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Thread: Dark Memories of Vietnam

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Runner's avatar
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    Dark Memories of Vietnam

    Warning long rant follows:

    We have certainly had some terrible news over the last 24 hours. First we had the "fragging" incident at the 101st. Then news of surrender ruses with subsequent ambush of our troops. Also, news of "irregular" (non-uniformed) troops capturing a supply convoy. Top that with the "friendly fire" deaths of coalition troops. Meanwhile back on the home front anti war rallies are filling the streets.

    It all brings back bad memories of the Vietnam War.

    The friendly fire deaths such as the Canadians in Afghanistan and now British in Iraq must be giving our allies pause in the dangers of warfare associated with the USA. Horrible tragic events that we need to prevent!

    When I see television pictures of our troops greeted with open arms by Iraqi civilians on one level it looks wonderful. However, on another level I cringe at the risks our young troops are taking. You can't just walk up and shake a hand of someone you don't know under those conditions and never just sit in your vehicle and talk to persons out the window. We are leaving ourselves wide open to suicide bombers, assassination, and capture. Tragically, lessons our young troops are learning the hard way.

    I also have to say I am greatly disappointed in the anti war protesters who have encouraged friction against our troops. The French and their ilk have only complicated our war plans (significantly the loss of a northern front). This will only prolong the war and lead to more coalition and Iraqi civilian deaths, result in more physical and environmental damage to the area, and has provided aid and comfort to the Saddam Hussein cult who, now believing they have the support of the world, will now fight longer and very likely move to a long term gorilla / terrorist warfare that may turn much of post war Iraq into another Palestine.

    It would be nice to have some pleasant news…
    Cheers,
    UrbanRunner
    :)
    _____________________________
    WWJJD
    "What Would Jane Jacobs Do?"

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    It would be nice to have some pleasant news…
    Ummm, we're at war. Did you think this would be a cakewalk?

    It will get uglier once we engage Baghdad with our ground troops.

    Last edited by Wannaplan?; 23 Mar 2003 at 7:02 PM.

  3. #3
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    More later, but on a lighter note ...
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Runner's avatar
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    Glad you clarified that beaner...

    Anyhow... It sure would be good to have some better news...

    Although, it looks like the going will get a whole lot tougher soon.

    A co-worker said he hopes we find WMD to prove that we were right. I told him that I hope we find none because it would be such a mixxed bag to find it. Ya if we find it we were right but we are likely to have found it on the other side of our troops gas mask filters or drifting through the streets of Isreal.
    Cheers,
    UrbanRunner
    :)
    _____________________________
    WWJJD
    "What Would Jane Jacobs Do?"

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    wmd

    I think the "coalition" will find WMDs if they have to fly them in.
    WALSTIB

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Beaner WTF? Is that some Oopa Loompa on acid?

    And this morning I heard Michael Moore's sound bite from the Oscars. That man is an embarrasment to this country.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Re: wmd

    Originally posted by Tom R
    I think the "coalition" will find WMDs if they have to fly them in.
    How little you know the spirit of the people fighting for you. Truly an offensive thing to say Tom. American fighting men and women would not participate in such deceit. It would make the lives of those lost less honorable. If WMD are there they will be found. If not we will admit it and move on. WMDs are not the sole reason for this war.

  8. #8
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Re: Dark Memories of Vietnam

    Originally posted by Runner
    It all brings back bad memories of the Vietnam War.
    A few days in, and already we're saying "Vietnam?" Gawd, we're impatient folks. We expect that there will be absolutely no effort, no sacrifices made in invading an entire country; that the troops of the US, UK and Australia will just be able to cut through Iraq like butter.

    There's going to be resistance, there's going to be friendly fire accidents, there's going to be casualities. This is war, after all.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    The pic is some kind of devil character from an Italian B movie.

    I saw Michael Moore last night. I'm from Michigan, so I have a soft spot for the guy. I even saw Bowling for Columbine twice. When he initially took the stage and began to speak, I respected his right to speak out against the war. But as he began to blather on and on, the boos he received from the audience were more than justified. He had no dignity. Selfless act of pompous ego-stroking. The smirk on his face as he left the stage said it all.


    Originally posted by bturk
    Beaner WTF? Is that some Oopa Loompa on acid?

    And this morning I heard Michael Moore's sound bite from the Oscars. That man is an embarrasment to this country.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    Re: Dark Memories of Vietnam

    Originally posted by Runner

    I also have to say I am greatly disappointed in the anti war protesters who have encouraged friction against our troops. The French and their ilk have only complicated our war plans (significantly the loss of a northern front). This will only prolong the war and lead to more coalition and Iraqi civilian deaths, result in more physical and environmental damage to the area, and has provided aid and comfort to the Saddam Hussein cult who, now believing they have the support of the world, will now fight longer and very likely move to a long term gorilla / terrorist warfare that may turn much of post war Iraq into another Palestine.
    I agree about the protesters, especially now that the war is going on the Iraqi people can see footage every day of protests from around the world. Why wouldn't they think that we're just invading their country to take their oil and surpress Islam? There's no difference in their minds between high school students protesting in times square and Palestinians burning paper mache Bushes. Maybe this is a naive way to think of it but its amazing to me that the US is at war with SADDAM HUSSEIN and we are the ones who millions around the world (and in our own country) protest. Everything we do is just seen as an attempt to get richer and more obese.

    I agree with El Guapo that its very tempting to say we're done being the world's policemen. The South Koreans resent our troops defending them from the North - fine do it yourself. Most European nations spend very little on defense because they know that we'll always be there in case of trouble. In the long run though, you never know how long Russia will be friendly to its neighbors, especially with their terrible economy.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    I have never respected Michael Moore, so his actions did nothing to change my opinion of him. He is a shameless self-promoter, using an in-your-face approach to get attention because everyone would ignore him otherwise. Send him to Iraq with a request that they use him as a human shield.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Jen's avatar
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    . WMDs are not the sole reason for this war.
    True, el guapo, but it is the main reason wouldn't you agree?

    Bush, in his weekly radio address yesterday, again mentioned Iraq's weapons of mass destruction as justification for war and listed their removal as the primary mission. "Our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people," he said.
    And how is this war going to end support for terrorism?

  13. #13
    maudit anglais
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    Originally posted by Jen
    And how is this war going to end support for terrorism?
    If successful, it will result in the elimination a regime that supports terrorist activity.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by Jen
    True, el guapo, but it is the main reason wouldn't you agree?...
    Jen,
    No, not really. I think the main reason is to end 12 years of a bully's reign (since we won the last gulf war, and lost the surrender). and take care of some unfinished business. WMD's are a big part of it and they were a major selling point to the public, but I think this was about "real politic" (tm). This was about sending a message to the world that if you screw with the bull, you may get the horns.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    Re: Re: wmd

    Originally posted by El Guapo


    How little you know the spirit of the people fighting for you. Truly an offensive thing to say Tom. American fighting men and women would not participate in such deceit. It would make the lives of those lost less honorable. If WMD are there they will be found. If not we will admit it and move on. WMDs are not the sole reason for this war.
    My comment was not aimed at or intended in any way to cas aspersions on the service people over there. I do question the motives of the administration, however. If they find Iraq squeeky clean (which I believe they will not) it would be an embarassment to the administration and seriously bring into question why we're doing what we're doing.

    This isn't Vietnam, but the protests and the lack of allied support are very reminiscent. We got into Vietnam via a slippery slope. We knowingly jumped off a ledge into Iraq.
    WALSTIB

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    While I do think this is alot like Vietnam there is one big difference.

    In Vietnam reporters were scared shitless to go along with the boys, now there are so many they are getting in the way.

    I drew the line this weekend, when I saw a reporter sticking a mic in a Marines face while they were holding an LZ for a chopper to come in. That Marine isn't looking down the barrel of his rifle if he's talking to the reporter. If he was one of my Marines, I'd of had his ass, and the reporter would've been packing his bags.

    I blame the Marine Corps for alot of this though. This has gotten way out of hand, and those reporters need to go. If you want to have the cameras on bldgs, or in rear areas thats cool. But don't make these guys babysit you, and by all means, don't be conducting an interview in the middle of a GD firefight.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    mic

    Originally posted by Mike D.
    While I do think this is alot like Vietnam there is one big difference.

    In Vietnam reporters were scared shitless to go along with the boys, now there are so many they are getting in the way.

    I drew the line this weekend, when I saw a reporter sticking a mic in a Marines face while they were holding an LZ for a chopper to come in. That Marine isn't looking down the barrel of his rifle if he's talking to the reporter. If he was one of my Marines, I'd of had his ass, and the reporter would've been packing his bags.

    I blame the Marine Corps for alot of this though. This has gotten way out of hand, and those reporters need to go. If you want to have the cameras on bldgs, or in rear areas thats cool. But don't make these guys babysit you, and by all means, don't be conducting an interview in the middle of a GD firefight.
    AMEN I hope that no one puts themself at risk protecting one of these a**h***s.
    WALSTIB

  18. #18
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Originally posted by El Guapo
    I think the main reason is to end 12 years of a bully's reign (since we won the last gulf war, and lost the surrender). and take care of some unfinished business.
    How much of this, do you think, is about changing the conditions that breed terrorism? You don't hear about terrorists from Turkey, the UAE or Qatar.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  19. #19
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Darn fine point Dan. The recruiting seems to be easier where poverty is highest. I am of the opinion that the Arab world needs to keep the Palestinian problem always foaming and fermenting. It keeps the attention off the corruption of the current regimes.

  20. #20
    You don't hear about terrorists from Turkey
    discluding the military, right

    and as far as terroist from UAE or Quattar I'm sure there are plenty of money trails supporting terrorist that lead back to those countries.

  21. #21
    Michael Moore went up their and talked about how he likes to work with facts and this is a fictitious president going to war for fictitious reasons. Yet he fails to talk about how his Bowling For Columbine documentary had a bit of fiction in it also:

    Forbes Magazine: Bowl O Drama
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mike D.
    While I do think this is alot like Vietnam there is one big difference.

    In Vietnam reporters were scared shitless to go along with the boys, now there are so many they are getting in the way.

    I drew the line this weekend, when I saw a reporter sticking a mic in a Marines face while they were holding an LZ for a chopper to come in. That Marine isn't looking down the barrel of his rifle if he's talking to the reporter. If he was one of my Marines, I'd of had his ass, and the reporter would've been packing his bags.

    I blame the Marine Corps for alot of this though. This has gotten way out of hand, and those reporters need to go. If you want to have the cameras on bldgs, or in rear areas thats cool. But don't make these guys babysit you, and by all means, don't be conducting an interview in the middle of a GD firefight.
    I think it is vitally important for reporters to be embedded with the troops, in this or any other conflict. Honest reporting of the war and of US actions is a major public relations tool, and an informed public is also the key to a successful democracy.

    I do not think that the reporters should be distracting troops from their mission, though, as this one reporter did. There is a time and a place for the interviews. I will compliment the press, though, in the restraint they have shown regarding attempts to keep from revealing sensitive information, and to not show footage such as the clips from Iraqi television. Kudos.

    On the other hand, it is apalling that they have put on some of the family of the killed and captured US soldiers. Most have no experience in public speaking. The interviews are mostly awkward and uninformative. Even Dan Rather, interviewing one mother by phone, appeared to sense that it was inappropriate.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    Originally posted by Michael Stumpf

    On the other hand, it is apalling that they have put on some of the family of the killed and captured US soldiers. Most have no experience in public speaking. The interviews are mostly awkward and uninformative. Even Dan Rather, interviewing one mother by phone, appeared to sense that it was inappropriate.
    There's so much to report on with the war effort, but 15 minutes into the Today Show this morning they bring out the relatives. They do this all the time during war or peace. I'm going to have a line in my will that prevents my relatives from being interviewed by Katie Couric if I die a sensational, news-worthy death.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Habanero's avatar
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    Originally posted by bturk
    Beaner WTF? Is that some Oopa Loompa on acid?

    And this morning I heard Michael Moore's sound bite from the Oscars. That man is an embarrasment to this country.
    hee- I think that's Gustof- he got sucked up the pipe in the chocolate park.

    Mr. Moore good bood like crazy, I just happened to be watching that. It was awful, just because he has avoice doesn' tmean it needs to be heard and not on behalf of everyone.
    When Jesus said "love your enemies", he probably didn't mean kill them.

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