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Thread: Male dominance in urban planning debate

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    Male dominance in urban planning debate

    More men are in planning generally. I am not sure what is being asked of men here. Men are condescending to women...and they are to other men as well. Its not a game, its tough.

    http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/08/1...anning-debate/

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    omg what a coincidence as I recently was mansplained by a retired male planner who also said that one of the nameless projects I am working on will likely fail because the leading agents are female - it was flabbergasting
    Kim Wexler: Either you fit the jacket... or the jacket fits you.

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    When you are retired you can say what you really think lol.

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    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Hawkeye66 View post
    More men are in planning generally. I am not sure what is being asked of men here. Men are condescending to women...and they are to other men as well. Its not a game, its tough.

    http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/08/1...anning-debate/
    Maybe you could try to encourage men not to be condescending? To women or each other? And to be aware when women are being treated poorly and their skills and feedback is being undermined. It's not really nuclear physics. The things you can do to address it are pretty simple.

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    Some women handle it well. You know, after 17 year of this, I have a skin that is more or less concrete. Its an essential skill to a long career in the public realm.

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    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Hawkeye66 View post
    Some women handle it well. You know, after 17 year of this, I have a skin that is more or less concrete. Its an essential skill to a long career in the public realm.
    This is just really dismissive. I'm not saying my skin is thick or thin. I handle conflict pretty well, and yes, that is part of the job. But it shouldn't be an issue with our own colleagues. People can disagree without being rude or condescending. Part of the reason we acknowledge that these behaviors exist is so we can work to correct them.

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    Well, its like asking why does a Crocodile do what it does. We are what we are, Sorry, there really isn't a better answer. I guess I don't mind if peers are gonna rake me over the coals. So be it.

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    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hawkeye66 View post
    Well, its like asking why does a Crocodile do what it does. We are what we are, Sorry, there really isn't a better answer.
    So, you're from the "Boys will be boys," school of thought. And maybe that genes dictate destiny?

    I appreciate that you shared an article exposing a female perspective on men in the field. It's a damning perspective, in my opinion. It's also a fresh perspective in the sense that, as a man, when at planning conferences and at social functions with fellow planners, I've often noticed that it's the men with the forceful opinions, with a melange of ideas, and such decisive views on how the world works. It's often felt to me like a neverending stream of words. I do hope that this article can start a productive dialogue as I am from the school of thought that people can change, and that men in planning can turn their brain-spigot off every once in awhile and be more respectful to women and their words and ideas.

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    Cyburbian Plus
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    2016 APA salary survey

    58% male out of 9709 survey responses being US full-time year-round planners.

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wannaplan? View post
    So, you're from the "Boys will be boys," school of thought. And maybe that genes dictate destiny?

    I appreciate that you shared an article exposing a female perspective on men in the field. It's a damning perspective, in my opinion. It's also a fresh perspective in the sense that, as a man, when at planning conferences and at social functions with fellow planners, I've often noticed that it's the men with the forceful opinions, with a melange of ideas, and such decisive views on how the world works. It's often felt to me like a neverending stream of words. I do hope that this article can start a productive dialogue as I am from the school of thought that people can change, and that men in planning can turn their brain-spigot off every once in awhile and be more respectful to women and their words and ideas.
    I am respectful to them at work. I treat them just like I would a man. I try to keep people genderless at work to the extent I can. Its funny since I have mentored two young women who have gone on to good jobs and are having good careers. But yeah, its a tough career. It requires being tough. Ideas get big scrutiny and get ripped at times frankly.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Hawkeye66 View post
    I am respectful to them at work. I treat them just like I would a man. I try to keep people genderless at work to the extent I can. Its funny since I have mentored two young women who have gone on to good jobs and are having good careers. But yeah, its a tough career. It requires being tough. Ideas get big scrutiny and get ripped at times frankly.
    Part of the issue here is that the way men respond and treat issues is what's considered the norm. I think one thing that would go a long way to helping create a more balanced dynamic is to understand and work on accepting that more "feminine" ways of handling situations or approaching problem-solving isn't necessarily softer or less effective - it's just different than what has been the standard expectation in male-dominated workplaces. It's an important part of our jobs to make sure that different voices are heard and considered besides just the ones that are loudest.

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    I have weathered a lot of crap over the years - but what is bat-$%^& crazy is when someone disagrees with me for the simple fact I am female so don't assume if a woman complains about how tough it is that it's because she is not tough enough, we just don't like being disagreed with because we are female - even if they disagree for other bat-$%^& crazy other reasons, that's fine but not becasue I am a woman, that's insane in 2017.

    don't be a

    where is dobopoq lol
    Kim Wexler: Either you fit the jacket... or the jacket fits you.

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian View post
    I have weathered a lot of crap over the years - but what is bat-$%^& crazy is when someone disagrees with me for the simple fact I am female so don't assume if a woman complains about how tough it is that it's because she is not tough enough, we just don't like being disagreed with because we are female - even if they disagree for other bat-$%^& crazy other reasons, that's fine but not becasue I am a woman, that's insane in 2017.

    don't be a

    where is dobopoq lol
    So how can you tell the motive for disagreement? Are they saying "You are a woman, so you are full of it"?

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hawkeye66 View post
    So how can you tell the motive for disagreement? Are they saying "You are a woman, so you are full of it"?
    Not to my face but they say it to others and it gets back to me eventually
    Kim Wexler: Either you fit the jacket... or the jacket fits you.

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian View post
    Not to my face but they say it to others and it gets back to me eventually
    Ok...that is crappy.

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    Cyburbian
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    Well here in touchy-feely CA, the public (planning) realm seems to be dis-proportionality ran by women. If you're a woman, and a minority woman, then management has your name on it. It's a simple case of over-reaction due to years of male dominance and abuse + a reaction to the (still) prevalent male dominance in the private sector. All of that has merit, but the shoe is on the other foot here - if you're a man, you have to talk/walk like a woman around the office in order to survive (OMG, how many times can I BS with my boss about her cats!). So worry not, injustice is everywhere and it's prevalent on both sides of the coin.

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mercdude View post
    Well here in touchy-feely CA, the public (planning) realm seems to be dis-proportionality ran by women. If you're a woman, and a minority woman, then management has your name on it. It's a simple case of over-reaction due to years of male dominance and abuse + a reaction to the (still) prevalent male dominance in the private sector. All of that has merit, but the shoe is on the other foot here - if you're a man, you have to talk/walk like a woman around the office in order to survive (OMG, how many times can I BS with my boss about her cats!). So worry not, injustice is everywhere and it's prevalent on both sides of the coin.
    Well I have had to BS about baseball for many years so I get it - if it's Patriot's, I can keep up, but other sports, not so much
    Kim Wexler: Either you fit the jacket... or the jacket fits you.

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    Cyburbian
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    Funny (true) story: boss was talking about cats with some of us (gag), older guy walks up and casually mentions he doesn't like cats. Immediately gets my boss's attention. Guy says, yeah my wife makes me trap them and put them out in the fields away from our house because they bother us. Side note: that's basically an automatic death sentence from what I can tell. My boss glares at the guy and then makes a comment about why did she decide to hire him. I still laugh about that one - talk about not reading the room!

    Another example: I have a louder voice and it gets noticed often because I'm one of the only guys that talks in the office - yes, heaven forbid that I answer my phone and talk to a project engineer about their planning issues instead of just emailing. Anyways, because I'm talking in my normal voice it 'disturbs' the office. I've had a lot of talking-to's about just having work-related conversations. If the shoe were only on the other foot: um, sorry your female voice is just too annoying to listen to, I prefer it if you would take any conversations to a conference room. (!!!)

    Sorry, I'm ranting. Point is, work/people suck and are prejudice for lots of reasons: age, sex, education, voice tone?, whatever.

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    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    Yeah cat people are often a little different - bless her heart...
    Kim Wexler: Either you fit the jacket... or the jacket fits you.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JNA View post
    2016 APA salary survey

    58% male out of 9709 survey responses being US full-time year-round planners.
    In talking with a couple of female interns from different schools, most of the people in their programs are female... as much as a 2:1 margin.
    If you want different results in your life, you need to do different things than you have done in the past. Change is that simple.

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    Cyburbian
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    Its the same with Landscape Architecture programs, about 2:1 (f-m) ratio. But the same statistics result: more males in the industry than females. Obviously there's a disconnect and either the stats are junk; or, (what I think), women tend to burn out faster and/or are more adept at finding other, equally lucrative/enjoyable work so they just move-on from the industry and never look back.

  22. #22
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    I think a lot of that has to do with active recruiting into the professions. APA & ASLA a couple decades ago started putting forth efforts to recruit women into the professions, along with several of the universities. For efforts like that, it usually takes a couple of decades for it to show up in workplace statistics.

    There have been similar efforts begun with minority recruitment, and it has a similar ratio beginning to show up (higher representation in academic programs compared to workplace).

    I do know two women that have left the planning profession. Both were for the same reason... after about a decade, they got sick of CONSTANTLY dealing with sexist behavior primarily from customers.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

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    Cyburbian Hawkeye66's avatar
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    Well I am not a pure planner by trade, its one hat I wear. I can say that in the administrative profession we are seeing more women come in the millenial age group. Not as many Boomer or Xer (Like me) women. Really noticeable at our conferences and stuff in the last five years I would say as the boomers retire.

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    Cyburbian
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    I'm riding the X'er / Y'er divide and I've finished two master programs: planning and land. arch, both were dominated by women not only as students but as instructors. I also found that women in my cohort tended to find initial employment easier than their male counterparts, yet somehow men are still dominating the workforce (?). Something doesn't jive; because, like I said before, my experience here in CA is that the public sector is packed with women.

    Side note: try looking at urban dictionary for 'mansplaining', I literally laughed out loud at some of the definitions and examples.

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    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by mercdude View post
    Well here in touchy-feely CA, the public (planning) realm seems to be dis-proportionality ran by women. If you're a woman, and a minority woman, then management has your name on it. It's a simple case of over-reaction due to years of male dominance and abuse + a reaction to the (still) prevalent male dominance in the private sector. All of that has merit, but the shoe is on the other foot here - if you're a man, you have to talk/walk like a woman around the office in order to survive (OMG, how many times can I BS with my boss about her cats!). So worry not, injustice is everywhere and it's prevalent on both sides of the coin.
    In my new gig, I am the only white male planner on my floor. And i estimate men are out numbered 2:1. I guess I can't use my white male privilege any more?

    It feels weird to be the minority for once in my life. But at least I am one of the taller people, so that helps.

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