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Thread: NIMBY: A Mosque

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    NIMBY: A Mosque

    A hot topic in Vorhees, NJ right now is a plan for a Mosque. I've attached the article for your use.

    All legal aspects aside, how would you feel if this was YOUR backyard?



    Mosque Article

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    I would not have a problem with it. The opposition is obviously racially / ethnically charged. This is Joisey after all.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Well as much as I feel I'm nice and accomodating to all....here's my take, and I'll take the "for instance" I heard on the radio this morning while driving in.

    If I was reviewing the plan in an "official" capacity, I'd have to approve it if all requirements were met.

    But.....now here's the "for instance" if the Mosque were say a "ballot question" of some sort at the polls yesterday, and nobody would ever know how I voted....I'd shoot it down.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    I guess I have seen the same thing with a Temple, with the LDS etc etc Hate and bigots run wild no matter the group. If it meets the requirements let em build.

    Ive had too many stones thrown at me for my own religious choices to cast one at someone else.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  5. #5
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    I'd have no problem with it.

    Viva la differance!
    All these years the people said he’s actin’ like a kid.
    He did not know he could not fly, so he did.
    - - Guy Clark, "The Cape"

  6. #6
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    My only concern with living near a mosque would be the daily call out for prayer and noise associated with it. If it was as intrusive as church bells no problem , but any louder/longer then I'd have a problem.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  7. #7
    Using the logic of some of these citizens, no Cathloic Church should be built either because it might attract pedophiles. The opposition is unjustified and prejudiced. I would think that the Board would approve it, or face a RLUIPA lawsuit.
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  8. #8
    Cyburbian
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    I'd have no problems with a mosque near my house, at least no more problems than I would have with other churches.
    Too bad that here catholics would energically protest against it, just like they did when the protestant german inmigrants came in mid XIX century.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    It will get built, and one of the tradesmen working on it will be a NSA operative installing listening devices. So go on, build, your mosque, your temple, your place of worship...the queens we use will not excite you.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Originally posted by el Guapo
    ...the queens we use will not excite you.
    Huh?
    All these years the people said he’s actin’ like a kid.
    He did not know he could not fly, so he did.
    - - Guy Clark, "The Cape"

  11. #11

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Originally posted by SGB
    Huh?
    Murray (sp?) Head, One Night in Bangkok, from the horrible movie/play, Chess.


    I would consider the mosque no differently that a church or synagogue. So long as its architecture did not clash with the neighborhood (I have seen some awful churches) and so long as the traffic, noise, and other impacts were not burdensome, go on and build it.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    No

    I would not like to live next door to a mosque nor a church nor a temple nor any place of worship. Not because of religion or bias, but because of traffic, crowds and people parking on the street in front if my home.

    I lived in a house next to a church in ATL a few years back and one Sat there was a wedding and some car parked in front of my driveway and blocked me in. I didn’t call a tow because I didn’t need my car, and it was only there for like 30 minutes, but it made me mad. This is why I would not like to live next to a mosque…the sudden crowds.
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Originally posted by Cardinal
    Murray (sp?) Head, One Night in Bangkok, from the horrible movie/play, Chess.
    MOD NOTE: That is a correct reference but beware Gooling that phrase from work. Porn fetish sites are top hits.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by Chet
    MOD NOTE: That is a correct reference but beware Gooling that phrase from work. Porn fetish sites are top hits.
    Sorry - There I go again getting good planners in trouble. When will I ever learn?

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    If it follows the ordinances and does not violate the land-use plan, or zoning map, how can it be denied. I think people are just scared of muslims after 911. Whats the big deal people?
    -Remember Timmy McVeigh, we have our own homegrown terrorists here as well. Look at the pro-life people? Blowing up abortion clinics and shooting docters. Now they have even more of an incentive to pull violence against women choosing the right to do what they want with their bodies because of this latest ban.
    -I'm predicting Bushy boy will be ousted in '04. And just for the fact that when he said they routed terrorists out of Buffalo, it was a great accomplishment. Hey jack-ass, it was Skankawanna (sorry skanks) and what about the other terrorists caught in Denver, Seattle, etc. Gives us another black eye why don't ya, its bad enough that your letting all of our manufacturing (and now service jobs) go to China and other countries. Oh wait I'd like to thank Clinton for that one as well, stupid. (oops sorry for ranting).
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  17. #17

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    The biggest issue out here was a Sikh Temple. I'm sure that there were ethnic prejudices involved, but another problem was they moved into a site in our sacred agricultural preserve area. Eventually, the temple got to stay.


    BIG, BIG OFF-TOPIC RESPONSE AND DIGRESSION


    Gives us another black eye why don't ya, its bad enough that your letting all of our manufacturing (and now service jobs) go to China and other countries. Oh wait I'd like to thank Clinton for that one as well, stupid. (oops sorry for ranting).
    I guess we need to get used to it. Here is one place where I won't "blame" Bushie, although he is certainly cravenly catering to the wants of his buddies. No president can stop the inevitable rush to the bottom of unconstrained modern capitalism.

    You might try to encourage boutique environmental industries like Denmark and Holand are, but we are talking about a country of 300 million , often poorly educated people. Get ready for the continued erosion.

    And, since our lifestyle is environmentally damaging, maybe that ain't bad either??? Maybe a return to 1950s levels of consumption isn't such a bad thing-although I am certainly not a good example for that. And, such a fall will have horrifying political consequences-after all, we all DESERVE the twin SUVs on a 1/2 acre lot lifestyle, don't we? Maybe the empire desired by the chickenhawk cabal can provide imperial administrative jobs for our brighter citizens-like the British Empire?

  18. #18

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    Another off-topic response.

    I predict that there will be another major terrorist attack (Osama and Crew WANT George W to win again-he's their best recruiting tool) and W will be overwhelmingly reelected. Patriot II will quickly be passed, and we'll all happily join in the new era.

  19. #19
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Test. Do you know the Constitution?

    The ability to be NIMBY about churches has been preempted by Federal Law - the RLUIPA (Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act).

    If a jurisdiction denies a church, the church can sue. The jurisdiction is presumed to be wrong and is required to pay all legal costs if it loses the suit.

    Okay. Now the test. What is the Constitutional basis for the RLIUPA?

  20. #20
    Cyburbian
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    I think RLUIPA's Constitutional basis is the second half of the religion clause in the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise thereof." I think it is considered to be extended to states and local governments (which, as was once pointed out to me, are creatures of their respective states), like the rest of the Constitution's amendments, by the 14th amendment: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of any citizen of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    I emphasized "person" because from what I remember in history classes in high school and college the courts since the 1870s or '80s have interpreted organizations, such as corporations and churches, as equivelant to "persons" with the same right to due process and equal protection that individuals have. So if a church is denied permission to do build on a site that businesses or individuals would be allowed to build on, it's got a case that it's not getting equal protection and treatment.

    On an off-topic note, the use of the word "persons" instead of citizens in those last two parts of that clause seems to be what immigrants' rights are based on.

  21. #21
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Nope, it's not any of the religion clauses. (For Constitutional scholars, that leaves only one left)

    A previous law based on the religion clauses was determined to be unconstitutional.

    Equal treatment has a lot to do with the philosiphical basis of the RLIUPA, so that's a good call. In particular, Congress had several instances where a city would allow an assembly use (like an Elks Lodge) and would not allow a church. So they used that basis to override city zoning in virtually all circumstances.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    Re: NIMBY: A Mosque

    Originally posted by Mike D.
    A hot topic in Vorhees, NJ right now is a plan for a Mosque. I've attached the article for your use.

    All legal aspects aside, how would you feel if this was YOUR backyard?
    What if it's already there? You might find this interesting, from the Ann Arbor News:

    http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/ind...8827322300.xml

    Truck kills 2 U-M students

    Monday, November 10, 2003

    BY AMALIE NASH AND CHONG PYEN
    News Staff Reporters

    ...The two women, identified by police as Teh Nannie Roshema Roslan, 21, and Norhananim Zainol, 20, were at the Islamic Center in the 2300 block of Plymouth Road when they began walking about 6:21 p.m., authorities said.

    They crossed into the center lane of the five-lane roadway, then turned around and walked back into the path of a westbound Ford Ranger pickup truck, Sgt. Brad Hill said...

    ...Ismat Hamid, who is active within the Ann Arbor Islamic community, said he has always been concerned for the safety of worshippers at the center, particularly during Ramadan.

    "There is no traffic light in front of the mosque. This is the only mosque in Ann Arbor, and we have great difficulty when we have an occasion, cars coming in and out, people walking across the street," said Hamid. "There must be some type of traffic (control)." ...

  23. #23
    Cyburbian SlaveToTheGrind's avatar
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    Mike D. What was the Zoning Board's decision?

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Jeff's avatar
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    Originally posted by SlaveToTheGrind
    Mike D. What was the Zoning Board's decision?

    YES

  25. #25
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Zoning Boards don't have much choice now that the U.S. has decided to preempt local zoning by requiring approval of certain land uses.

    By the way, RLIUPA is based on the commerce clause of the Constitution. The Feds have required cities to allow churches and religious activities in order to promote interstate commerce.

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