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Thread: War - Huuuh, what is it good for?

  1. #26
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    BKM - You are right we should leave Korea, Germany, Italy, England, Okinawa, and all the other 50 or so places where we have US troops when the freely elected government there asks us to go. No question about that. We should not go every time a rabble of protestors burns down a neighborhood. We should also tell these counties that their defense is now their own responsibility and all treaties are up for renegotiation. We should be polite guests, as we currently are all over the world.

    A Reminder: Countless people are alive and free because of Realpolitik. Far more than would be under communist control.

  2. #27
    Cyburbian
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    Well... I guess you're right EG... the US is too much involved in bringing stability to unstable countries. The thing is, you got to respect the dominant culture that is in the country , not just slap in the Mc Donalds and malls and the american dream and all of your culture.

    If you like peace and want peace, achieve peace in a peacefull way. (way to many peace in one sentence :P) As Albert Einstein said Peace can not be kept by force, it must be achieved through understanding.

    I'll go on a little local history here, let's go back to 1970... here in Chile Salvador Allende was elected (by a miserable 35%, don't worry our new constitution made that now imposible), and since he was a socialist (quite controlled by comunists) on the first years of his mandate he was doing quite well, but problems started apearing late in 1971, the ecomomy went steep down. In october of 1972 there was a huge instability, the transport workers stopped working and you could say the country stoped for like half a month (Venezuela sounds familiar now ,eh?), there were huge waiting lines to get simple objects like 4 pounds of sugar or a roll of toilet paper.
    So the inflation was high rise, and we were very poor at the moment, but why was Chile so poor? 'cause Nixon didn't like the Commies (can't blame him) and was methaphorically choking us, until Pinochet(obviously suported bu US) did a coup d' etat and then we just started going uphill again..
    BTW the day of the coup d' etat here was on a lovely 9-11-1973... sounds familiar... but just 28 years foward...
    The point is... that many still hate Pinochet (all the commies) because he took the country out of starvation and it could have ended in a long civil war, but doing so he killed like 5000 people, in a not so decent way.
    So there you have it folks, one guy that was quite empowered by the US but didn't turn against the US (thank god... otherwise we'd be just a pile of dust)

    I believe the conflict could have been resolved without violence (specially with out those 5000 or so tortured and killed), but it would have taken a lot of time.

    I do understand that world peace is quite utopical... but if we do want to get near enough we got to try hard to solve conflicts in a peacefull and civilized maner.

  3. #28
    Cyburbian Runner's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mike DeVuono
    Me either....France needs to be #1 on that list!
    Ah, the French..., this reminds me of an e-mail I just received:


    From a Marine in Bosnia. Note the signature, but read it last.


    A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia): A French army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he thought we (Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to provoke a war. He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn't be able to count on the support of France.

    I told him that it didn't surprise me. Since we had come to France's rescue in World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude and jealousy was due to surface at some point in the near future anyway. That is why France is a third-rate military power with a socialist economy and a bunch of #%$%# for soldiers.

    I additionally told him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words, would do whatever it had to do, and France's support was only for show anyway. Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the burden, as evidenced by the fact that the French officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the other way around.

    He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told him if he would like to, I would meet him outside in front of the Burger King and beat his ass in front of the entire Multinational Brigade East, thus demonstrating that even the smallest American had more fight in him than the average Frenchman. He called me a barbarian cowboy and walked away in a huff.

    With friends like these, who needs enemies?






    Mary Beth Johnson LtCol, USMC

    DON'T YOU JUST LOVE A REAL AMERICAN WOMAN!!!!
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  4. #29
    You might be interested to know that there are jokes about 'friendly fire' currently circulating. The best one is that the British are only joining in because they've realised the safest place to be is in front of the Americans. This is because 49% of USA casualties in the Gulf War were due to friendly fire - or so I've been told. Although the proportion is so big mainly because the Iraqi soldiers didn't join in as wholeheartedly as they should've. And could someone explain to me how going after a secular dictator harms a religious fanatic?

    Before we get into it, Hussein does seemed to have borrowed all his policies from the British occupation around 1900-1920. In comparison to Churchill and his gassing campaigns, Hussein looks like a puddy-tat.
    Glorious Technicolor, Breath-Taking CinemaScope and Stereophonic Sound!

  5. #30
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Originally posted by Journeymouse
    You might be interested to know that there are jokes about 'friendly fire' currently circulating. The best one is that the British are only joining in because they've realised the safest place to be is in front of the Americans. This is because 49% of USA casualties in the Gulf War were due to friendly fire - or so I've been told. Although the proportion is so big mainly because the Iraqi soldiers didn't join in as wholeheartedly as they should've. And could someone explain to me how going after a secular dictator harms a religious fanatic?

    Unfortunately, friendly fire is a fact of life in war. And while 49% seems like a large percentage, it's only so high because we had so few casualties caused by the Republican Guard.

    We blew up a whole APC didn't we?? There sure were some numbers in that mistake alone.

  6. #31
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Those statistics are probably just combat losses. I think far more died in traffic accidents than in any form of combat.

  7. #32
    maudit anglais
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    Originally posted by SkeLeton
    Well... I guess you're right EG... the US is too much involved in bringing stability to unstable countries. The thing is, you got to respect the dominant culture that is in the country , not just slap in the Mc Donalds and malls and the american dream and all of your culture.
    The thing that gets me about statements like this is that it is NOT the American government that is trying to impose it's culture on others. This is capitalism/free-market economy at work - McDonalds and other companies move into these countries because they see a market and opportunity. If McDonalds didn't think they could sell hamburgers in Chile, or any other country, they wouldn't be there.

  8. #33
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Good Point TP. If the chain Llama Burger was a world-wide hit would the people of Ecuador say no to imposing their culture on the world?

  9. #34
    Cyburbian
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    Sorry about that....

    Well as you see,once again I made a mistake, yes I do know tha Mc Donalds and any US comercial brand isn't related to the US government. Also I now realize that under free market economy, it's the country that should fight to preserve their culture.
    But anyways... let's get back to the topic... war... I already gave my opinion... so I won't put it back again, but the important thing is to keep on with the topic.

    My apologies for the previous rants...

    Peace!

  10. #35
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Peace

  11. #36
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by Journeymouse
    You might be interested to know that there are jokes about 'friendly fire' currently circulating. The best one is that the British are only joining in because they've realised the safest place to be is in front of the Americans. This is because 49% of USA casualties in the Gulf War were due to friendly fire - or so I've been told. Although the proportion is so big mainly because the Iraqi soldiers didn't join in as wholeheartedly as they should've. And could someone explain to me how going after a secular dictator harms a religious fanatic?

    Before we get into it, Hussein does seemed to have borrowed all his policies from the British occupation around 1900-1920. In comparison to Churchill and his gassing campaigns, Hussein looks like a puddy-tat.
    Armies have always joked about their allies. But I can assure you being in front of the US Army is not a safe place to be in the upcoming months. The're really pissed and motivated this time. While we had several regrettable friendly fire incidents, American firepower in the last 15 years has been the best targeted and most accurate in the history of mankind by several orders of magnitude. However when you mix young men, sleep depravation, explosives, guns and chaos accidents will happen. Have toured the battlefield while it was still active in Iraq and Kuwait I can assure you many Iraqis died for no good reason. This time their sons will have the same opportunity. It's a shame.

  12. #37
    Cyburbian El Feo's avatar
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    Originally posted by SkeLeton
    Well... I guess you're right EG... the US is too much involved in bringing stability to unstable countries. The thing is, you got to respect the dominant culture that is in the country , not just slap in the Mc Donalds and malls and the american dream and all of your culture.
    [rant]

    Well, I've been away for awhile, but I just couldn't stay out of this one...

    Skel, let me just first of all say I'm sorry, because I know you already backed off a little, and you're going to feel like I'm jumping down your throat, but really I'm not, it's just that I've seen this argument, like, 1,000,000 times over the last year.

    But out of all the richness of American culture, the fact that McDonald's, malls, and Starbucks are the things that have caught on in other countries says MUCH more about the rest of the world than it does about America - none of it good, I'm afraid. Hmmm, let's see, Jazz, basketball, the airplane, moon pies, God's sake, my grandparents kicked a depression and three world tyrants' asses, and my parents put a man on the MOON. In my generation we've brought down several brutal regimes, invented the internet, built the Hubble telescope, and sent a new shuttle up scores of times to fiddle with it and other space projects. Those are just off the top of my head, and not especially good examples. I could go on, but for the sake of space and the remnants of my own dignity, I won't.

    There's obviously much more to us than fast food and sitcoms. The taste of the masses abroad only for those things we've produced for convenience or entertainment reflects VERY little on us, IMHO. And we'd love to export the American Dream - which really is our contribution to culture - trust me, we really would, because a lot of the world's AND our problems would go away. Trouble is, nobody's interested in it - only in the products of it. So many peoples are good at using what we produce, but so few care to take on the hard work and sacrifices that are demanded to produce it themselves. Again, IMHO that's not evidence of OUR vapidness and fecklessness.

    And yeah, we've screwed up, BADLY and REPEATEDLY, but anyone that can look at the breadth of world history since 1776 and deny that men are MORE free, the world over, and better off as a result of American efforts is lying or just isn't paying attention. We've done a hell of a lot of good things, far more than bad, right up to this very day. I think what we're about to do in Iraq is one of them, though I'm clearly in the minority here.

    And, unlike almost any other country in the world - including every Western democracy - when we've done wrong we can look at what we've done, be horrifed, and act to fix it. Supported Saddam in the 1980s? Yes. Set bin Laden up to fight a proxy war for us in Afghanistan? Sadly, it's true. The fact that we've done those things doesn't mean we're hypocrites when we move against them - it means we, of all nations, recognize we have an obligation to clean up our messes. (As an aside, do you think Britain and France feel any responsibility for contemporary problems in the Middle East, based on the way they partitioned the remnants of the Ottoman Empire after WWI? I'm guessing they don't, even though they should. They're different that way.) I'm betting you'll see us cleaning up more of our messes in Iran and Saudi Arabia not too far down the road.

    Sorry again, hope there aren't any hard feelings about this, and it's my first and last rant for awhile.[/rant]

  13. #38

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    I do have to agree with one "conservative" argument: The Europeans have absolutely NO ground to lecture anyone on the morality of foreign policy. Even as a self-professed lefty-pacifist, I have difficulty listening to GERMANS, for God's sake, expressing distaste about our policy. Europe pillaged and raped the world for centuries, our "empire" is, as one poster put it (except for a few examples like the Phillipines, which was a fun little holocaust) an exemplar.

    As for better off through realpolitic? I'm not sure. There were/are other crimes/forms of oppression in the world (granted that Marxist fundamentalism may have been the most virulent). Was it really a good idea to prop up Mobutu Sese Seko for decades, for example-even if he had a lot of good mineral resources? The vast misery and bloodshed today brings that into question. Kissinger in East Timor is another example. The problem is oppression always eventually leads to an explosion. And, I hate being a bad guy-even if we did it for oh so "necessary" geopolitical reasons.

  14. #39
    Cyburbian Grassroots's avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mastiff
    [B]

    It can happen with any extremist thought, not just religious ones. The problem, however, is that it ISN'T happening with Catholics, Hindus, or Protestants...

    what about the irish independence movement? also, in america, people like eric rudolph in my stomping ground are bombing abortion clinics in the name of the christian god. his brother is recorded on videotape chainsawing his own hand off for the glory of god. i think we have our problems too. in general, i think organized religions (be it christian, muslim, whatever) are concentrating to the most petty things whose creators would also probably not agree are healthy. in general; i think people are concentraing too much on christ/mohammed/etc. the man instead of what they preached. maybe they need a hug. i don't know. just my opinion.
    Jesse Ventura in 2012!

    "Inside every small problem is a big one trying to get government funding"

  15. #40
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Grassroots
    [B]
    Originally posted by Mastiff


    It can happen with any extremist thought, not just religious ones. The problem, however, is that it ISN'T happening with Catholics, Hindus, or Protestants...

    what about the irish independence movement? also, in america, people like eric rudolph in my stomping ground are bombing abortion clinics in the name of the christian god. his brother is recorded on videotape chainsawing his own hand off for the glory of god. i think we have our problems too. in general, i think organized religions (be it christian, muslim, whatever) are concentrating to the most petty things whose creators would also probably not agree are healthy. in general; i think people are concentraing too much on christ/mohammed/etc. the man instead of what they preached. maybe they need a hug. i don't know. just my opinion.
    Ireland is divided along religious lines, true... But what we are really looking at is an occupation by another country and/or civil war. It kind of depends upon your point of view. What you DON'T have, is Catholic persons bombing some cathedral in France, simply because there are Protestants there, or Protestants fire-bombing the Vatican.

    There are plenty of U.S. homegrown nutcases. Hell, we had a U.S. citizen blow up a federal building! People do become extremists over issues, and this is the case with the abortion bombers and shooters. Those same people aren't shooting hookers or drug dealers in the name of "god"... they have an issue with abortion.

    The radical Islamic movement treats our way of life as a threat. All of it. And anyone who feels this way is my enemy... I prefer them dead. Hug them all you want, but then you might want to step aside, because my military intends to protect my way of life, and I'm glad they do.

    Be Islamic all you want. Hell, be Islamic in my country, even... But if kill innocent people because they don't believe what you believe, you need to be planted six feet down.
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  16. #41
    Cyburbian
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    The thing is that only the Radical or Fundamentalist Islamic people are against other people that don't believe in their beliefs. How to put up with them? By pounding then the US army? Nope!, that'll just create more fundamentalists and create more violence.
    The keyword is DEFENSE!

  17. #42
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Originally posted by SkeLeton
    The thing is that only the Radical or Fundamentalist Islamic people are against other people that don't believe in their beliefs. How to put up with them? By pounding then the US army? Nope!, that'll just create more fundamentalists and create more violence.
    The keyword is DEFENSE!
    Defense? Against what? Some deranged asshole hijacking a plane and flying it into a building? Great... Now I can be "defended" with an anal probe before boarding, while some turbaned fellow with a passport waltzes past because he wasn't picked at random. Some defense.

    Tell me, how are we defending New Orleans from a barge full of diesel and fertilizer being touched off near the French Quarter at Mardi Gras? Or perhaps a "dirty" nuke coming in through the lightly guarded Texas boarder to set off at the Superbowl?

    Defending a free country isn't easy.

    There are two ways to deal with the issue. One, you can make them hate you less by staying out of their business. Truthfully, I believe they hate us less for what we stand for, and more for where we stand. If we kept out of the middle east, we'd have quite a bit less trouble.

    Second, you can make them never want to mess with you. That is violent, yes... but WWI and WWII were violent, too. And think about it, Hitler never would have quit with England and Russia, he wanted the world. Perhaps being powerful comes with a responsibility....

    Personally, I want the people responsible for 9/11 dead. I want all of them to know that we are not afraid, we will not be terrorized, and we will not sit back and take it. I want them to know we are coming to kick thier ass, and every ass that thinks and acts like them.
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  18. #43
    Cyburbian
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    Originally posted by Mastiff

    Personally, I want the people responsible for 9/11 dead.
    Personally I do feel for you guys about the 9-11 attacks. Something I don't like is that if they get the people responsible, they are getting caught by US Troops, which means they will be murdered right on the spot. They are responsible for more than 2000 people dying. And I guess If I were a soldier and caught the ones responsible, I'd kill them too. It's just too much.

    Let me put this Quote from Mahatma Gandhi:
    " The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an atribute of the strong."

  19. #44
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Originally posted by SkeLeton


    Personally I do feel for you guys about the 9-11 attacks. Something I don't like is that if they get the people responsible, they are getting caught by US Troops, which means they will be murdered right on the spot. They are responsible for more than 2000 people dying. And I guess If I were a soldier and caught the ones responsible, I'd kill them too. It's just too much.
    Wouldn't any rational person feel for the men, women, and children harmed on that day? Yet, didn't people in mideast countries have celebrations?

    The people responsible need to die, and the celebrators need to realize that if they get in the way, they will meet the same fate.

    Originally posted by SkeLeton

    Let me put this Quote from Mahatma Gandhi:
    " The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an atribute of the strong."
    Perhaps the weak can never forgive, but I suggest that is different from "will" never... Also, is it right to forgive people who don't want to be forgiven? I'd say it is not.
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  20. #45
    Cyburbian Grassroots's avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mastiff
    [B]

    There are two ways to deal with the issue. One, you can make them hate you less by staying out of their business. Truthfully, I believe they hate us less for what we stand for, and more for where we stand. If we kept out of the middle east, we'd have quite a bit less trouble.

    staying out of their business? tell that to the oil gluts at exxon who refuse to even glance at alternative transportation and non-oil consuming technology (and, in fact, oftentimes impede their development). we want stay out of the middle east ...good luck as long as everyone continues to drive SUV's. even though i nearly always disagree with organized religion period, i think those stupid ads they are putting up now do have a point. we are supporting this crap with our consumption.

    Second, you can make them never want to mess with you. That is violent, yes... but WWI and WWII were violent, too. And think about it, Hitler never would have quit with England and Russia, he wanted the world.

    are you saying that you want WWIII? i have always hoped my country has evolved into something more than that. maybe instead of doing what is expected (blowing up thier country), hit them where they don't epected it. see below.

    Perhaps being powerful comes with a responsibility....

    exactly...but even more so, being an american, to me, means leadership. we continue to put billions into foreign aid promoting foreign competition and competitive ideals. why do we not take a lesson from OURSELVES regarding leadership and competition. instead of going to blow up a country (or a group) that realistically has us by the balls as a result of our consumption habits, why not dump the 200-400 billion dollars that has been projected to be spent on this bullshit, develop fusion power, and then turn around and sell it to the world; thus leaving these guys out of the equation altogether!! do you know how that would wonderfully piss them off more than going to kill the entire country? THAT is leadership and competition. i just wish america would use its brain instead of its might. we have no comprehensive energy policy to date. i can understand defending american ideals being an american, but when those ideals have not even been PLANNED (remember we are planners), i have issues watching my president trying to justify our policy THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST OR IS NOT CLEARLY DEFINED! i am at least glad he is starting to look at fusion power, albeit slowly and they are making strides i heard. too bad he and the administration are predicting 2037. hope it is not too late.

    sorry for the rant...(i kind of like this forum stuff)

    its not whether you win or lose....it's how gooooddd you look--David Lee Roth
    Last edited by Grassroots; 15 Jan 2003 at 5:14 AM.
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  21. #46
    Cyburbian Grassroots's avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mastiff
    [B]

    Personally, I want the people responsible for 9/11 dead. I want all of them to know that we are not afraid, we will not be terrorized, and we will not sit back and take it. I want them to know we are coming to kick thier ass, and every ass that thinks and acts like them.

    i hear the army is hiring.
    Last edited by Grassroots; 15 Jan 2003 at 4:36 AM.
    Jesse Ventura in 2012!

    "Inside every small problem is a big one trying to get government funding"

  22. #47
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Fusion power? Wasn't that already discovered about a decade back?

    C'mon, let's get serious now. Look how long it took to get fission power to the point it is today - inexpensive (nearly free), abundant and clean energy for everyone, just as promised - or dead, due to environmental extremism. Wanting something does not mean we can have it overnight. Even if the technology to create fission power existed today, it would still take decades to implement (and likely be held up by extreme environmentalists who would object to the siting of the facilities). Even then, are you proposing that we would all drive around in fission-powered cars?

    Let's also get beyond blaming SUV's for every evil in the world. I am not a fan of them, and believe that they are far more vehicle than nearly all of their drivers really need, that the people who have them do not know how to drive them, and that they are a danger to others on the road. Still, their milage is not all that worse than some other "socially acceptable" vehicles. And what is more, we do not use petroleum solely for gas so that we can drive around like the profligate SOB's we Americans are.

    Petroleum products are used in countless thousands of other products, from lubricants to chemicals and plastics. Of course, maybe we don't really need more plastic. We can just cut down some more renewable trees instead.

    Don't get me wrong. I like a good debate. But black-and-white scenarios and extremist positions hardly merit any consideration.

  23. #48
    Cyburbian Grassroots's avatar
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    i agree michael!

    i hear you on the fission power. i am not trying to sound radical or extremist. fusion was discovered a while back, but there has been little funding to support it...not until 9/11 and mainstream america finally realized it had to deal with an alternative or go to war. it seems that the people chose the latter for the time being. i just read a lot of people's rants on here and i just think people are speaking out of passion..so why not me?
    Jesse Ventura in 2012!

    "Inside every small problem is a big one trying to get government funding"

  24. #49
    Cyburbian Grassroots's avatar
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    a little p.s.

    i also heard on bbc this mornig that all the enviro freaks in europe are going ape because great britain has told people they are going to start building new nuclear plants. they are doing this because it is the only clean source of power available to be able to meet the kyoto protocol standards they signed onto. apparently, the enviro's went crazy about this, but britain said that even if you put all the alternative power source you can on the whole island, it would only supply around 15% of the countries needs. the argument seeemed to be either nuclear, or we can't meet the protocols. fission is not dangerous and does not pollute hardly at all. US scientists have managed to light 10Kw worth of lights for about 10 seconds...a big improvement over a decade ago. the trick is getting a sustained 1 million degree centigrade. i think the enviro's won't mind if they know it is clean, produces a lot, and will not meltdown and cause mutations....unless you put it in the alaskan wildlife preserve.
    Jesse Ventura in 2012!

    "Inside every small problem is a big one trying to get government funding"

  25. #50
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    One million degrees Centigrade - won't that contribute to global warming? Is there any guarantee that the reaction can be contained, and that this intense heat won't pose a threat to its surroundings. Even now it is an issue with power plants returning water to streams at warmer temperatures, and the impact it has on fish and other aquatic life.

    Harmless, renewable energy sources? Wind turbines make a lot of noise. They are also a threat to birds. What about harnessing rivers? Ask a salmon about that, if you can find one.

    We're only deluding ourselves to think that there is a wonderful, wholesome, clean, abundant, affordable source of unlimmited energy out there. We have existing technologies that we can work with. We have future potential energy sources that will have their own set of problems. I applaud GB for restarting their nuclear program.

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