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Thread: Impacts of suburbia on children

  1. #26
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Originally posted by mugbub1
    Beaner, did that awful movie provoke you to puke? I liked when that sloppy, fatass, dummy, Michael Moore was on Bill O'Reilly's show. Bill exposed him for what he is: a whiny liberal offering no solutions. SNL also spoofed him real good. Don't tell me you support him?
    I thought the movie was f***ing hilarious!

    Originally posted by BKM
    I would love to see an SNL parody of Michael Moore. The comic potential is awe-inspiring.
    I saw the parody Saturday night. They had Jimmmy Fallon as Michael Moore. Jimmy had Moore's body ticks, facial expressions, and speech patterns correct, but it was rather flat and lacked any slapstick. Plus, Jimmy wasn't even padded to match Moore's girth. Believable, but would be better if Chris Farley had done it (If he were still alive... SOB!).

    Originally posted by Michael Stumpf
    Trust Mugbub to call this one right. Moore is a useless and unimaginative whiner without the intellect to do a credible or unbiased analysis of any issue.
    Moore is definitley more of a provacateur than an academic, that's for sure!

    I saw the movie Saturday night, a 7:00 pm showing at the local suburban multiplex. There were about 40 people in the theater. During the most obvious funny scenes, only about five in the theater were regularly laughing, myself included. The others must have been shell-shocked. (No pun intended.) I'm from Michigan, and Moore, a Michigander himself, connects and indicts many of the unfortunate incidents involving guns from the recent past to people and places in Michigan. An astonishing revelation! For those who never visited Michigan and actually saw the movie, I am sure they will now forever think of the Great Lakes State as a crazy place with crazy people.
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 21 Nov 2006 at 1:32 PM.

  2. #27
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    I also saw the movie and it was very eye opening. Yes it was slanted against the NRA. However I would argue that Moore raises the bar on movie making just as O Reilley lowers the bar on newscasting. Maybe if the corporate "news" channels were doing their jobs we would know what is going on in our world instead of OJ, snipers, Sadam and Osama, bleeds it leads, sexual scandals, celebrity gossip. and after the "news" ,sports, lottery and weather sponsored by hummer.

  3. #28

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    home sweet home

    My hometown, Virginia Beach, is a good example of a suburb trying to define itself, especially in a region that desperately needs an identity. VB was incorporated in 1963 when it got sick of Norfolk ceding itself parts of Princess Anne County...so PA County and the Town of Virginia Beach (what tourists know as the Strip) merged to become City of Virginia Beach. So for years we were a tourist trap, but as population exploded, so did development...so now we have 425,000 people (or so) in this huge suburb of Norfolk.

    Now we have the 38th largest city in America with an identity crisis. Certainly we have the population to stack up against a lot of other good-sized cities, but except for a line of hotels on the Oceanfront, it looks as homogenous as you can get. Until last month when they opened a 22 story office building alarmingly close to my high school. So exactly what our vision for VB's future is becomes unclear: are we a suburb of Norfolk and a Navy town? are we going to be an edge city of Norfolk (shades of Reston, VA)? are we still a tourist town? I'm not sure I have the answers to these questions, but it's a good example of a fairly new city trying to find itself maybe in the wrong places.

    Thoughts?

    -Ben

  4. #29
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    I've been to Virginia Beach once so can only give an outsiders perspective. When I arrived on greyhound in Norfolk I went to it's transit center to ask how to get by bus to Norfolk. They told me I couldn't take a transit bus there, so I had to take the greyhound. This is the same city that declined to be a part of the Hampton Roads light rail project which was approved by all of the other cities in the region. I found the beach to be nice with palms and faux trolleys. The rest of the "city" is disorganized sprawl. The other cities in the area are more urban and interesting ,so those who decide to move to isolated sprawl probably enjoy their choice, and are not ready for transit and mixed zoning. If current trends persist however the residents will tire of their aging homes and follow the freeways to more isolated less urban locales. Maybe those who remain will then want to become a city or create neighborhoods.

  5. #30
          Downtown's avatar
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    Re: Re: Michael Moron

    Originally posted by Beaner


    I thought the movie was f***ing hilarious!
    I too loved the movie, but then, I'm a big Michael Moore fan. I saw it in NYC, in a sold out show, and it was really well received.

  6. #31
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    I think suburbia is a decent place to raise little kids, but once they hit puberty they need to be more in touch with societal influences. Suburbia is too segregated from the world of work and what people actually do as adults to make a living. I grew up in a suburb, and my refusal to drive (for environmental/geological/political reasons) left me even more isolated. That's why it took me till age 25 to realize that college would be necessary for me to earn a decent living that would allow me to achieve my dreams, let alone figure out WTH I should major in.

    The other thing (I've said this before, but I think it's especially relevant to this thread so it's worth repeating), is that sprawling culdesac development provides absolutely no sense of spatial orientation to either the cardinal directions or a recognizable urban center. This is why I never did homework. How can you have any concept of goals/deadlines/tomorrow or next week when you can't even comprehend where things are in relation to each other and how much time it takes to get there? I'm guessing if I grew up a steetwise citykid, my long range thinking ability might have turned on a bit sooner, and I might have actually had a clue about how I want to proceed with life after high school. But of course there would have been downsides to a childhood in the city too.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq

    The other thing (I've said this before, but I think it's especially relevant to this thread so it's worth repeating), is that sprawling culdesac development provides absolutely no sense of spatial orientation to either the cardinal directions or a recognizable urban center. This is why I never did homework.
    THIS is a novel explanation for slacking. I don't think even RUSH thought of this one (Subdivisions). dobocq-you think too much.

    One could argue that the whole system of industrialized education fails a significant portion of the population-especially as working within a regimented industrial system becomes less and less of a viable option. But, to say your brain was fried/undeveloped because of loop roads seems...reaching...a bit.

    Well, there are downsides to childhood everywhere. Childhood sucks. Being a teen generally sucks.

  8. #33
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BKM
    THIS is a novel explanation for slacking. I don't think even RUSH thought of this one (Subdivisions). dobocq-you think too much.

    One could argue that the whole system of industrialized education fails a significant portion of the population-especially as working within a regimented industrial system becomes less and less of a viable option. But, to say your brain was fried/undeveloped because of loop roads seems...reaching...a bit.

    Well, there are downsides to childhood everywhere. Childhood sucks. Being a teen generally sucks.
    Well if you're living at 10842 Meadow road, WTH is that street address in relation to? How many years have to pass before a kid is even allowed to venture far enough out, long enough to discover the actual center of town? I think living amonst the grid, or at least a dense canyon-like network of streets such as in Paris, better conveys the passage of time. In a rural area, you'd be aware of the cardinal directions because it's obvious where the sun rises and sets over open fields. In a city, cardinal directions are learned because on any given street, they are used to tell you where you are in relation to the town center (along with the street address which tells you very specifically). This facilitates the concept of doing errands and tasks. It SAH would have helped my understanding of x and y coordinants in linear Algebra.

    Where I grew up, I could never remember how to get to anything because most destinations required a car or school bus. So if I wanted to ride my bike to a specific destination, I'd have to roll back in my head in a linear fashion, the scenery of the road to remember what direction in relation to my house I'd have to start out from to get there. In a city, I could have easily realized: "Oh, that's northeast of here, go this many blocks here, and this many blocks here." And I'd realize there are numerous routes that would get me there in the same time, with no worry of getting lost. A much more dynamic process. The suburb on the other hand was always one-dimensional, back and forth, and linear.

    Cardinal directions are essential to the development of objectivity which is crucial for decision making and effective time management. I confess, I remained in a state of subjective idiocy about my surroundings and how to get things done for far too long. Then within 8 months of moving to the big city, I got mugged in the ghetto. Alas, I was no longer ignorant of my surroundings.

    Interesting point you make about the obsolescence of our institutionalized industrial system of education.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Well if you're living at 10842 Meadow road, WTH is that street address in relation to? How many years have to pass before a kid is even allowed to venture far enough out, long enough to discover the actual center of town? I think living amonst the grid, or at least a dense canyon-like network of streets such as in Paris, better conveys the passage of time. In a rural area, you'd be aware of the cardinal directions because it's obvious where the sun rises and sets over open fields. In a city, cardinal directions are learned because on any given street, they are used to tell you where you are in relation to the town center (along with the street address which tells you very specifically). This facilitates the concept of doing errands and tasks. It SAH would have helped my understanding of x and y coordinants in linear Algebra.

    Where I grew up, I could never remember how to get to anything because most destinations required a car or school bus. So if I wanted to ride my bike to a specific destination, I'd have to roll back in my head in a linear fashion, the scenery of the road to remember what direction in relation to my house I'd have to start out from to get there. In a city, I could have easily realized: "Oh, that's northeast of here, go this many blocks here, and this many blocks here." And I'd realize there are numerous routes that would get me there in the same time, with no worry of getting lost. A much more dynamic process. The suburb on the other hand was always one-dimensional, back and forth, and linear.

    Cardinal directions are essential to the development of objectivity which is crucial for decision making and effective time management. I confess, I remained in a state of subjective idiocy about my surroundings and how to get things done for far too long. Then within 8 months of moving to the big city, I got mugged in the ghetto. Alas, I was no longer ignorant of my surroundings.

    Interesting point you make about the obsolescence of our institutionalized industrial system of education.
    I'm not sure I disagree with the basic premise of imageability, but I'm not sure, if I am understanding your argument, that cardinal directions are that essential. Most pre-modern cities, for example, were warrens of convuleted streets and tiny squares. Now, one difference may be that residents of a Siennese Contado rarely left the neighborhood, but even so, rational, easily understandable urbanism is a fairly late development.

  10. #35
    Cyburbian boilerplater's avatar
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    Nobody ever took you camping when growing up, dobo? No Boy Scouts? No orienteering merit badge? No relative who wanted to take you hunting? To add the conversation, what do you think of the theory about men having more developed wayfinding abilities, since they were the ones who, in primitive societies, had to go out and hunt for food? Would you argue that if this faculty is not developed, then kids lack the vision to find their way in life?

    Although I grew up in tract-home suburbia (one so noted that sociologist Herbert Gans wrote a book about it) I enjoyed the freedom to roam at an early age. At the edge of the development was an area left scarred and hilly by a failed development, since taken over by kids with dirt bikes. A fantastic labyrinth of trails had developed. I knew them all. I also had the chance to do some traveling when I was just a kid, so maybe that also developed my directional abilities. But as far as always having a clear direction of where I wanted to go in life, no, I can't say I've had that. I've been really "lost" at times!
    Adrift in a sea of beige

  11. #36
    Cyburbian Breed's avatar
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    Having grown up in a military family, typically in close-quarters (lived my formative years in an apartment building with 18 families), I do see some differences between myself and my kids and her friends.

    I was pretty much permitted to roam about my neighborhood as I saw fit from an early age... about 8-10. My family and I live in what probably could be referred to as suburbia. My oldest daughter is 10, and we let my daughter pretty much go whereever she wants. Granted, my daughter is mature for her age, but most of her friends do not enjoy the same freedoms.

    One thing I think is funny. My daughter is one of the only kids who doesn't have a cellphone, but she is allowed to do more than other kids. I would think that having a cellphone would allow a kid more freedom... but that's just me.
    Every time I look at a Yankees hat I see a swastika tilted just a little off kilter.
    Bill "Spaceman" Lee

  12. #37
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boilerplater
    Nobody ever took you camping when growing up, dobo? No Boy Scouts? No orienteering merit badge? No relative who wanted to take you hunting? To add the conversation, what do you think of the theory about men having more developed wayfinding abilities, since they were the ones who, in primitive societies, had to go out and hunt for food? Would you argue that if this faculty is not developed, then kids lack the vision to find their way in life?

    Although I grew up in tract-home suburbia (one so noted that sociologist Herbert Gans wrote a book about it) I enjoyed the freedom to roam at an early age. At the edge of the development was an area left scarred and hilly by a failed development, since taken over by kids with dirt bikes. A fantastic labyrinth of trails had developed. I knew them all. I also had the chance to do some traveling when I was just a kid, so maybe that also developed my directional abilities. But as far as always having a clear direction of where I wanted to go in life, no, I can't say I've had that. I've been really "lost" at times!
    Oh yeah, I did some hunting with my dad, and some camping in Boy Scouts. I'm not saying I wasn't allowed to go out. I'd say my folks were pretty low on the overprotectiveness scale. There was lots of nice woods behind our house which I knew quite well. But it didn't do me any good for figuring out things about the adult world when I was a teenager - other than maybe to think about working at the grocery store and living in a treehouse. I think the problem was that most commerce occured along a single main road. This main road had lots of life, mostly strip malls, but commerce nonetheless. Aside from this road, things were pretty much sprawled out subdivisions everywhere else. You would never get to anything on the main road via a cross town route. It was always, go to the main road, and then everywhere I'd want to go was either one way or another on the main road. Kind of like searching for a specific song on a long mix tape. You have go through all sorts of different songs searching until you come across the song you want. Instead of like a CD. A city is more like a CD, because everything is distinguishable by a coordinate location.

    But yeah, I definetly would like to do a study sometime to see if a higher percentage of males know cardinal directions than females. They free you from having to rely on a set of linear instructions. I think this contributes in part to the stereotype of males not asking for directions (aside from stubborness, and not wanting to appear dependent on others). Why rely on steps through a mouse maze, if you've got a comprehensible mental map that gives you a birds eye view of where things are? I also think it makes some sense that men would be more into porn if their awareness of spatial relationships in three dimensions is more developed.

    No wonder I didn't understand the significance of cardinal directions till long after puberty - whoever has anything but female teachers in elementary school? Besides, when you're indoors all day (instead of out in the sun) at a suburban school far from an urban center, and no one farms anymore, you're pretty disconnected from all the historical reasons why cardinal directions have been useful. I'm not quite ready to want to become a kindergarten teacher yet though .
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

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