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Thread: Unpopular or unorthodox beliefs you hold

  1. #101

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    El Feo: I am not deliberately being racist-but maybe you are right that there is some inherent racism/culturalism involved in my arguments.

    I guess my point is that "democracy" or representative government requires a certain level of cultural/historical development. Let's be honest, the U.S. severly restricted the franchse (through often semi-legal or downright illegal methods) until the teens (for women) and the 1960s for southern blacks.

    Coming in, guns blazing, does not mean that we will successfully be able to implant a functional representational "democracy" in a place like Iraq that is not even really a nation but is a collection of peoples cobbled together by colonial powers. Too often, this kind of imposed democracy degenerates into factional or tribal violence. While skeptical of "benevolent" dictatorships, in a practicle sense, sometimes imposed "republics" are so disfunctional that such states do work better than theoretical democracies. I wish it wasn't true, but . . .

    Doesn't mean that we can't PROMOTE the ideal of representational government. Just that we have to be careful to recognize that "democracy" is not something instantly importable.

  2. #102
    Cyburbian El Feo's avatar
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    BKM - cool. I think we pretty much agree. I don't think it would be an instant fix. But I do think we should seriously consider something like we did in Japan, whihc I think is surprisingly analogous.

    Never thought you were being racist - but I was unclear about what you meant. you cleared it up.
    "The fanatical Muslims despise America because it's all lapdancing and gay porn; the secular Europeans despise America because it's all born-again Christians hung up on abortion; the anti-Semites despise America because it's controlled by Jews. Too Jewish, too Christian, too Godless, America is also too isolationist, except when it's too imperialist." -- Mark Steyn

  3. #103

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    And don't forget, success of democracy as a system of governance is highly dependent on the level of engagement at the electorate level.

    Which brings us back to another point - even though the right to vote (I would argue it is a duty, but that's another debate) is universal, is the ability to vote intelligently a univeral trait? I'd argue not, even in mature representative democracies of the western world. In fact, democracy can be doubly dangerous during turbelent times, when used to justify inhumane acts via "majority rules" (re: rise of Nazism from Weimer republic).

    GB

  4. #104
          Downtown's avatar
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    Originally posted by donk

    I don't really believe in concensus building or public participation / consultation. The culture of where I live and my bad experiences with dealing with the locals has soured me on these items.
    Amen.

    I HATE consensus building. Most of the time it is just NOT going to happen because there are too many yahoos who refuse to compromise and come to middle ground. Their only purpose is to show up at meetings, wave their signs and make me get home at 1am, all without having even contributed one ounce of intelligent dialogue.

  5. #105
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Originally posted by KMateja

    Their only purpose is to show up at meetings, wave their signs and make me get home at 1am, all without having even contributed one ounce of intelligent dialogue.
    That's measured in ounces where you are?! Wow... We use mili-liters to try and squeeze out a teensy bit. I think you need to change your scale...
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  6. #106
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    We use mili-liters to try and squeeze out a teensy bit
    I'm looking at micro or nanolitres for the good that they bring. The joys of the metric system, being able to easily measure the smallest amount easily.

    Glad to know that I'm not the only one that feels this way, when I say stuff like this around my office or at meetings the room gets really cold, -40 degrees celcius.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

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