Urban planning community

+ Reply to thread
Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Detroit v. Philadelphiaa

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gale Crater
    Posts
    2,842

    Detroit v. Philadelphiaa

    Big game tonight: 76ers host the Pistons! Detroit is up two games to none, after Detroit came back the other night in the 4th quarter and slammed Philadelphia in OT!

    Who's the better city? The Detroit Free Press chimes in (sort of - you be the judge):

    Motown vs. Philly

    May 10, 2003

    The City of Brotherly Love and the Motor City
    A few comparisons

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Fattest city

    *Detroit is third in U.S.

    Philadelphia is fourth.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Homes without plumbing
    Metro Detroit: 0.7 percent.

    Metro Philadelphia: 1.1 percent.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Coolness (as defined by "Underground USA")
    Detroit: 18 pages.

    Philadelphia: No mention.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Music
    Detroit: Global r-e-s-p-e-c-t.

    Philadelphia: John Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, doo-wop bands, Todd Rundgren, Chubby Checker, Frankie Avalon, the O'Jays, Teddy Pendergast, Boyz II Men and, yes, Dick Clark.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Shrinking cities
    Detroit: Lost more than 800,000 since 1950. Population is 951,270.

    Philly: Lost more than 500,000 people since 1950, and stands at 1,517,550

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of vehicles:
    Metro Detroit: 3.57 million.

    Metro Philadelphia: 3.51 million.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Top five ancestries
    Metro Detroit: German, Irish, Polish, English, Italian.

    Metro Philadelphia: Irish, German, Italian, English, Polish.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    African Americans
    Detroit: 775,772.

    Philly: 655,824.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Funniest native
    Detroit: Lily Tomlin.

    Philadelphia: Bill Cosby.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Best known citizen who wears a hooded sweatshirt
    Detroit: Marshall Mathers III (Eminem).

    Philadelphia: Rocky Balboa.


    From: http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/...0_20030510.htm

  2. #2
    Member Sue's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    lonely planner listserve
    Posts
    21
    Brotherly LOVE, Rules! I don¡¦t follow sports too much¡K. ƒº

    OK: I¡¦ll Give ya that Detroit IS ROCK City (& I luv ROCK), but don¡¦t ya forgit G-love and the Special Sauce, George Thorgood, Frog Holler, Tommy Cromwell, The Hooters, Robert Hazard, and countless blues folks.

    I think your effect of the Shrinking cities subject contradicted itself.

    If you want to compare traffic¡K.I think less vehicles in a city is better than more¡K..unless you want to own Iraq.

    As for ethnicity¡K.REDHEADS RULE!

    As for the funniest native category¡K..How about david brenner?(or how-ever you spell it)

    And Rocky could kick Eminem sweet ASS any day ļ


    And let's face it.......it's the BEST pizza and the ONLY place you can find a REAL soft pretzel!!!!!!!!!

  3. #3
    as a former michigander i'm certainly partial to the pistons. as i write this the series with the sixers is tied 2-2, and the pistons got spanked last night.
    i have a lot of family living in oakland county, which would help explain the connection. the northern suburbs are a perfectly nice, if a bit gaudy. the city of detroit continues to languish.

    as far as city health goes, philly is in far better shape. it helps that philly's architecture and setting are significantly nicer to look at.

    i could be wrong, but is detroit the largest metro area in the world without a rail transit system? (the people mover doesn't count)

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Mr. Cool Ice
    Posts
    4,161
    Originally posted by Sue


    OK: I¡¦ll Give ya that Detroit IS ROCK City (& I luv ROCK), but don¡¦t ya forgit G-love and the Special Sauce, George Thorgood, Frog Holler, Tommy Cromwell, The Hooters, Robert Hazard, and countless blues folks.

    .....and how could one ever forget the likes of Cinderella and Britney Fox !!

  5. #5
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    1,472
    I hadn't even thought about it like that before but i couldn't imagine Philly without it's regional rail system nevermind the subways and trolleys.

    The center city office market would disappear without SEPTA.
    220,000 people take the train or bus to work downtown. Companies would have no choice but to move to the suburbs because there'd be no way to get all those people here and even if you could where would you put all those cars?

    All those people driving would fill 3 lanes of I-76 from Philly to Pittsburgh and back - bumper to bumper.

    oops.


    So, yeah, basically center city would shrivel up and die.
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  6. #6
    jresta,
    you mentioned that center city wouldn't be nearly what it is without septa, well conversely i would argue that detroit was helped along to its current state by the freeways - they allowed for not just residential, but commerical and industrial flight to the suburbs as well.

    interesting to look at maps of the two metro areas, detroit has a comprehensive freeway network, while philly's is pretty sparse - wasn't the blue route (i-476) completed only within the last ten years or so?
    again, i could be wrong but it looks like philly has the among the lowest proportions of expressway miles per person for u.s. metro areas.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    1,472
    You don't need to argue - I completely agree.

    The Blue Route was just finished in '92 and I-295 on the Jersey side of the river was finished in '94. I-676, which i think was a disaster for camden and center city, was finished in '91.

    we have about 500k more people to count than detroit so i think it's safe to say that they have a lot more freeway lanes than we do.

    It's funny to see how sprawl really accelerated around here in the 90's (after all these projects were completed) along the new routes. Forunately, though, existing development held back a lot of the more ambitious freeway proposals in PA and in South Jersey the Pinelands regulations held back the rest.
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Someplace between yesterday and tomorrow.
    Posts
    11,966
    AHHHH I knew this would happen to me. I grew up in Michigan and my Grandfather spent almost his whole Firefighting career in the "D" but now, I live 50 miles out side of Philly... I know both, seen both, dated women from both, and I have to go with the "D"

    Philly does have better public transportation, but Detroit is like the mythical Phoenix that crumbled, and then rose again out of the ashes. Detroit was once the center of the industrial kingdom with its auto plants. Now, the assembly lines have become corporate offices. The city has also aggressively worked to rehabilitate many of the neighborhoods. Many of the homes that where one time drug houses, are now historic buildings owned by Layers and Doctors.

    Although it does not have the history that Philly has, it has more love to give. If you walk down the street in Philly, locals will look at you like you have two heads, but the least you will get in D-town is a respectful nod.

    It is, the city that keeps moving, changing, and never gives up.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gale Crater
    Posts
    2,842

    Regarding Detroit

    What fiction have you been living? Have you ever spent any time in Detroit?

    ...the assembly lines have become corporate offices...
    No.

    ...the city has also aggressively worked to rehabilitate many of the neighborhoods...
    Hardly.


    ...many of the homes that where one time drug houses, are now historic buildings owned by Layers [sic] and Doctors...
    The glaciers of the most recent ice age moved faster than gentrification in Detroit.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian plankton's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2003
    Location
    coastal rainforest
    Posts
    747
    To all the other 313-ers out there: Give it up for Detroit.

    I was born & raised there and am going back for the first time in 8 years for a wedding this fall. Can't wait to see Ford Field, Comerica Park, and some of the newer development in and around Chene Park and Greektown.

    It sure would be nice to see Grand Blvd. come back to life. And Boblo Island for that matter!

    I've been to Philly twice. It reminded me of Detroit (especially the smells and the church-styles). Honestly, if I wasn't such a homer-voter for Detroit, I'd probably have to give the nod to Philly just because of the historic independence hall area, and its proximity to other east coast cities (besides Trenton).


    Go Pistons!

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Runner's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    566
    Originally posted by Sue
    Brotherly LOVE, Rules! I don't follow sports too much.
    Ditto, and I could never really vote for "motor city" anyway...

    Speaking of Detroit, check out this site:
    Fabulous Ruins of Detroit
    Cheers,
    UrbanRunner
    :)
    _____________________________
    WWJJD
    "What Would Jane Jacobs Do?"

  12. #12
    Cyburbian SW MI Planner's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    3,141
    To all the other 313-ers out there: Give it up for Detroit.
    Ooh! Ooh!

    I withhold my vote because I've never been to Philly, but I personally love Detroit. That website is fabulous, so check it out if you get a chance.

    By the way, Marriot is getting closer to renovating the Book-Cadillac Hotel. .




  13. #13

    Registered
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,548
    Originally posted by bestnightmare
    jresta,
    you mentioned that center city wouldn't be nearly what it is without septa, well conversely i would argue that detroit was helped along to its current state by the freeways - they allowed for not just residential, but commerical and industrial flight to the suburbs as well.
    I'm a native Detroiter who left over 20 years ago but goes back once or twice a year. I've been to Philly twice on business, and I loved it! Frankly, it made me think of what Detroit could've been, had there not been such a widespread freeway system, bad rep from the '67 riots and the '70s "Murder Capital" tag, and the polarizing Coleman Young years. I loved South Street, I loved much of South Philly for its funkiness and grittiness, and Center City is very cool for a downtown. North Philly and parts of West Philly, however, are like places that can be found in many large cities.

    Fifty years of bad political and policy decisions started with the construction of Detroit's freeway system and ended when Dennis Archer took office. Archer did well just by getting the region to recognize the importance of a vibrant city. Kwame Kilpatrick has much to build on.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gale Crater
    Posts
    2,842
    Originally posted by pete-rock
    ...fifty years of bad political and policy decisions started with the construction of Detroit's freeway system and ended when Dennis Archer took office...
    Not exactly.

    Manufacturing jobs brought black southerners to Detroit throughout the 1940s and 1950s, and the white people got scared and moved out. Yes, bad policies, like red lining, helped facilitate this process, but the fear and paranoia of the whites was the major factor.











    For more information, see The 1943 Detroit Race Riots on the Detroit News Online.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
    Registered
    Sep 2001
    Location
    skating on thin ice
    Posts
    6,958
    I have only been to philly once, when I was young and then only to the zoo.

    I lived across the river from detroit for 5 years during university and visited it frequently.

    A few observations from the past 10 years,
    1) Devil's night seems to be greatly reduced, we have more fires here.
    2) the neat neighbourhoods are recovering and still seem affordable (mexican town, greek town)
    3) there are some great buildings that only need the right person to see the potential in them.

    My favourite places in Detroit where/are:
    1) Mexican Town - party stores galore, good food, houses with lots of potentail that are affordable.
    2) The old state theatre, saw some great concerts there.
    3) Old Tiger Stadium and surrounding neighbourhood.
    4)Greek Town where else would a synagogue and a catholic orphange share the same building?

    Least favourite things:

    1) Cobo Hall and surroundings, big modern crap
    2) Joe Louis Arena, can't even stand up in ths last row of seats, it is a long fall down the stairs when you are drunk.
    3) The chrysler centre-can't remember the architect's name, but atlanta has one as does dallas. wastes the great connection to the river that could have been developed.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  16. #16

    Registered
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,548
    Originally posted by Alan
    Not exactly.

    Manufacturing jobs brought black southerners to Detroit throughout the 1940s and 1950s, and the white people got scared and moved out. Yes, bad policies, like red lining, helped facilitate this process, but the fear and paranoia of the whites was the major factor.

    For more information, see The 1943 Detroit Race Riots on the Detroit News Online.
    I wholeheartedly agree with you there. No discussion about how Detroit got to where it is today should omit that part of its history, and I did.

    I would recommend The Origins of the Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue. He explains quite well how the setup for Detroit's decline was begun in the '40s and uses the Riot of 1943 as a starting point.

    As more southern blacks moved in, they were limited residentially (real estate covenants, red-lining), they were excluded from union protection (but not union membership and the dues that could be collected), manufacturing jobs as well as white residents moved to the suburbs, and the shrinkage of the manufacturing sector reduced the total number of jobs. And white fear was at work more in Detroit than possibly anywhere else in the US.

  17. #17
    thanks for pointing out "the fabulous ruins of detroit", detroityes.com.

    so it seems that detroit experienced a perfect storm of multiple factors occurring at the same time to cause the current state of affairs.

    the naturally occurring racial tensions were made far worse by several factors, which in turn helped spawn the worst case of white flight to the suburbs seen in any american city.

    the white flight itself was helped along by the building of the freeways and the simple fact that detroit's economy was based on the automobile...so while the planner folks around here may cringe at the thought of the expression, "what's good for general motors is good for america", it was the gospel truth that what's good for the car companies must be good for detroit. and whatever little things could give the car companies a boost was seen as a big plus - ripping up the streetcar lines and replacing them with big-3 manufactured busses, and of course building the freeways which allowed for far greater mobility, at the same time requiring the use of the personal automobile to get around. bling bling for the car folks.

    i am not suggesting that the automobile manufacturers consciously capitalized upton this white fear and needed to perpetuate it for their own profit motive. what i am suggesting is that their simple lack of insight into the changing social dynamics of detroit, as well as a lack of foresight toward preserving the long term health of detroit, was what helped exascerbate the problem.

    this is what the average visitor to detroit sees upon entering the city from metro airport:

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Runner's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    566
    And thank you bestnightmare for helping us see the big picture
    Cheers,
    UrbanRunner
    :)
    _____________________________
    WWJJD
    "What Would Jane Jacobs Do?"

  19. #19
    Philly ROCKS...I'll take a large steak n' cheese sub at Jim's Steaks anytime!!!!!! mmmmm. I say this after going to Philly lots of times. however, I know some cool people who are from Detroit!!! but, I'll take Philly with its 30th. st. station n' all...

  20. #20
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Mr. Cool Ice
    Posts
    4,161
    Originally posted by LouisvilleSlugger
    Philly ROCKS...I'll take a large steak n' cheese sub at Jim's Steaks anytime!!!!!! mmmmm.

    You can not order anything in the City of Philadelphia called a steak n cheese sub.

    You need to ask for a Cheese Steak, a steak sammich, or simply a steak. You're liable to be made the laughing stock of the store if you order what you just said.

  21. #21

    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    Buenos Aires
    Posts
    1
    Philadelphia!!!

  22. #22
    Originally posted by Mike D.
    You can not order anything in the City of Philadelphia called a steak n cheese sub.

    You need to ask for a Cheese Steak, a steak sammich, or simply a steak. You're liable to be made the laughing stock of the store if you order what you just said.
    your right. haven't been back there in a long time. I miss a real cheese steak. all we have out here are those chains in the mall. man, I sure do miss Jim's though...deep sigh.

+ Reply to thread

More at Cyburbia

  1. Detroit 187
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 7
    Last post: 27 Sep 2010, 3:18 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last post: 06 Feb 2008, 1:48 PM
  3. Replies: 19
    Last post: 10 Apr 2007, 12:44 PM
  4. Hello from Detroit!
    Introduce Yourself
    Replies: 7
    Last post: 04 Mar 2007, 8:15 PM
  5. What to see in Detroit?
    Cities and Places
    Replies: 14
    Last post: 26 Apr 2005, 12:03 PM