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Poll results: Can it work?

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  • Yes, it will work

    18 90.00%
  • No, it can not be done

    2 10.00%
  • Other (explain below)

    0 0%
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Thread: Can new urbanism exist in post-industrial cities? (former thread title: Yes, It can)

  1. #1
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Can new urbanism exist in post-industrial cities? (former thread title: Yes, It can)

    I have been trying to find examples of New Urbanism in dense, post industrial cities, that are already built environments. I have not found much.

    Here is my question; can the ideals of New Urbanism work in neighborhoods that are in dense, built environment, post industrial cities?

    We all here things about new communities that are “new urbanism” but have any places improved their city by incorporating these ideas into there plans?
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Milwaukee has a "City Homes" project underway, reclaiming dense vacant single family lots for new construction. It has been very successful at bringing middle class residents back to these former war zones.

  3. #3
    Yes it can be done. Milwaukee is a prime example of very successful New Urbanist principles being implemented. Milwaukee was one of the rust belt cities that has seen a recent (past 10-12 years) influx of numerous New Urbanist projects, especially in housing, retail, and entertainment/dining.

    Edit:
    ....looks like Chet and I both chimed in at the same time. I almost forgot about City Homes.
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  4. #4
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Re: Can it work

    Originally posted by michaelskis
    I have been trying to find examples of New Urbanism in dense, post industrial cities, that are already built environments. I have not found much.

    Here is my question; can the ideals of New Urbanism work in neighborhoods that are in dense, built environment, post industrial cities?

    We all here things about new communities that are “new urbanism” but have any places improved their city by incorporating these ideas into there plans?
    Let's clarify some terms, first. Are we talking about these ideals?

    If so, I say yes.

    Of course, this is easy for me to say having never worked with or for a post industrial city.
    All these years the people said he’s actin’ like a kid.
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  5. #5
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Yes, It can

    Checkout Bridgeport Village in Chicago.

    It is a 350ish unit single-family development in the neighborhood which continues the grid system. Its being built on former industrial land on Bubbly Creek.

    But I refrain from using either TND or New Urbanism to describe this development, because both terms are forms of branding, and branding/marketing is evil.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Let's not be didactic in this profession, because that is a path to disillusion and irrelevancy.

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  6. #6
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    There are several projects, past and ongoing, in Pittsburgh. Most are large scale developments on river front brownfields where the steel-mills used to be. A new one slated to get underway later this year is the leveling of several 1960's era apartment towers, reintroducing the old street grid that was destroyed by urban renewal and lots of new market housing. I'm excited about it and am actually considering buying a house in that neighborhood before the prices shoot through the roof in a couple of years.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Originally posted by biscuit
    There are several projects, past and ongoing, in Pittsburgh. ........... reintroducing the old street grid that was destroyed by new urbanism
    NU destroyed the old street grid? Please elaborate......
    All these years the people said he’s actin’ like a kid.
    He did not know he could not fly, so he did.
    - - Guy Clark, "The Cape"

  8. #8
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    Originally posted by SGB
    NU destroyed the old street grid? Please elaborate......
    Ooops, My bad. I meant Urban Renewal but was typing to fast and not paying attention.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian jordanb's avatar
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    Also, the Chicago Housing Authority is replacing the projects with mixed-income developments. They don't have mixed uses, but that's not much of a problem in the city where a commercial street is never more than a block or two away.

    New Ubanists always like to talk about mixed income but I don't think they've ever actually built anything that comes close to being considered mixed, so the CHA's success with it is pretty encouraging.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    My city of employment is still in the "reduce density" mode trying to compensate for a negative image as a crowded and dirty mill town.

    Michaeskis, HUD's Hope VI Program seems to have created a lot of NU style developments in inner cities.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Planderella's avatar
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    Originally posted by Seabishop


    Michaeskis, HUD's Hope VI Program seems to have created a lot of NU style developments in inner cities.
    I believe the latest edition of Planning magazine had a feature on the St. Thomas HOPE VI redevelopment project in New Orleans where the old housing development was demolished and is presently being replaced with single and two family homes. The entire project is being anchored by a huge ass Walmart, much to the dismay of many people. I've talked about this ad naseum in these forums before.
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  12. #12
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
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    What qualifies as NU in an existing city?

    I mean if a builder puts something up that fits in with its surrounding is that really NU or is it "old urbanism"

    Either way we have a lot of it in Philly. Most of it market rate, a lot of it driven by UPenn in the University City area, also a good deal of it mixed income and built by Universal Properties Inc. that has partnered with the PHA.

    As far as NU not building "mixed-income" developments - I'll just have to disagree. Just because they're market driven doesn't mean they don't accomodate people of different incomes.

    What i think you are reffering to are units for sale where the purchase price is subsidized by various governments. Again, from experience, i'll have to disagree. I see it all the time when a state or a Housing Authority is subsidizing part of the project. Otherwise, show me the bank that is going to finance a developer who is subsidizing the sale price of certain units with proceeds from other units. Banks don't like that kind of risk.

    In NJ of course, with Mt. Laurel I and II towns have to include a certain number of low and mod housing and they usually pass that responsibility on to the developers (when they're not buying housing credits from cities like Camden.) This doesn't mean, however, that the state doesn't subsidize those units.
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Ok now that I know it can be done, I just need to figure out how to get the idea across to people, and see where I can find funding.

    We have a situation here that may or may not be unusual with we do not have much, (if any) land for new development. The only large sections of land that we have right now are old rail road yards, and the company does not want to sell. Many of these ideas would have to be slowly worked into neighborhoods that have existed for many years.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  14. #14

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    Originally posted by jresta
    What qualifies as NU in an existing city?

    I mean if a builder puts something up that fits in with its surrounding is that really NU or is it "old urbanism"
    Exactly. I've always thought of New Urbanism as something that applies generally to suburban "greenfield" areas. Pretty much anything that blends in with the surroundings of most pre-WWII former industrial cities fits the definition of NU without the tag.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    Originally posted by jresta
    What qualifies as NU in an existing city?

    I mean if a builder puts something up that fits in with its surrounding is that really NU or is it "old urbanism"
    Infill development perhaps?

  16. #16
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    It is a combination of infill development, changing zoning for some mixed use, and providing for transportation other than auto. (Such as new side walks, street trees, and pedestrian scale lighting)
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  17. #17
    Cyburbian jresta's avatar
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    yeah, we don't call it "new" anything -

    there are no zoning changes. It's just infill that matches the character of the surrounding buildings.

    Buildings per se aren't mixed use all the time unless they occupy a prominent corner or are on a commercial street but like someone else said, It's rarely more than a block to a commercial street so the 'hood is still mixed use.
    Indeed you can usually tell when the concepts of democracy and citizenship are weakening. There is an increase in the role of charity and in the worship of volunteerism. These represent the élite citizen's imitation of noblesse oblige; that is, of pretending to be aristocrats or oligarchs, as opposed to being citizens.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    This is why I hate the term "New Urbanism" because there is nothing "new" about it except for the home.

    The design standards, principles, etc. are old. Simply call it what it is, you want to replicate what was done in our cities 100+ years ago, but for some reason, we can't.

    So, as was mentioned previously, we have alot of new "NU" developments going in Philadelphia, we're bulldozing blocks and blocks of ghetto to get it. But its simply called redevelopment.

  19. #19

    Re: Can it work

    Have you looked at Park DuValle here in Louisville. its in the West End. it fits a lot of the criteria you mentioned. as well as Louisville.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Ski's, Crosswinds has a couple of developments in Detroit and Monroe you should check out.


    Mason Run and Condos in Monroe,

    Condos in Detroit (warning do not look at the single family homes, you will be mortified)

    http://www.crosswindsus.com/Crosswin...mmunities.html
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  21. #21
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Check out JAPA Vol. 70, No. 4 Autumn 2004. There is an article about how well the NE worked in Pittsburg.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
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    <clears throat>
    If you will notice the dates, this appears to be thread from 2003. I doubt the subject matter is current (the teaser title would not be allowed any more if it were a new thread).

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Planderella's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Michele Zone
    <clears throat>
    If you will notice the dates, this appears to be thread from 2003. I doubt the subject matter is current (the teaser title would not be allowed any more if it were a new thread).
    Moderator note:
    I edited the thread title.
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