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Thread: Rant: They just don't get it......

  1. #1
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Rant: They just don't get it......

    One of our communities just adopted a comprehensive plan that intentionally excluded 40% of their population from its demographic analysis and, hence, from their policy recommendations.

    "What population is this?", you might be asking. Why it's only the entire population of this town's village!

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    [sarcasm]

    So what? They're just dirty mexicans anyway, right?

    [/sarcasm]

  3. #3
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    I'm confused

    Exactly, what population was it that was excluded, anyway?
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Every day is today. Yesterday is a myth and tomorrow an illusion.

    You know...for kids.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Mendelman: The village population is part of the town's population... and the town excluded all of those residents.

    SGB, I take it the village does not have its own plan?

  5. #5
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Originally posted by Mud Princess
    Mendelman: The village population is part of the town's population... and the town excluded all of those residents.

    SGB, I take it the village does not have its own plan?
    That's correct. They are working on their own plan right now.
    Keep in mind, that Village residents are not only also Town resident, but voters in Town elections as well. In otherwords, they too are consituents of the Town board.

    I've joked in the office here that perhaps we should exclude that particular "town outside" (town population minus village population) from our county-wide demographic analysis.

  6. #6
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Wait, wait. Still confused

    Originally posted by Mud Princess
    Mendelman: The village population is part of the town's population... and the town excluded all of those residents.

    SGB, I take it the village does not have its own plan?
    Are they separate munis. or is the village simply a neighborhood of the town, or is the village the old part of the town, the town being the sprawly bits added in the recent past.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Every day is today. Yesterday is a myth and tomorrow an illusion.

    You know...for kids.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Re: Wait, wait. Still confused

    Originally posted by mendelman
    Are they separate munis. or is the village simply a neighborhood of the town, or is the village the old part of the town, the town being the sprawly bits added in the recent past.
    The Village is a seperate municipality, and the old part of the town. The town outside the village is mostly agricultural and rural residential.

    In New York State, unincorporated neighborhoods in a town are often called hamlets.

  8. #8
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Ahh, Thank you for the clarification!

    Another example of confusion caused by state sovereignty!

    Edit: (and, I assume, "Town" is analogous to a "Town"ship in governmental heirarchy language)
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Every day is today. Yesterday is a myth and tomorrow an illusion.

    You know...for kids.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Illinois is organized in a similar fashion. The Township is a geographic and political entity of its own. part or all of one or more villages or cities may overlap the Township, but are themselves a separate gepgraphic and political entity. In Wisconsin, it is either/or.

    The situation you describe, while awful, is not at all uncommon.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian biscuit's avatar
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    Pennsylvania has a similarly convoluted and inefficient system of municipal organization. I've been working here for nearly 8 months and I still don't completely understand it.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    The least they could have done is a separate analysis for (1) the Village and (2) the part of the Town outside the Village. I know of several towns that have done it this way.

    Yeah, the system of villages and towns is definitely confusing. While in college, I worked as an intern at a not-for-profit organization, and had to go through tax records to find potential sites for housing development. I was so confused because my boss would send me to the village hall, then the town hall, and the buildings were within a few blocks of each other.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Oh, *now* I get it....

    From a town official:

    [Paraphrased] "Because the Town doesn't do anything within the Village I don't feel those numbers should be included in the Town Comprehensive Plan."

    If I were a Village resident, my immediate response would be:
    "Kindly stop sending me Town property tax bills, then. In return, I will stop using town facilities (roads, parks, public buildings, etc.), and will consent to my right to vote for Town officials to be rescinded."

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Hmm, now I'm dying to know which town...

  14. #14
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    It's a small victory, but a victory none-the-less

    The Town Supervisor just came in to discuss my recommendations with me. After some additional discussion and my offer for our office to revise the demographics at no cost to them (a consultant wrote their plan), he agreed they should make the changes!

    I also advised him that, IMO, the Town would not have to go through a formal re-adoption of the plan unless the changes include new policy statements.

    Other points I had made previously in a note to a Town planning board member:

    The County Planning Board ... letter of 8/6/03 to the .... Town regarding the comprehensive plan [included the following]: "On page 4, under "Demographics," the demographic analysis should include the population of the Village ......, as village residents are also Town residents. A demographic comparison of village residents vs. town outside residents may offer some significant insights."

    Additional reasons and advantages for including the Village population in the Town population demographic analysis comprehensive plan:

    * Village residents are Town residents. In fact, Village residents made up 40% of the Town population in 2000.
    * Registered voters in the Village also vote in Town officer elections.
    * The Town Board governs all residents of [municipality], not just those that live outside the Village limits.
    * Village residents use town facilities and services, including roads, parks, and public buildings. Village property owners also pay Town taxes to support the cost of Town facilities and services. In fact, according to the 2003 assessment records, village properties make up one-third of the Town's net taxable property valuation (the tax base).
    * Village population demographics are relevant to the Town in adopting policies that may make the Town eligible for funding of Town-wide projects. Community Development Block and recreation grants are but two examples.

  15. #15
    RobGuru's avatar
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    Originally posted by biscuit
    Pennsylvania has a similarly convoluted and inefficient system of municipal organization. I've been working here for nearly 8 months and I still don't completely understand it.
    Rant On

    You never really do understand it... except that the counties have virtually no power even though that's where much of the professional capability is, particularly in the more rural counties. I've been here 11 years. Also, once you realize that the NIMBYs and the ENVIROS and the Builders Ass'n have more sayso that the Planners, you'll feel more situated. Also, most state people are clueless, particularly PennDOT.

    Rant Off

    BTW... welcome to PA. Feel free to chat!!

  16. #16
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    PennDOT.
    If PennDOT means Department of Transportation, they are the same everywhere.

    How about one that plows and does light maintenence on private roads that enables / promotes sprawl, or one that installs culverts ,free?
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

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