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Thread: War - Huuuh, what is it good for?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    War - Huuuh, what is it good for?

    Victory of the Loud Little Handful
    by Mark Twain

    The loud little handful - as usual - will shout for the war. The pulpit will - warily and cautiously - object... at first. The great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say, earnestly and indignantly, "It is unjust and dishonorable, and there is no necessity for it."

    Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded, but it will not last long; those others will outshout them, and presently the antiwar audiences will thin out and lose popularity.

    Before long, you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speech strangled by hordes of furious men...

    Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.

    Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger" (1910)

    I put the Twain quote out for historical context. While our work in Afganistan is more than just I have yet to see the case for Iraq be made. Lord knows I enjoy an occasional war, if its tastefully done. But even old Guap ain't so sure about this war. I may be stricken from the He Man Liberal Haters Club for this, but maybe we need to slow it down a notch or two in our headlong rush to kill Saddam.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Re: War - Huuuh, what is it good for?

    Originally posted by El Guapo
    maybe we need to slow it down a notch or two in our headlong rush to kill Saddam.
    Why do you think this?

    I really think we might as well go in and do the job now, since we have all the boys over there right now. Really, this guy (and his family) has to go. We can wait until he starts invading other countries again.

    You might as well accept the fact too, that Dessert Storm II has most likely already begun. We aren't knocking out all those radars and missile defense systems for nothing.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Mike,
    I agree he needs to die a painful death. I just see our administration saying he has this and he has that, but in reality we have shit for proof. Where's the beef? If we are going to kill him and those near him because we need too - lets make our case to the world just that simple - "he needs to die because...".

    It is like a criminal trial. We have been telling the jury Saddam has the murder weapon. We either need to produce the murder weapon or rethink our approach because the jury is world opinion. It can't be totally dismissed.

    I tend to trust Republicans way more than the dems, but I don't see the proof coming out of DC. We have had a many rational reasons to take him out for years. We should have used those. We seem to have lost the argument. The time for debate is still available. It ain't over yet.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    Oh my god Guap saw the light

    this is what i have been saying for a few months, im ok with Afganistan, but Iraq is just down right wrong. We are not a nation built on attacking first, of invading someones country with out provocation or cause.

    this is why im about to place an upside down american flag on my car (your seeing more and more of that here) i support our troops, i love my country but i think the warmongers across the river are beyond dillusional.

    this war is nothing but a way to take folks minds off the economy (that will get much worse when our boys are over there on the ground getting shot at) and a sons desire to hold a grudge for his dad.

    If anything we need to worry about N Korea and their much more aggressive and destructive stance toward us. its belived they have 2-3 nukes and can put them in missles capable of reaching the west coast (wash state oregon and maybe san fran)

    i plan to march my military brat hinny down and join the anti war march MLK weekend-along side my retired CW3 army dad. (strange family bonding)
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  5. #5
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by PlannerGirl
    Oh my god Guap saw the light...but Iraq is just down right wrong. We are not a nation built on attacking first, of invading someones country with out provocation or cause.
    Not quite. I see nothing wrong in taking out the government of Iraq and making that nation our behatch for a decade. That is the price you pay for not policing yourself. The Iraqi people are guilty of letting a tyrant stand. There is a price. They are paying it, have been paying it, and it will be payed for some time to come. But I am saying the administration needs to bring the American people along first, and our allies second, and as much of the world as posible third.

    He is on a short list of those that need an ass kicking.

    My list:
    Iraq
    North Korea
    France
    Lybia
    France
    Iran

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    Guap i dont disagree at all, i find it very very troubling when we say we are the "good guys" but Bush jr plods right along down his war path with out the support, input or much else from the rest of the world body. i dont always like the UN but it sure helps to have the rest of the world backing us up. I fear it will hurt our efforts to get other nations to help track down and stop terrorits actions if they dont see us playing along.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  7. #7

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    I've changed my mind (I was cautiously supportive) and I am not even OK with Afghanistan anymore.

    The only purpose was that damn pipeline.

    There are dozens of countries where Al Qaeda had influence and camps.

    We have not spent a dime on nation-building, our allies are all puppets and vicious thugs and warlords, there is no rule of law outside of a small area around Kabul, "women's rights" are not treated any better (they are simply subject to rape and attack without any protection now), and Al Qaeda is reapidly rebuilding itself, anyway. We are thoroughly hated in the region now (not that I have much truck with the ignorant Arab street, but it still is questionable policy)

    So, every time the warmongers babble about "building a nation" in Iraq, I have to admit my skepticism. Its all about oil. Sadaam is no worse than dozens of evil dictators that we trade with or arm (Heck, we armed HIM OURSELVES). I remain profoundly skeptical of this administration. Every "political realist" policy only leads to more bloodshed and disaster in the future.

    Sorry, there's my left wing rant of the day.

  8. #8
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    What's war good for?

    The economy?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    I dont even buy that it wil be good for the economy, that held for WWI and WWII but not now, there would not be a national war effort, no draft (so the poor and minority are killed) a few tech firms will make money and some def contractors but the rest of us will suffer with oil that will shoot through the roof, stocks that will tank worse and inflation

    the old addage about war being good for the economy is imho long done
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  10. #10
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Originally posted by PlannerGirl
    I dont even buy that it wil be good for the economy, that held for WWI and WWII but not now, there would not be a national war effort, no draft (so the poor and minority are killed) a few tech firms will make money and some def contractors but the rest of us will suffer with oil that will shoot through the roof, stocks that will tank worse and inflation

    the old addage about war being good for the economy is imho long done
    Hence the question mark. More of a discussion point than anything... But, it seems the country did have a good run right after the last conflict with Iraq. The two may be seperate issues, with no nexus whatsoever, but they may not as well.

    I'm no economist. I can't even forcast my own finances...
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  11. #11

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    The "Poor Iraqui People"

    I actually agree with you, Guap, about one thing. You won't find me worrying too much about the "poor Iraqi people." To a certain extent, people DO get the government they deserve (except in largely colonial states where repeated rebellions are crushed). Heck, we deserve George et al.

    I don't agree with your ever-expanding list of "countries that deserve an ass-kicking." Who appointed us God? I have a major problem with American exceptionalism. I don't want to live in an empire, especially since I remain unconvinced that our commercial empire is all that much kinder than previous military empires. There are too many cases of brutality around the globe.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Re: The "Poor Iraqui People"

    Originally posted by BKM


    I don't agree with your ever-expanding list of "countries that deserve an ass-kicking."
    Me either....France needs to be #1 on that list!

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Habanero's avatar
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    Re: The "Poor Iraqui People"

    Originally posted by BKM
    Who appointed us God?
    Noone, and that's the problem I have. I hate that as a country we give other countries hundred of millions of dollars to help them. Why not put that to our own deficit, take care of our own first? We don't have to "save" everyone from themselves, especially when it comes across as self-rightous and risks the lives of thousands of men and women.
    When Jesus said "love your enemies", he probably didn't mean kill them.

  14. #14

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    Much of our "aid" somehow conveniently is tied to buying more weapons from American arms manufacturers (as well as other American products). So, you can consider it to be "economic development," not purely altruistic.

    Also, as a percentage of GNP/budget, our foreign aid ranks near the bottom for western countries. We are not all that generous (except in military aid).

    Otherwise, I agree with you.

  15. #15
    The future wars in order

    1.Iraq
    Saddam needs to go and you can bet it will take 2 minutes. What is scary, after Saddam is gone, what will happen will probably be worse than the war IMHO.

    2. Syria
    3. Iran

    Never a war with North Korea, because we all know you mess with North Korea, you mess with a couple million China men.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Re: The "Poor Iraqui People"

    Originally posted by BKM
    I don't agree with your ever-expanding list of "countries that deserve an ass-kicking." Who appointed us God?

    I don't think it is good policy to go looking for trouble. Trouble came to us 9-11. Now we have cleared out the mess in Afghanistan I believe we are going to "do" Iraq as a "message." Iraq is convenient. It tells other Moslem governments that they might re-consider funding terrorism and start suppressing their own radicals. It shows we can take a punch and when the time is right we can wail on a friend of theirs. I know this will upset the erudite among us, but most of everything you need to know about foreign policy and diplomacy you should have picked up during recess in grade school.

    As to “who appointed us God?” well, I guess I did. I sent a memo.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian
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    I see you forgot that you put and armed Saddam in Irak to fight Iran, you put Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan to fight Russia.
    I'll give you guys credit for at least not putting Kim Jong-il :P
    So, what do I see? Is that much like a pattern there? US arms a foreigner to fight for freedom of his country or to fight Comunism, or whatever other US interest... and you get you hand twisted....they turn agaist you.
    I see a perfect ending... Stop being big brother of the world.
    By attacking Irak or any Arab country you'll create more terrorism, and specially targeted at you.

    Violence leads to more violence.

    Islam is not evil or bad or violent, just diferent. Islam becomes evil, bad and violent when it gets in hands of extremists and fundamentalists, and that can happen with Catholicism too, and Hinduism, Protestantism, etc.
    I see no problem in letting diferent cultures survive in their own space and in their own way.The Earth is big enough for everyone. I belive every culture is smart enough to progress and live well. If they're not smart enough to live, then they'll die off and the culture will disapear.
    And if you are worried about terrorism, the best way to fight it is to defend yourselves, inside your own country, not going out to where they hide and kill the terrorists. Terrorists will eventually fall for the bait and get caught. Defensive is better than offensive, because when attacking you always leave the back uncovered. The 9-11 attacks should be taken as a message to get better defense, rather than offense.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Originally posted by SkeLeton
    I see you forgot that you put and armed Saddam in Irak to fight Iran, you put Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan to fight Russia.
    SkeL - right you are! Americans are soooo quick to forget those things. But it's worse -- our former Pres. Bush did most of those set-ups when he was CIA Director!

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    We put Noraiga in power too-god he was hard to live with. Lets see who else...?

    We DO have a problem of cleaning up one "mess" to make another.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  20. #20
    "you put Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan to fight Russia"

    Did you think we were going to let russia get to the Arabian Sea?
    And did you think we would be stupid enough to send our own troops in to fight Russian and Afghan troops? If Russia really wanted to get to the Arabian sea they would have fought a proxy war as well. Having said, this doesn't make anything right.

    I generally agree with the idea that the world can manage to shoot its own foot, and less USA military in the world (in my mind) is a good thing.

  21. #21
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Originally posted by SkeLeton
    Islam becomes evil, bad and violent when it gets in hands of extremists and fundamentalists, and that can happen with Catholicism too, and Hinduism, Protestantism, etc.
    It can happen with any extremist thought, not just religious ones. The problem, however, is that it ISN'T happening with Catholics, Hindus, or Protestants...

    Here's a little "pop quiz" from a website:

    To ensure we Americans never offend anyone - particularly fanatics intent on killing us - airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail and 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips. Perhaps the FBI should take the following test:

    In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
    (a) Norwegians from Ballard; (b) Elvis; (c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women; or (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

    In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
    (a) A pizza delivery boy; (b) Crazed feminists; (c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day; or (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

    In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
    (a) Luca Brazzi, for not being given a part in "Godfather 2;" (b) The Tooth Fairy; (c) Butch and Sundance who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from the train mission, or, (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

    In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
    (a) Mr. Rogers; (b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems; (c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless;" or (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

    On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed by:
    (a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd. (b) The Supreme Court of Florida trying to outdo their attempted hijacking of the 2000 Presidential election; (c) Mr. Bean, (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

    Hmmm ... nope, ain't no patterns here.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
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  22. #22
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by SkeLeton
    Stop being big brother of the world.
    By attacking Irak or any Arab country you'll create more terrorism, and specially targeted at you...Violence leads to more violence....And if you are worried about terrorism, the best way to fight it is to defend yourselves, inside your own country, not going out to where they hide and kill the terrorists. ..Terrorists will eventually fall for the bait and get caught. Defensive is better than offensive, because when attacking you always leave the back uncovered. The 9-11 attacks should be taken as a message to get better defense, rather than offense.
    I'd love it if the rest of the world could police itself. If America retreated to our borders how long would the following people remain free?

    China's Targets:
    Taipei
    Australia
    New Zeeland
    Japan

    North Korea's
    South Korea
    Japan

    Iraq's
    Kuwait
    The KSA
    Jordan

    Israel - Jordan - Syria - all targets of each other.

    These are just to name a few of the conflicts that will erupt when we decide hide in our shell. America has delivered a mostly prosperous and safe world - you’re welcome! I wish we were not the cop on the beat but we are.

    It is sooo easy to sit in a non-significant, way out of the action country and snipe our policies. We do the heavy lifting

    As to playing defense, well that don't win football games and wars pal.

    How long would your country be free if the US said "we are out of the policing business?"

    How many Chileians died as peace keepers on some dangerous DMZ last year? What percent of your population died stopping the Nazi's or Japan? How many of you have a father or son that didn't come home after a training accident while keeping the Russians out of Western Europe?

    Now, the natural inclination of some of my friends here on the board is going to give me some grief for messing with our welcome foreign visitor. Go ahead if it pleases you. But I don't plan on going on BET over this one.

    You want US on that wall - You NEED us on that wall.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mastiff


    It can happen with any extremist thought, not just religious ones. The problem, however, is that it ISN'T happening with Catholics, Hindus, or Protestants...
    Just goes to show you.... Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Habanero's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mastiff


    In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
    (a) Luca Brazzi, for not being given a part in "Godfather 2;" (b) The Tooth Fairy ; (c) Butch and Sundance who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from the train mission, or, (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
    (b) I always knew that biatch was evil!
    When Jesus said "love your enemies", he probably didn't mean kill them.

  25. #25

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    You have a point, El Guapo (complaints from the French, for example, are not even worthy of response). Still, for example, given that the vocal minority of the Koreans-and their elected government, don't want us there, can we force them to allow us to remain? North Korea may be scary militarily, but their social-economic system is unsustainable and will collapse of its won weight.

    The problem I have is that too often our policies and economic development programs (i.e., weapons sales) do nothing but stir up the very problems you discuss. Our manipulation too often makes things worse. Us "being on the wall" too often means building that wall in cahoots with corrupt local leadership that is hated by the population. Particularly when the main point of that local leadership is taking a cut from nasty multinational corporations (not always American, of course) busy raping and pillaging the local landscape and population. When the eruption comes, it is often worse.

    I can't claim to know the answer. I am just tired of the Kissingers of the world portentously babbling about the need for "realpolitic" and helping us become more and more hated.

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