's all lapdancing and gay porn; the secular Europeans despise America because it's all born-again Christians hung up on abortion; the anti-Semites despise America because it's controlled by Jews. Too Jewish, too Christian, too Godless, America is also too isolationist, except when it's too imperialist." -- Mark Steyn

  24. #99
    maudit anglais
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    Originally posted by El Feo


    Examples of successful "benevolent" technocracies (private sector examples won't fly) at any level would be greatly appreciated.
    Science Fiction novels don't count either!

  25. #100
    Cyburbian El Feo's avatar
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    Originally posted by BKM
    GBoy- Do you mean Singapore-style technocracy? As socially restrictive as it is, many would argue that Singapore is a good model. I wonder. Part of their success is providing a platform for multinationals. Maybe that is our only future? Yuck.

    I agree with you that it may be arrogant to assume that every country can be or should be a western-style "democracy." I have doubts about American exceptionalism.

    Not that I am a total relativist, either. When it comes to womens' rights, a culture that refuses to prosecute rape unless there are three male witnesses is worng, not just "culturally different" Of course, that culture is Pakistan, which is our ally on the War on Terror. And the Shrub administration has just appointed a woman to a major position who believes that the police should just stay out of situations where the hubbie is beating his wife "because that is just an interpersonal matter that the police can't understand"

    No more ranting, I promise.
    No such promises from me.

    BKM, you tread on very dangerous ground with me when you question whether every country "can" be a democracy. Now, I can't be clear enough on this point - I know you're no racist. But nonetheless to me the notion smacks of the offensive "happy darky" argument against black enfranchisement peddled in the South after the civil war ("why, they're happy where they are - they wouldn't know what to do if they got their freedom - they like it just fine here on the plantation and that's where they're most comfortable"). Please, elaborate on what you mean.

    And let's just clear another point up, too - "western-style" democracy is the only style of democracy there is. I will never accept an argument that the rise of democracy in the west was due to some inherent "racial" superiority (nor will I ever accept the notion of geographic determinism a la Fernand Braudel, and, more recently, Jared Diamond and Robert Kaplan). I think it was more of a happy and fortunate accident. But it is a western political "invention" that was not independently developed anywhere else in the world (not even in American aboriginal governments - where even in "progressive" systems like the Iroquois League, a chief could still kill anyone who made him mad enough without due process, and with impunity).
    "The fanatical Muslims despise America because it's all lapdancing and gay porn; the secular Europeans despise America because it's all born-again Christians hung up on abortion; the anti-Semites despise America because it's controlled by Jews. Too Jewish, too Christian, too Godless, America is also too isolationist, except when it's too imperialist." -- Mark Steyn

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