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Poll results: The State of Civil Liberties

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm very worried -The government is now acting illegally and should be challenged.

    6 30.00%
  • I'm concerned -The government is getting close to acting illegally.

    9 45.00%
  • I'm unconcerned - who cares?

    2 10.00%
  • I'm happy - A few broken rules won't hurt good citizens.

    2 10.00%
  • I'm estatic - Suspend the Constitution and hunt all enemies of the state down.

    1 5.00%
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Thread: Civil Liberties

  1. #1
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Civil Liberties

    I am by most people’s descriptions a conservative – perhaps even a fascist as one tofu eatin’, peace loving professor once called me in an urban geography class. However, even I am concerned about what seems to be happening with civil liberties in our nation since 9-11-2001. The suspension of some basic civil liberties for people that may or may not be guilty (read foreigners) disturbs me. We have 1000 people that have legally disappeared – The FBI and John Ashcroft tell me not to worry – they have the correct people and besides they are foreigners – who’s going to notice a few secret trials and summary executions. I don’t trust my government. I learned that by watching the many secret and scummy deals cut before and after city and county commission meetings. I hate to think of the crap smarter and more talented people could get away with. The far right has been screaming this message since well before Waco and Ruby Ridge. Now the left is figuring out these increased police powers are a double-edged sword that can be used against all.

    Having the terrorists shot, hung or dismembered after a fair and just trial in no way bothers me in the slightest. However, once we start suspending those civil liberties that we hold so dear to get “them”, how long is it going to be before the classification “them” is widened to include “us.” What do you think? Me? I'm worried.
    Last edited by el Guapo; 20 Nov 2001 at 12:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Jen's avatar
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    El Guapo

    Im also pessimistic about the path King George and his advisors are leading the USA down. And I guess the pro gunners would preach ardently that now more than ever is the manufacture and dispersion of arms to US citizens a right that should be preserved prehaps even expanded! And that makes me wonder what my Michigan Militia has been up to besides plotting the invasion of Ottawa!

    And as far as Im concerned, autocrats BUsh Cheney in 2004 will be TOAST, but by then the artificial heart patients(medical heroes) and their docs will probably have perfected a new ticker for big guns dick and ensure his ascension to the "throne" ala sunshine state style.

    Where is the republican party headed? Corporate fascism?

  3. #3
         
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    Liberals make me laugh out loud

    Guess I'm the only planning Republican

  4. #4
    ummmm...your poll slanted toward your opinion. The "agree with me or you're the enemy" approach is a bit revealing...

  5. #5
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Reveal What?

    After the discalimer I put at the head you think there is a hidden agenda. Well, your my kind of people - paranoid. Welcome to the far right. You'll like it out here with me and the other two fascist planners - we ought to form an APA sub group. Have a pair and say what your really feeling pal. Dont beat around the bush (get it? - it works on so many levels). I can take it. What is this agenda of mine?

  6. #6
    I thought I was being rather blatent and not holding back. I don't think you have a hidden ajenda. However, when a multiple choice poll is written that allows the opposing views only the far extreme answers, usually the author doesn't want to hear the other side. With that said, you've made it obvious in your reply that you don't mind hearing opposition.

    I'm not as freaked out about losing my civil liberties yet. I feel that non U.S. citizens should be questioned. If the gov't begins questioning all CITIZENS of our country, then I'll voice opposition. Bottom line is that foreign visitors killed thousands of our own. A stronger system of checks for incoming visitors is being derived. Shouldn't we make sure that the people who are already here don't want to KILL US?

  7. #7
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    It is that spectrum thing? Right?

    I thought I gave the poll takers a nice wide spectrum of possible answers without making the poll necessaraily too wide (7 choices seems excessive). I though I offered balanced choices with a ho-hum middleground. What would have been your poll choices/answers? I'm interested.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian mike gurnee's avatar
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    Great idea! An APA section for republican planners. I am sure they would jump on it. I know a few republicans, some of them are my best friends. One or two are republican and planners. But I would not want my daughter to marry one of them. Perhaps with this new APA section, I could learn to be more tolerant of the diversity amongst us.

  9. #9
    I'm content - The government has a right to question non-citizens if there is a severe threat to our way of life.

    I couldn't answer with your options because:

    #1 I think the appropriate action has been taken
    #2 I don't feel we're acting illegally
    #3 I aM concerned with the happenings in our country and around the globe
    #4 & #5 I don't think the gov't is breaking the rules or violating our Constitution.

    If someone is in our country as a guest and is associated with a known terrorist group, we need to know who they are.

  10. #10
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Believe it or not, one of my good friends is a Libertarian planner. Works in current planning, too -- you know, with those evil zoning and subdivision regulations. They'll get her gun when they pry it from her cold, dead hand ... but lessez faire in land use usually leads to a "trajedy of the commons" scenario, so you gotta' have zoning.

    What would be the purpose of a distinct group of Republican planners? Sounds like the Women Planners or Gay and Lesbian Planners, to be honest -- it's really more of a social thing, than a distinct subset of planning like historic preservation or rural and small town planning. Besides, there's already a Republican planning group -- it's called the APA Economic Development Division.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  11. #11
    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Originally posted by mike gurnee
    Great idea! An APA section for republican planners. I am sure they would jump on it. I know a few republicans, some of them are my best friends. One or two are republican and planners. But I would not want my daughter to marry one of them. Perhaps with this new APA section, I could learn to be more tolerant of the diversity amongst us.
    Cool, I dated a Republican once....well, I won't go into any details...Seriously, I think I have Republican leaning thoughts. Does that make me an enemy of planning?

  12. #12
    Corn Burning Fool giff57's avatar
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    Originally posted by RichmondJake


    Seriously, I think I have Republican leaning thoughts. Does that make me an enemy of planning?
    Quick! Call the DNC and ask for an intervention!

  13. #13
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    “We’re Here and we’re Conservative”

    There really is no need for a Republicans in Planning (R.I.P.) sub group other than to remind the rest of APA occasionally that a small minority of it members really are Republicans and not just conservative democrats having a bad day. Such a sub group has as much validity as the Gay or Women’s group. And we believe we make up at least 15% of the planning population. We have no facts to back up that number, but this tactic has worked for other groups in the past.

    I don’t think you’ll find a groundswell of support for R.I.P. amongst the common uneducated APA membership. APA just wants to deny such people exist. It makes them uncomfortable. We have to educate people and get in peoples faces with outlandish parades and events like Conservative Pride Days on campuses and maybe even hold a few takeovers of the Planning Departments at our Universities. We want to force incoming freshman at all universities to sit through a three hour orientation and learn about diversity in the college environment. We want them to know that Republicans are not so different. We live, love, plan and pay our bills just like the rest of Academia. We just vote differently. And, after all what a person does in a voting machine is between them and the United States Supreme Court. Thanks Ralph Nader!

    It amazes me on occasion to be in a room full of bright and chipper and oh-so-inclusive planners and one will toss out a comment about some social or economic concept and assume everyone is in mental lock step. Such bigotry. Just the other day a fellow was doing some military bashing and most of the room nodded with approval. Well no more.

    I don’t think the majority of the planning community knows how many of us are amongst the rest of you. One learns early on to keep your mouth shut because planners espouse diversity in everything but politics. Well we are the rot in the underbelly of the good ship planning. We cruse Chamber of Commerce banquets and gun shows looking for others of a like mind.

    A word of caution: I and other RIPs are discussing OUTING a few high level APA office holders who have secret underground arms rooms and pictures of Barry Goldwater and the Gipper. We know that you rented Terminator 2 and Patton twice last year and that you have been caught on Ted Nugent’s web site. Do your selves a favor and tell your family before we do!

    (No Richmond Jake it doesn't make you an enemy of planning - just a more objective planner. Come to one of our Smart-Sprawl workshops where you will find love and acceptance and meet other practicing repiublicans. Just don't fall into the trap of crusing sports events like so many others that are just starting to discovering their inner Republican) You don't have to ashamed any more.

    With appologies to the gay rights movment for ripping off their retoric.
    Last edited by el Guapo; 05 Dec 2001 at 11:47 AM.

  14. #14
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    What irritates me...

    ...is that when you choose a party, you are suddenly pigeon-holed on every damn issue.

    I'm not Republican, but I'm pro death penalty...

    I'm not Democrat, but I'm on the "right to choose" side...

    I'm not in favor of removing all guns from society, but I'd give my 9mm S&W up if all handguns were banned without a problem. (And no, I don't think an Uzi is a home security weapon...)

    So what am I?

    I'm just an opinionated S.O.B. who votes for the guy that's closest to his views on all the issues.

    M
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  15. #15
    Cyburbian poncho's avatar
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    I agree

    In this day and age of limitless options it does seem to be limited to black and white, for tax and spend govt, or less taxes. I really don't think these options are what makes someone liberal or conservitive.

    Socially Liberal Fiscally Conservitive

  16. #16

    Outing the liberal nonsense

    Count me in with your views. I think 9/11 was a huge wake-up call against the liberal nonsense. And yes, I am in Economic Development.

    I used to work in a housing dept where the liberal planners would clap their hands and say that they were "helping people." Meanwhile they couldn't aquire new property even if it fell on their ass. Laziest government workers I ever saw- excuses were always that the government didn't help enough. The joke was that they were part of the problem.

    After reading this thread I feel less of a political minoroty- Thanks for speaking up Guapo.

Closed thread

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