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Poll results: What do you think of illegal immigration

Voters
25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Close the borders right now!

    9 36.00%
  • We're a land of immigrants, let the masses come.

    13 52.00%
  • I don't care

    2 8.00%
  • other

    1 4.00%
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Thread: Immigration Moritorium

  1. #1

    Immigration Moritorium

    This can become a heated topic. I just want to know what people think about the illegal immigration situation in the USA. I live in San Diego where illegal immigration is huge.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    I think it was George Will that was commenting this morning (somebody correct me if I am wrong) about Pittsburgh. That wonderful city is making a concerted effort to attract immigrants as part of its economic development strategy. It wants to be seen as an appealing place for the entrepreneurs, scientists, artists, and others leaving India, Korea, Mexico and other countries to seek opportunity in America. Immigrants are more than the source of growth for cities, they are teh future of our country. In general, it is the best and brightest who are drawn by ambition and opportunity to leave their native country. Welcome! Come to Wisconsin!

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Runner's avatar
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    Living in Texas illegal imigration from south of the border is an ongoing issue here.

    A couple of good books on the topic:
    Beyond Smoke and Mirrors
    Debating American Imigration

    A major missed point in this area is that we have had migrant workers coming north for years and years and years. They are important for our economy and fill a role that we are unable/unwilling to fill ourselves. Only since misguided efforts to "close" the border have been made have major numbers of "migrant" workers been put in a situation that it is too dangerous to migrate (commute to work). The reaction has been that these workers increasingly stay put and if they stay put then they bring families along as well.

    So the world of unintended consequences has arisen again. As failed attempt after failed attempt has been made to "close" the border we now see our illegal population exploding. Before such naive attempts were made this population was relatively stable only fluctuating with the work season.

    Another important point is that the industries that rely heavily on this labor pool do not support clamping down on their labor pool and have influence in how "closing the border" attempts are crafted.

    Bottom line: Those who support "closing" the border are largely responsible for the burgeoning illegal immigrant population in this country.
    Cheers,
    UrbanRunner
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  4. #4
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    Originally posted by Michael Stumpf
    I think it was George Will that was commenting this morning (somebody correct me if I am wrong) about Pittsburgh. That wonderful city is making a concerted effort to attract immigrants as part of its economic development strategy. It wants to be seen as an appealing place for the entrepreneurs, scientists, artists, and others leaving India, Korea, Mexico and other countries to seek opportunity in America.
    No! More doctors and engineers will only drive-up the price of homes in the neighborhoods I'm looking to buy in.

    Just kidding. That has become part of an unofficial regional policy for economic/population development and I for one think it's a great idea for a city with a large aging housing stock and a high skill medical and tech based economy.

    As for the problems with illegal immigration...I grew-up in an area with a growing Mexican community, an unknown number of which were illegals. I would often hear comments from the local racist redneck welcoming commitee directed at this community and just thought to myself, "Is your white ass going to haul cement blocks and lay brick for 10 hours a day in 90 degree heat all day for $8.00 an hour or pick apples for minimum wage? Probably not!" I say make it easier for persons to get resident work permits in the US, thereby lessening the pressures of illegals.
    Last edited by biscuit; 02 Jun 2003 at 2:19 PM.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    My Take

    I'm married to an immigrant who will be sworn in as a US citizen this summer. God Bless America and I thank you all for letting her in this country.

    PS - America is a better place for letting her in.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Re: My Take

    Originally posted by el Guapo
    I'm married to an immigrant who will be sworn in as a US citizen this summer.
    Excellent!! Let us know when the big day occurs, so we can all celebrate Cuburbia style!
    All these years the people said he’s actin’ like a kid.
    He did not know he could not fly, so he did.
    - - Guy Clark, "The Cape"

  7. #7
    Cyburbian Greenescapist's avatar
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    I'd love to hear what are some people's reasons for "closing the borders now." There haven't been any comments yet from that crowd. I've seen some great economic analyses done of how immigration contributes to the overall US economy. It is an extraordinary benefit - besides the more obvious cultural, political and scientific ones, of course.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    I support.....

    LEGAL immigration and English as the official language. Learn the language and come to the country legally and I'll say welcome.

  9. #9
    I'll throw some issues out there for the close the borders camp. Illigal immigration, how much is enough? Should the military be thrown on the southwestern border? I think 15% of California's prison system is filled with Illegals. Shouldn't we know who is coming into our country. As of now a person can cross the border by foot, car, tunnel, and we will never really know their criminal history. Some thoughts to throw out for now.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mike D.
    I support.....

    LEGAL immigration and English as the official language. Learn the language and come to the country legally and I'll say welcome.
    What does that mean when you say "English as the official language"? Does this mean no bilingual education or ESL classes? No forms in Spanish if there are many Spanish-speaking people in the community?

    My ancestors undoubtedly did not know English before they emigrated to the U.S. Should they have learned the language before they came here?

    The "English only" movement has always seemed so xenophobic to me...

  11. #11

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    Because I live in a State groaning with population growth (California), I shamefully voted somewhat xenophobically. Can California really take another 15 million people? Where is the water coming from? What are the environmental/social impacts, especially as the State enters a period of economic stagnation (more and more middle-level software and technology jobs are being outsourced to cheaper labor markets. Remember when we all told displaced industrial workers to just learn "high technology"? That ain't the solution any more). And, since "middle class" folks continue to move to less crowded, cheaper places to live, that leaves California with the unskilled and the very wealthy-not a very stable social situation.

    Part of the reason for degrading jobs taken by immigrants is the very fact that we allow for a continuous flow of immigrants. No pressure to improve conditions or invest in labor saving technologies if the cheap, exploited labor continues to flow. If we have exported all of the "middle class" and ladder to success jobs to the Third World, how will this exploited workforce see real improvement? Are we heading towards a French model of little social mobility for the populations originally improted to do the undesirable jobs?

    Still, many of the arguments by the pro-Immigration side do appeal to me. And, what kind of police state must we establish to eliminate illegal immigration? Do we have to arm gangs of uber-patriotic farm owners in the desert to stop the coyotes?

    I also just wonder what quality of life will be with 400 million Americans.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mud Princess
    What does that mean when you say "English as the official language"?
    It means I want my ballots and street signs in english and english only and if you can't read it tough shit.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mud Princess
    The "English only" movement has always seemed so xenophobic to me...
    I am sure there are some to whom that is the reason for their support of a English as the official language as a national goal. But not all supporters are xenophones or zenonphobes (the fear of inert gasses) Others like me believe too much diversity will lead to the establishment of state-sized enclaves which, in turn, will lead to a balkanization of America eventually. I think we are going to have a major problem on our hands in fifty or so years. I believe that a common language is best. My ancestors spoke something different too. America, as an idea, is more important to me than race or culture. Thus it's survival should be placed as a higher priority than the continuation of "cultural pride" - even my own.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    I say open the gates and let them in. Let them get real tax paying jobs instead of unreported wages that so many get now.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    With respect to street signs, there is nothing better in Toronto then wandering through via Italia, with italian Street signs, China Town with chinese signs and the portuguese are with portuguese signs. These areas all have english signs also but the seond language adds to the character of the place.


    You could always try living in Quebec with Bill 101 if you want to see how not to be officially unilingual.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  16. #16
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    and here is an image of a chinese/english street sign
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  17. #17
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Originally posted by Greenescapist
    I'd love to hear what are some people's reasons for "closing the borders now." There haven't been any comments yet from that crowd. I've seen some great economic analyses done of how immigration contributes to the overall US economy. It is an extraordinary benefit - besides the more obvious cultural, political and scientific ones, of course.
    I'm one of that crowd.

    Take a good look at our immigration law, and it seems very tight and not unreasonable. You have to have a reason to come, more or less, and get on a waiting list. I know... I was helping an Aussie friend try and make it in. You see, el's wife did it the right way... she's being sworn in, and will be a legal citizen. (Not sure if by marriage or the "list", though...)

    What I despise is a group of people who, by luck of a common border and shortage of manpower, come here uninvited. Are we full? No... but neither is my house. And I don't want to find someone sleeping on my divan just because they found an open window. (Unless they might be a beautiful woman who has come for, erm... nevermind)

    And yes, I think when you come into the U.S., you should be prepared to integrate into the existing culture to some extent. Many a time, immigrants came to this country, worked very hard, and had areas of a city where you'd find a select group. To this day, especially in the northeast, large German, Irish, Italian (South Philly, Mike D.?) still exist. Yet, they're still American. Can the same be said for the folks in the barios of Southern California? Not really... Keeping your heritage is different than alienating yourself.

    I do believe that this country is, as it has been said, a melting pot of cultures from around the world... Well, I have no problem with that. But, if you want to come, come with the blessing of the U.S. government, and... be prepared to melt.

    That's my $.02, your milage may vary.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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  18. #18
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Olney

    Originally posted by donk
    With respect to street signs, there is nothing better in Toronto then wandering through via Italia, with italian Street signs, China Town with chinese signs and the portuguese are with portuguese signs. These areas all have english signs also but the seond language adds to the character of the place.
    Olney was a blue collar section of Philadelphia. Now, it's mostly a Korean population, with a few holdouts, and a section of Latino's to the south.

    Here's how not to come into a section of town. Buy a storefront, put in a small grocery or retail shop, make all of your signs with Korean only, and ignore anyone but Korean shoppers. Then, late one night, and without any permission from the city, put up Korean street signs over the exisitng signs. Have a nice little diner, with the cool hibachi's to cook meat, and have not a single waiter or waitress speak English. (I refused to be denied, of course, and made mooing sounds for my dinner, and clucked and flapped for the wife.)

    That... is how to come to a country and start some very bad blood. I know, I was there, and I saw how "well" it went. Why should the people living there welcome the newcomers? Like I said before... be prepared to do a little "melting".
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  19. #19
    Cyburbian
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    Oh please force inmigrants to learn english! It isn't that hard, at least it's better than the horrible mix called Spanglish *shivers*

    The gringo must learn to impose his language to the vatos and the cubans

  20. #20
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Mastiff,
    To answer your question: el's wife applied for a student visa for a US grad school after spending hours standing in line at the US Consulate. She scored first academically across all the city universities in a city of 12 million. Once here she obeyed the law, studied hard, and then got accepted into a Ph.D. program at the Harvard of the Plains. Once accepted to the Ph.D. program she had to leave the country to get her visa renewed. During her Ph.D. program she met me. We fell in love. I was looking for a rich redheaded farm girl. She was looking for a nice Indian Doctor. Who knows how love works? Once we were married she decided to apply for permanent residence (green card status). Then once the waiting period of three years of blissful marriage was up, she applied for US citizenship as the spouse of a US citizen. As an educated professional she could have applied on her own merits with no problem. The cost to us was about $2500 to date for all fees and expenses. We followed the process and are glad we did, and we both feel it was a fair process. INS was always courteous and they genuinely seem to enjoy working with foreign applicants. The process is slow and the paperwork was very tedious and slow to be processed, but I blame those with the purse strings, not the agency tasked with the mission. When she becomes a citizen she will have earned it, and I know she will value her citizenship as much as I do own.

    BTW She got a 100% on the government/history test.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Re: Olney

    Originally posted by Mastiff
    Olney was a blue collar section of Philadelphia. Now, it's mostly a Korean population, with a few holdouts, and a section of Latino's to the south.

    Here's how not to come into a section of town. Buy a storefront, put in a small grocery or retail shop, make all of your signs with Korean only, and ignore anyone but Korean shoppers. Then, late one night, and without any permission from the city, put up Korean street signs over the exisitng signs. Have a nice little diner, with the cool hibachi's to cook meat, and have not a single waiter or waitress speak English. (I refused to be denied, of course, and made mooing sounds for my dinner, and clucked and flapped for the wife.)

    That... is how to come to a country and start some very bad blood. I know, I was there, and I saw how "well" it went. Why should the people living there welcome the newcomers? Like I said before... be prepared to do a little "melting".

    I knew someone would know what I was talking about! I'm not talking about adding a little cultural heritage to a neighborhood...THAT is the stuff I'm talking about.....and now in Philly the Puerto Ricans and the Russians do it because the Koreans paved the way.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian
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    It's better to have legal inmigrants than illegal...of course the legal process can't be too easy, I know the US isn't Disneyland....

    I remember that when I was there my mom had to make lots of efforts to be able to work...

    Now on the What If issue, What if my family had stayed in the US? I'd probably be in planning school or something like that

  23. #23

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    "Are we full? No... but neither is my house. And I don't want to find someone sleeping on my divan just because they found an open window. (Unless they might be a beautiful woman who has come for, erm... nevermind)"

    What a great quote!

  24. #24
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    eG - Yep, I had a feeling y'all did it the right way. And I'm all for people just like your wife being admitted to this country. Now, how would you feel if she had been denied because they had just made a huge batch of illegals... legal? I'm for having our military use the Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California borders as a huge training ground. Let them view the illegals as "sappers", and take them down!

    Mike D. - Yeah, I lived in Olney while it was happening. Since I wasn't native, I didn't have the same hatred, but it was present right on the surface. Fights all the time, kids knocking over sidewalk displays of Korean markets... you name it.

    BKM - Thanks... even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mastiff
    BKM - Thanks... even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.
    Off-topic:
    That is one of my favorite sayings - the other being "Give an infinite amount of monkeys and infinite amount of typewriters and an infinite amount of time, and sooner they'll create the works of Shakespeare"

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