Urban planning community | #theplannerlife

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: What is the future of the traditional shopping mall?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    The Cheese State
    Posts
    10,074

    What is the future of the traditional shopping mall?

    This story was included in Retail Traffic Online. It seems to have some profound implications for shopping malls. What do you think, are they dinosaurs? Are we going to be redeveloping all of our malls into mixed-use centers? Maybe converting them into free-standing pads? Or are the malls going to reinvent themselves to once again draw in the customers? What interesting mall projects are you seeing in your neck of the woods?


    Story:

    Department Stores Down And Out
    You've heard it before, but now there's startling new data on the rise of the off-the-mall discounter. According to a study conducted by retail consultant Custom Growth Partners, mall tenants, especially department stores, saw their market share drop to 19 percent for 2002, compared with 38 percent in 1995.

    And things are only getting worse for the department stores. Wal-Mart was the top pick for women's clothing with more than 20 percent of consumers polled for BIGResearch's monthly retail ratings report. Power center-prone Kohl's came in second with 7.3 percent. And department stores trailed, with 6.3 choosing JCPenney, 3.7 percent choosing Macy's and only 2.9 percent choosing Dillard's.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian JNL's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Wellington, NZ
    Posts
    2,447
    My city is currently reviewing it's retail strategy and considering these sorts of issues. I think (and hope) we will see more outward-facing shopping centres instead of the closed-in, inward-facing kinds of shopping malls we have built in the last couple of decades.

    Botany Town Centre, in Auckland, is an interesting example of a new direction, and it won one of eight awards this year in the International Council of Shopping Centres (ICSC) awards for innovative design and construction.

    “Botany Town Centre is the first Greenfields development for a regional shopping centre in the Auckland market for 20 years. It is a destination in its own right and offers an unrivalled shopping and leisure experience for the people of East Auckland.

    “The 40 acre Botany Town Centre is the first centre in New Zealand and Australia to use a ‘High Street Community’ design with an indoor and outdoor setting – and it is this microcosm that has encouraged a number of retailers to open their most innovative stores to date,” said Churchill.

    Check out some pics here

  3. #3
    Cyburbian H's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2003
    Location
    MKS
    Posts
    2,847
    I have been seeing many “high dollar” mall renovations and image changing from traditional malls in the South East.

    Also, and this is climate restrictive, but outdoor style malls have hit hard in the SE as well, like The Avenue in Atlanta’s East Cobb or The Germantown shopping area in Memphis.
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Upstate
    Posts
    4,898
    I don't think it's the end of the mall. The latest trend is the power center: clusters of Big Boxes, spread out over many acres, requiring the customer to drive from store to store.

    The department stores have been losing market share for some time. So many of the department stores that were around when I was young are gone: Jordan Marsh, Korvette's, Gimbel's. I hear that Lord & Taylor is closing a bunch of stores too. Is it because Wal-Mart is taking over the universe? Declining apparel sales? I wonder how much demographics are influencing the change.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
    Registered
    Sep 2001
    Location
    skating on thin ice
    Posts
    6,960
    One of our malls is in the process of changing itself into an office complex. When teh lease came up for a low end department store (cheaper then walmart) it was not renewed, instead a call centre went in. As other leases come up the tenants are being booted to open up more space for offices.

    As for the other retail based mall it is about 25 years old and in need of a serious update. It is still dark brown and cave like on the interior.

    With our pending power centre an upgrade may happen as it is adjacent to teh area where teh power centre is going and may get a face lift to spruce up its image, but when zellers and the bargain giant are you anchor stores there is not much you can do.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    4,604
    There is a wonderful mixed use shopping "mall" where I live in Clarendon (part of Arlington Va)

    http://www.mccafferyinterests.com/co...urrent/mcc.htm

    I shop and dine here normaly on a weekly basis, its a very "alive" sort of place.

    PG
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  7. #7
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,825
    The dynamics changed here a few years ago with the opening of the giant Providence Place Mall downtown. For decades the center of retail activity in the state was two towns south where 2 large suburban malls sat side by side. Although Providence Place isn't true Mom & Pop downtown retail its brought the shopping public back downtown. Its pros vs cons will be debated forever.



    One of the two suburban malls has had tons of vacancies for the past 10 years and seems to be limping along. The part of me that resents the suburban malls' negative effect on downtown wants to see it die, although I don't want to see people get laid off.

  8. #8
    I think it depends on the demographics and location of the mall. In Milwaukee the malls near the more affluent areas of the metropolitan Milwaukee ares are thriving. I think the key to success is to adapt to the changing demands of the customer. Going beyond the traditional mall stores is key. There needs to be a better mix of stores, restaurants and services. We are currently working on a major mall redevelopment which will transform a traditional mall into a "city center" type area with clusters of buildings instead of one huge box. There will be a mix of restaurants, stores, entertainment and housing. There will be some public spaces too.

    I think that people are looking for more of an upscale, downtown kind of feel when they shop. Typical mall retaurants like McDonalds and Chik-Fil-A don't cut it anymore. People want to have a nice place to eat. Look at the success of the Cheesecake Factory. particularly when they are in or near malls.
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  9. #9
    Cyburbian H's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2003
    Location
    MKS
    Posts
    2,847
    Originally posted by Repo Man
    ....Typical mall retaurants like McDonalds and Chik-Fil-A don't cut it anymore... .
    HEY. Do not knock the Chik-Fil-A
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    4,604
    The Marketplace here is very upscale, rather trixie and chadish I would say, 2 starbucks on the same block

    but there are always folks out sitting, walking their animals (or mate) and talking. they do free outdoor movies in the summer etc

    they have made it a local place to be not just to shop.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  11. #11
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Western Pennsylvania
    Posts
    4,701
    The oldest mall here is being demolished to make way for a WalMart supercenter. The mall died a slow death after JC Penney moved six miles away to a newer, larger mall. It's sad to see the piles of rubble; at least someone is going to use the property.

    I don't know very much about Kohl's. SInce one opened in our community, I don't shop at the mall as much. The nearest malls are about 30 min. from here, so I use Kohl's.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    The Cheese State
    Posts
    10,074
    Kohls is outstanding. It has much better merchandise than the discounters, and still has great prices. JCPenneys seems to be paying attention and modeling itself after Kohls. On the other hand, you have to wonder what is up at Sears and how long it will be before they go under.

    Stores like Montgomery Wards, Sears and Penneys were the typical anchors of malls for half a century. Now they are gone, struggling, or reformatting. The more upsacle stores like Boston Store or Hudsons are all merging into a smaller number of chains. The old mall format is just not going to survive with these trends.

    I'll echo what some others have noticed. New malls tend to be entertainment venues or "lifestyle centers" offering not just shopping but a whole range of experiences which might have been founf in a traditional neighborhood commercial district. Often, they are even constructed as new town centers, with blocks of buildings, separate store entrances, and with a pedestrian orientation. These take an upscale market to build, though, and so I don't see many of them. What is more common is a "mall" made up of numerous freestanding or in-line big boxes.

    Redeveloping malls are very interesting as well. Many are converting to the types I mentioned above. With redeveloped malls, I think it is more common to see residential thrown into the mix. Donk's example fo conversion to an office park was one I have not seen before, but makes sense. Older malls are close to population centers, like inner-ring suburbs, are served by public transit, and may be more acessible to lower-income households. That addresses the "jobs-housing" location issues that often come up with new development on the fringes.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    Northwestern Ohio
    Posts
    9,327
    Toledo joined the mall express in the 1970's, much like other half-million metro pop cities. Woodville Mall, Franklin Park Mall, Southwyck Mall and North Towne Square Mall served the community well and prospered.....until the 1990's.

    Woodville now limps along, surviving only because it is the only major shopping area on the eastern side of our Maumee River.
    Southwyck has one (1) anchor left.....Dillards. (You read in a previous post about Dillard's value shrinking.) More on Southwyck in a moment.

    North Towne is dead....being converted to small business offices and (I think) "light manufacturing".

    Only Franklin Park, recently purchased by a huge Australian mall company, is solid. It is in the center of town, is ringed by every big box and chain restaurant you can think of, and is in the process of adding parking garages and many more stores.

    Can Toledo support a 2nd major.....similar in size to Franklin Park?

    Local developers for about five (5) years have been grabbing land in the fast-growing southwest metro, announcing and putting on hold and then re-announcing and putting back on hold a major mall with about five (5) anchors. Included in all of this spraw-mall fighting was a huge debate over the location.

    Seems that the Battle Of Fallen Timbers, a battle that many historians consider to be the "third most important battle ever on American soil", took place EXACTLY where this new megamall was going to be placed.

    And this location is just a few miles from the above-mentioned Southwyck. So that same Australian mall giant announces that they will buy Southwyck and "supersize" it. But the date they announced is long past and no word.

    And this Bear.....what does he do? I stay away from malls.

    Bear

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    The Cheese State
    Posts
    10,074
    Originally posted by Bear Up North
    Seems that the Battle Of Fallen Timbers, a battle that many historians consider to be the "third most important battle ever on American soil", took place EXACTLY where this new megamall was going to be placed.
    I thought I knew American history pretty well, but I'm drawing a blank here.

  15. #15
    I wonder if places like KC's Country Club Plaza will see a new beginning. that place was the first shopping mall from what I have read. but the irony is that the vision of the mall turned out ot be dramatically different than its creators vision. I have been reading a lot aobut Country Club Plaza as it looks quite impressive. I might be able to see it firsthand in Jan. someone on here posted pics not too long ago, as well.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Santiago, Chile
    Posts
    4,767
    Here in Chile, malls are begining to boom...although many have already failed, and those that ended abandoned were left to die under the unmerciful hand of punks and vandals that made a mess...I think the ones that failed (miserably) ended with a date with the demolition crew

    Sadly in my region, Malls aren't very big and aren't very good, some are barely living, and there's only 3. The 2 that are older, are small and barely living (1 in Osorno, 1 in Puerto Montt). The newest one barely has a few months old (it's in Puerto Montt, Valdivia doesn't have any malls yet) and at least it has a cinema. In Santiago, there's at least 5 big ones, the total must be around 10-12.

    I'm quite worried about the mall that's comming here to Valdivia, because, the downtown commerce is very bad, and the mall is being built near downtown (not in the outskirts). Another thing to worry about is that they're planning on doing a second mall, in Downtown, with a hotel, conference center and quite posibly a casino. It's a project for the Bicentenial of the Independance (2010) and I just can't see how the hell can the regular downtown commerce plus two malls can coexist without one of them dying...

    The current population of Valdivia is at around 130,000 Inhabitants (in a very large area I must add) and the total population that the city can atract (population from farms, towns, and small cities) would barely reach 175,000 people.

  17. #17
    Originally posted by JNL
    “The 40 acre Botany Town Centre is the first centre in New Zealand and Australia to use a ‘High Street Community’ design with an indoor and outdoor setting – and it is this microcosm that has encouraged a number of retailers to open their most innovative stores to date,” said Churchill.

    Check out some pics here
    WOW!!! that's pretty impressive. reminds me of Country Club Plaza in Kansas City in some ways. that was the first shopping center in America. however, malls have been the dominant style of shopping centers in America. and so many malls look alike.

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Seabishop
    The dynamics changed here a few years ago with the opening of the giant Providence Place Mall downtown. For decades the center of retail activity in the state was two towns south where 2 large suburban malls sat side by side. Although Providence Place isn't true Mom & Pop downtown retail its brought the shopping public back downtown. Its pros vs cons will be debated forever.
    I never got a chance to see that project in person despite being an hour away up in Boston, however I do remember a lot of the fan fare about it, and the loads of Boston people goind down there to shop and do other things. I visited Providence a bunch of times prior to the malls inception, and thought the Downtown area needed a draw. a lot of people I knew at Bryant College really wished there was more to do in Providence, and namely Downtown. its nice to see Downtown Providence doing something positive. and getting good results. I too resent malls for their negative impact on the downtown mom and pop operations. I think this is why I also loath Wal Mart, too. however there is a quandry, because they do offer low prices, however they often shun the local planning process and attempt to be fierce about driving out any competition. In economics class I learned competition is good - if Wal Mart is successful, there will be little of it, and likely higher prices.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,825
    Originally posted by LouisvilleSlugger
    I never got a chance to see that project in person despite being an hour away up in Boston, however I do remember a lot of the fan fare about it, and the loads of Boston people goind down there to shop and do other things. I visited Providence a bunch of times prior to the malls inception, and thought the Downtown area needed a draw. a lot of people I knew at Bryant College really wished there was more to do in Providence, and namely Downtown. its nice to see Downtown Providence doing something positive. and getting good results. I too resent malls for their negative impact on the downtown mom and pop operations. I think this is why I also loath Wal Mart, too. however there is a quandry, because they do offer low prices, however they often shun the local planning process and attempt to be fierce about driving out any competition. In economics class I learned competition is good - if Wal Mart is successful, there will be little of it, and likely higher prices.
    There's more to do all the time: Fleet Skating Center, Waterfire, more restaurants and clubs. The mall has added a degree of life to the area, and I don't think its hurting small businesses downtown (just my opinion). Downtown living hasn't really taken off yet although a number of projects are in the works.

    Oh, and happy birthday.

  20. #20

    Registered
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    1,548
    Originally posted by Michael Stumpf
    I'll echo what some others have noticed. New malls tend to be entertainment venues or "lifestyle centers" offering not just shopping but a whole range of experiences which might have been founf in a traditional neighborhood commercial district. Often, they are even constructed as new town centers, with blocks of buildings, separate store entrances, and with a pedestrian orientation. These take an upscale market to build, though, and so I don't see many of them. What is more common is a "mall" made up of numerous freestanding or in-line big boxes.
    Geneva Commons in Geneva, IL opened within the last year, and is emblematic of lifestyle centers nationwide. You are correct, Mike, in saying that they need an upscale market to build.

    To me, they're little more than the power centers of the '80s and '90s with a few more restaurant and entertainment uses thrown in.

    Getting off-topic: Also, I believe the Battle of Fallen Timbers was the battle fought between the Michigan Territory and the State of Ohio over who would control the Maumee River Valley (what would eventually become Toledo). Michigan was trounced, Ohio took over the valley, Michigan took Ohio to the U.S. Supreme Court, and was awarded a portion of the Wisconsin Territory as compensation. That portion is the U.P.

    There's a real reason for the Michigan/Ohio State rivalry.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    Northwestern Ohio
    Posts
    9,327
    Michael Stumpf and pete-rock.....

    The Battle of Fallen Timbers took place in the late 1700's. Armies of the United States, led by General "Mad" Anthony Wayne, fought a confederation of different Indian tribes and soundly defeated them. This victory led to the Treaty of Greeneville (OH), effectively opening the Great Lakes states for American expansion.

    Some historians argue that if it were not for that victory, the British would have assumed control of most of the Great Lakes.
    I would be writing this message from suburban Toledo,
    Ontario, Canada. Mr. Stumpf, depending on his exact location in the "dairy state" would also be speaking with the "aye".

    The "Toledo War" was the defining moment in the rivalry between Ohio and Michigan. That took place much later (aprox 1830). Even though there was no real fighting pete-rock is correct.....Ohio got Toledo (and the Maumee River valley) and Michigan got the upper peninsula.

    As for Ohio State versus Michigan.....my son has tickets to "the game" and has asked me to go, if I'm feeling better. Go Blue.

    Bear

  22. #22
    Originally posted by Seabishop
    There's more to do all the time: Fleet Skating Center, Waterfire, more restaurants and clubs. The mall has added a degree of life to the area, and I don't think its hurting small businesses downtown (just my opinion). Downtown living hasn't really taken off yet although a number of projects are in the works.

    Oh, and happy birthday.
    thanks!!! I appreciate it. interesting indeed. I think if the city can get the housing component off and running that could be a dynamic part that has been mising.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Michele Zone's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    7,061
    I have been meaning to reply to this thread for several days, but haven't had the time.

    When I lived in Manhattan, KS, the mall there was called 'Manahattan Town Center'. It didn't have the word 'mall' anywhere in its title (if I recall right). Every wednesday night, the food court had free entertainment, usually aimed at the kids, which was a godsend sometimes when my husband was in Saudi Arabia for 6 months and I was just dog-tired from doing the single-mom routine.

    They donated space to a charity, I think it called itself a 'children's museum'. They asked for donations but didn't require you to pay anything. They had hands-on stuff for the kids to do. It was fun and educational. It was only open for a few hours at a time, 4 days per week, but they would book group events during other times, for pay. People from as far away as Topeka -- an hour or so away and the state capital, one of the bigger cities in Kansas -- would book events there. It was awesome.

    About once a month, they would have an event over the weekend where a group of folks with a 'theme' would set up exhibit tables. Once, they had model trains. Another time, they had local craftspeople who did woodworking and stuff like that.

    That mall was wonderful. I think they also donated space to the 'art gallery' that sold the works of local artists.

    I couldn't buy clothes there because I was in my twenties and a military wife. So, I wasn't old enough or conservative enough for Dillard's and the like, but I was too old for the many stores that catered to the large college population there (11,000 students and 5000 facutly staff in a town of 48,000 -- a third of the town). So I bought most of my clothes in Georgia, while visiting relatives, when I lived in Kansas.

    I went to Washington state from there and they had a larger mall, but it sucked. I went more to the outlet mall in Pasco than to the 'regular' mall in Kennewick.

    The only innovative thing I can think of here in Fairfield is 'City Hall at the Mall', where you can conveniently pick up job applications during mall hours, if you cannot make it downtown during 'workday' hours. Not that it has resulted in employment, but, hey, I have given up on being hired anyway. I am just going to start my own company (or three).

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
    Registered
    Sep 1999
    Location
    400 miles from Orlando
    Posts
    13,856
    I'm just scared that if all the malls disappear, I will never be able to buy clothing again. Sorry, Wal-mart, you need to consider all American women are not 5.6".

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    The Cheese State
    Posts
    10,074
    Originally posted by Zoning Goddess
    I'm just scared that if all the malls disappear, I will never be able to buy clothing again. Sorry, Wal-mart, you need to consider all American women are not 5.6".
    Even worse - what about transvestites - won't somebody think of the transvestites?

    The thing I find surprising about Wal-Mart, or any of the similar discounters, is that people will shop there for clothing. I don't say that out of snobbery, but because the clothes they sell are mostly junk (men's at least, I haven't shopped for women's clothing). The fabric is thin, the stitching is poor, they don't fit well, and they wear out not long after you buy them. I'll stick to the mall for clothing, if little else.

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

More at Cyburbia

  1. Shopping mall
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 4
    Last post: 06 Jul 2010, 12:00 PM
  2. Replies: 50
    Last post: 24 Jun 2009, 11:07 PM
  3. Shopping mall residential
    Land Use and Zoning
    Replies: 4
    Last post: 05 Mar 2008, 10:21 AM
  4. Replies: 10
    Last post: 31 Jan 2007, 2:18 AM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last post: 18 Jan 2004, 10:20 AM