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Thread: The Second American Civil War?

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    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    The Second American Civil War?

    LOS ANGELES--Whatever your politics, you have to be oblivious to reality to deny that America today is torn by ideological divisions as deep as those of the Civil War era. We are, in fact, in the midst of the Second American Civil War.

    Of course, one obvious difference between the two is that this Second Civil War is (thus far) non-violent. On the other hand, there is probably more hatred between the opposing sides today than during the First Civil War.

    And I am not talking about extremists. A senior editor of the respected center-left New Republic magazine just wrote an article titled "The Case for Bush Hatred," an article that could have been written by writers at most major American newspapers, by most Hollywood celebrities, or by almost anyone else left of center. And the conservative hatred of former President Bill Clinton was equally deep.

    In general, however, the similarities are greater than the differences. Once again the North and the South are at odds (though many individuals on each side identify with the other). And once again, the fate of the nation hangs in the balance. The two sides' values and visions of America are as incompatible as they were in the 1860s.

    For those Americans who do not know what side they are on or who are not certain about what the Second American Civil War is being fought over, I offer a list of the most important areas of conflict.

    While the views of many, probably even most, Americans do not fall entirely on either side, the two competing camps are quite distinguishable. On one side are those on the Left--including liberals and Greens--who tend to agree with one another on almost all major issues. On the other side are those on the Right--including conservatives and libertarians--who agree on stopping the Left, but differ with one another more often than those on the Left do.

    Here, then, is the list of the major differences that are tearing America apart:

    The Left believes in removing America's Judeo-Christian identity, e.g., removing "under God" from the Pledge, "In God we trust" from the currency, the oath to God and country from the Boy Scouts Pledge, and so on.

    The Right believes that destroying these symbols and this identity is tantamount to destroying America.

    The Left regards America as morally inferior to many European societies with their abolition of the death penalty and their cradle-to-grave welfare and religion-free life; and it does not believe that there are distinctive American values worth preserving.

    The Right regards America as the last best hope for humanity and believes that there are distinctive American values--the unique combination of a religious (Judeo-Christian) society, a secular government, personal liberty, and capitalism--worth fighting and dying for.

    The Left believes that impersonal companies, multinational and otherwise, with their insatiable drive for profits, have a profoundly destructive effect on the country....
    Read the rest of the article: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/d...20031014.shtml

    Part 2 - http://www.townhall.com/columnists/d...20031021.shtml

    DENNIS PRAGER, a radio talk-show host, is a columnist for Creators Syndicate.

    Before anyone freaks, yes I realize he is a conservative commentator. I don't present the article as being without bias. But I think he is right. We will fight through the courts for a few more decades, but I think the shooting will start eventually. Sad -EG.

    (Dan) Quote tags added.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian iamme's avatar
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    You have done Fox News proud with your depiction of the "Right" and "Left" ideologies.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    What is this "distinctive American lifestyle" you refer to?

    Being an American, I am too fat and lazy to follow your links.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by iamme
    You have done Fox News proud with your depiction of the "Right" and "Left" ideologies.
    I didn't do shit...I just posted the guy's article (with a BOLD disclaimer at the bottom). Post your Village Voice diatribe if you feel it needs equal time. My point is we are getting very polarized as a nation. Wanna debate that point?

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    the debate itself is polarizing in the fact it is adversarial to begin with. Ergo, greater division.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  6. #6

    The Libertarians will rule the US government in the future

    The Nonlibertarian Tories are in trouble for the long run. One could see it as Libertarian ideology became much stronger and more pronounced throughout the 90's. I believe there will come a day when Libertarians and the Left will demand the removal of religious anything from all public domains, which includes money, national songs and even the Constitution. The Constitution will evolve/devolve into a document that has to respond to issues not yet found in our society. While I agree the American future has a few battles in it, before guns are fired something more incredible will take place! The advancement of a super race to intelectually run the country and the world. No, they will not be a specific color, nor religion but their intellect will be genetically enhanced way beyond our norms of today. This superior race will control economies with vicious detail resulting in human suffering on a much larger scale.
    Last edited by The Irish One; 18 Nov 2003 at 1:54 AM.

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    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    I love how spokespeople for the right attempt to speak for the left. Let me do the same thing, only vice versa ...

    The Left believes in removing America's Judeo-Christian identity, e.g., removing "under God" from the Pledge, "In God we trust" from the currency, the oath to God and country from the Boy Scouts Pledge, and so on.
    The Right believes in breaking down the barriers between church and state, and establishing Christanity, specifically the Southern Baptist and non-denominational evangelical forms of it, as a de facto state religion.

    The Left regards America as morally inferior to many European societies with their abolition of the death penalty and their cradle-to-grave welfare and religion-free life; and it does not believe that there are distinctive American values worth preserving.
    The Right believes that the sanctity of human life is far less important than that of corporations; that their survival and well-being is more important than that of the population as a whole. Excepting fetuses, of course.

    The Left believes that impersonal companies, multinational and otherwise, with their insatiable drive for profits, have a profoundly destructive effect on the country....
    The Right believes in unbridled lessez faire capitalism and economic Darwinism, a la late 1800s US and UK, discounting market failure and the trajedy of the commons, where the success of the lucky few justifies the poverty of the masses; that it's fine for people to light Cohibas with $100 bills and obtain Crosseus-like wealth through any means necessary while othes who may work just as hard while struggling to survive.

    Fair and balanced.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  8. #8
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    I heard an interesting comment on the right and the left. The commentator said that the ultra right has hijacked the "right" and the ultra left has hijacked the "left."

    So there are far right, right, left, and far left political leanings - but politics is only delivering far right or far left candidates. So moderates are being controlled by radicals, and the moderates would abhor the full radical program if it were implemented.

    Not that the above answers anything, but it argues against the civil war theory.

  9. #9
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Originally posted by Wulf9
    but politics is only delivering far right or far left candidates.
    Show me some far left candidates running for office on a Decomratic ticket. I don't see Michael Moore or any of the so-called "Hollywood liberal elite" on the allot.

    Strange, how the right complains about the supposed dominance of left-wing thinking among celebrities, while most Hollywood figures that run for office are Republican. I don't see Barbara Streisand running for the Senate, Charlie Sheen running for governor of California, or Jeanae Garafalo with her own AM radio talk show.

    I would argue that conservative liberals have hijacked the left. Richard Nixon had a political agenda that was far more liberal than Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton. If we didn't impeach him, we'd have the National Family Health Care Act -- that's right, universal, single-payer health coverage -- and minimum family income legislation. Nixon reestablished relations China (a pinko leftist Communist country), and championed environmental legislation that served as a model for the world. Even New Zealanders would have been envious of the safety net Americans would have recieved if Nixon wasn't booted.

    I get the feeling that there's far more malfeasance practiced by the Bush administration than by Nixon's gang. Of course, it would be unpatriotic and treasonist to do anything about it. 9-11, you know.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Originally posted by Dan
    Show me some far left candidates running for office on a Decomratic ticket. ........
    Al Sharpton, Carol Mosely Braun
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  11. #11
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Like El Guapo, I was quoting a talk show host for discussion purposes.

    But I did note that our (now recalled) Democratic governor was such a slave to his special interests that he could not represent the middle. However, I am even more struck that moderate Republicans continually hold their nose and vote unanimously for the most un-Republican things (like loss of personal freedoms, manipulated economies, deficit budgets).
    Last edited by Wulf9; 18 Nov 2003 at 2:33 AM.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    EG might suggest that the liberal media on the radio that is comparable is called public radio, in effect, he has suggested this.

    The format being comparable (radio), but enough difference exists to wonder why their are no "liberal" figureheads filling the airwaves.

    How about the possibility of more left leaning people prefereing thier dose of godless liberal dogma in PBS format, and those in oposition on the right leaning side hearing it from the head drug adict on the am dial?
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  13. #13
    Member Wulf9's avatar
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    Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    The format being comparable (radio), but enough difference exists to wonder why their are no "liberal" figureheads filling the airwaves.
    Actually, the reason there is so much conservative talk radio is that radio is a "subsidized" media. It is subsidized by a Federal agency giving national monopoly (okay, oligopoly) to a few major corporations. Since they tend to be conservative the government subsidy gives us conservative talk radio.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Originally posted by Wulf9
    ....... It is subsidized by a Federal agency giving national monopoly (okay, oligopoly) to a few major corporations. Since they tend to be conservative the government subsidy gives us conservative talk radio.
    That works both ways, PBS operates at a heavy subsidy also. They are comparable and probably a wash as to the effectiveness of the audience reached.

    PBS usually operates thier radio stations out of public universities using state funding for the equipment. Almost no area of the country is left uncovered. That makes our government schizophrenic, ala self induced polarization. Thats great! :|

    PBS radio format is different than corporate am radio format and niether are more or less gratuitous than the other. Both have target constituencies but the conservatives on the am dial have greater name recognition than the PBS stations

    I normally agree with EG on things, but when I even see the HINT of religious connection, I find it frightening enough of a triger to fight tooth and nail.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  15. #15
          Downtown's avatar
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    Originally posted by Dan
    I love how spokespeople for the right attempt to speak for the left. Let me do the same thing, only vice versa ...


    The Right believes in breaking down the barriers between church and state, and establishing Christanity, specifically the Southern Baptist and non-denominational evangelical forms of it, as a de facto state religion.


    The Right believes that the sanctity of human life is far less important than that of corporations; that their survival and well-being is more important than that of the population as a whole. Excepting fetuses, of course.


    The Right believes in unbridled lessez faire capitalism and economic Darwinism, a la late 1800s US and UK, discounting market failure and the trajedy of the commons, where the success of the lucky few justifies the poverty of the masses; that it's fine for people to light Cohibas with $100 bills and obtain Crosseus-like wealth through any means necessary while othes who may work just as hard while struggling to survive.

    Fair and balanced.
    If I weren't already hitched and knocked up, I'd ask you to marry me. My thoughts exactly.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    I normally agree with EG on things, but when I even see the HINT of religious connection, I find it frightening enough of a triger to fight tooth and nail.
    [Bob Dole Mode] EG keeps his politics clearly distant from his lack of supernatural beliefs, or lack there of. Read his stuff if you don't believe him. [/Bob Dole Mode]

    Originally posted by Dan
    Show me some far left candidates running for office on a Decomratic ticket. I don't see Michael Moore or any of the so-called "Hollywood liberal elite" on the allot.
    Dan You have a blind spot my friend - Missing Sharpton and Braun, (Dean, Gephart, & Weasel Clark too) shows you don't perceive the left being spread as far to the hard core left as I (and others) do.

    BTW - Liberals & leftist hollywood wonks have been running for office and campaigning as long as republicans. Please don't make me list all the liberals that have editorial access to the media, or who have tried their hand at talk radio and failed, or who have moved seamlessly between politics and journalism. Springer, Cumos, Stephanopolis....yada yada yada. I can list more if that is what this thread comes down to. When a liberal fails at competitive talk radio they get a guest host slot on NPR.

    Sorry if Mr. Prager pissed you off by daring to sum up liberal postitions as he saw them. I think he was, in his way, trying to be kind and present them fairly. So you can see that there is a disconnect in this country. The pent up hostility on both sides is alarming. Coming back to my point, the future of politics in this country is going to be ugly. This thread uncovers a bit of that.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Growing up in the South… I am not sure the first is over yet.
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  18. #18
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    The alternative perspective

    A question:

    Are any political pundits writing much about what unites the United States as a country these days?

    All these years the people said he’s actin’ like a kid.
    He did not know he could not fly, so he did.
    - - Guy Clark, "The Cape"

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    I'm just sick of my rights as an American citizen being taken away, as well as the constitution being ripped apart. Its both sides of the dial that are screwing this country up.
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  20. #20
    Cyburbian
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    H - I am pretty sure the south lost.

    I think the great chasm is something to be concerned about. I think the Hatred of Bush and the Hatred of Clinton is stupid really.

    I think ultimately it is good that there are clear differences between liberals and conservatives, but we all throw too many petty stones at each other.

    Instead of writing that Bush is stupid (of course ignoring his IVY League degrees) and writing that Clinton was a liar (of course ignoring that somebody elected him to two terms)

    Its juvenile, but mostly its dishonest.

    We should have honest discussion of the real issues that divide us.

    Maybe Dan says we should have universal healthcare; I say ok, but how much does it cost and will the quality meet our standards?

    Maybe BKM says we should have signed on to Kyoto; I say ok, but what are the real impacts on our American business and what about developing nations?

    Maybe I say conservatives don't want a state religion called Christianity, but we think it is rediculous to take 'under god" out of the pledge; Maybe PlannerGirl says not everyone believes in God; Maybe I say the foundation of the Country in 1776 was based on a belief in God and we should not abandon that idea.

    See, at no point did I say Michal Moore is an idiot (he is) and that Bill O'Reilly shoudl get over himself (he should).

    I have to go to work.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    I don't see the situation as bad as the author describes it. The country's pretty much 50/50, when people feel the republicans have too much power and don't like the direction they're headed more liberal leaders will be elected. I'm pretty sure the ideological differences between north and south were much sharper during the Civil War. No matter what the issues are they're not as bad as slavery.

    There are lots of people like me who don't really identify with either side because I don't like having a platform with pre-ordained opinions on every issue. The whole Red State/Blue State thing gets blown out of proportion because people see the states neatly categorized on tv. I also think the author knows if he uses the term "civil war" he'll get attention.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    There is no 2nd Civil War. Most Americans are undecided when it comes to voting and voter turn-outs are miserabley low. The so-called "extreme" divisive politics between liberals and conservatives, and Democrats and Republicans is a product of the American news media because it has to generate a false "point/counter-point" buzz in order to get people to tune-in and watch the advertisements. I don't believe the hype - any news station, whether MSNBC or Fox News, that has to devote air time to the story of the deep-sixing of the Reagans mini-series is not really in the "news" business.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Originally posted by Wanigas?
    [B]There is no 2nd Civil War. Most Americans are undecided when it comes to voting and voter turn-outs are miserabley low.B]
    Sure there is, I'm getting ready for it all ready. I think I'm decided that I'm sick of both sides of the political scene.
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  24. #24
    Cyburbian H's avatar
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    Originally posted by gkmo62u
    H - I am pretty sure the south lost.
    I am fully aware of the outcome. However, traveling around the rural south I have seen and met many people that would like nothing more than to "rise again".

    I am not supporting this thought, just stating a truth of some southern feeling even though it would never really happen.

    (the first post was meant to be funny, but that obviously didn’t work out real well).
    "Those who plan do better than those who do not plan, even though they rarely stick to their plan." - Winston Churchill

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Budgie's avatar
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    Originally posted by Rumpy Tuna
    Sure there is, I'm getting ready for it all ready. I think I'm decided that I'm sick of both sides of the political scene.
    A legitimate third party movement would not be a Civil War, it would be exercising the constitution.

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