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Poll results: Guapo's RED Scaremongering Poll

Voters
27. You may not vote on this poll
  • Better off RED than dead. Let the APA bigshots have their fun.

    0 0%
  • Better off dead than RED. I'm writing a letter to the APA!

    12 44.44%
  • Why all the fuss, Guap? We have always been the advance team for the International Communist Conspiracy (ICC). Didn't you know?

    3 11.11%
  • My grandfather is a reactionary anti-communist just like you. You'll get over it in time Guap.

    5 18.52%
  • Huh, I'm lost.

    7 25.93%
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Thread: APA now the Glorious People's Long-march Planning Association of China!

  1. #1
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    APA now the Glorious People's Long-march Planning Association of China!

    Is this where our dues are going? http://www.planning.org/features/2003/chinawebsite.htm

    Are we still the American Planning Association or have we branched out in to the only communist country of any size left on the face of the earth. I have no problem with outreach and establishing friendly ties to friendly countries, but does anyone here really believe that RED China is friendly? I recall an incident not to long ago where they forced an airplane out of international airspace and held its crew hostage until we apologized for flying in international airspace. This is the same government that has political prisoners in sweatshops and makes your happy meal toys with convict labor. This is a government that kills dissenters. This is a government that is a clear and present danger to my country - and your's also Oz & NZ.

    The costs of developing this "commie planner" web site could not have been cheap. Instead of traveling to China so often, spending my dues on impressing their fellow workers, and trying to translate NIMBY* in Cantonese, might I suggest the APA spend some of that money to travel to a state or city chapter meeting now and then? Iíd like to think the dues my employer pays might be best spent helping me plan right here in a free country.




    * It is really the entire collective's back yard.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Re: APA now the Glorious People's Long-march Planning Association of China!

    Originally posted by el Guapo
    Is this where our dues are going? http://www.planning.org/features/2003/chinawebsite.htm

    This is the same government that has political prisoners in sweatshops and makes your happy meal toys with convict labor.
    Dude, what do you have against happy meal toys?

    Shouldn't they be spending the money on American planners, after all, I thought it was the American Planning Association, not the CPA.

    This here is my favorite part of the article (disclaimer: the following is a joke)

    The new website contains information about the CPA and our overall approach to providing technical and finacial assistance to China, with your dues. In addition, it features examples of how we have developed training programs, conferences, sweatshops, and opportunities for prisoner exchanges and visits to the United States.
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  3. #3
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    This is odd, I thought our CIP dues were funding projects like this.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  4. #4
    Everyday, you folks convince me to pursue a CE degree and I want to thank you for that!

  5. #5
    Cyburbian SGB's avatar
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    Wake up, EG!

    The times, they are a changin'. With the impending land ownership changes, the Chinese will be screaming for APA's assistance as the new land barons begin to cry NIMBY.

    China Acts to Protect Private Property

    And somehow Drudge hasn't linked to this story yet.. Go figure.
    Last edited by SGB; 22 Dec 2003 at 12:41 PM.
    All these years the people said heís actiní like a kid.
    He did not know he could not fly, so he did.
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  6. #6
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Re: Wake up, EG!

    Originally posted by SGB
    The times, they are a changin'.

    China Acts to Protect Private Property

    And somehow Drudge hasn't linked to this story yet.. Go figure.
    I put that in the same classification of Saddam Hussien winning 99.998% of the vote, with Fidel telling his people they are free, with Hillary being a New Yaawka. I've been up to the wall and seen the red menace live. They don't play the game the same way we do. So, sorry the're commies anyway you skin it.

    We have to protect our precious bodily fluids!

  7. #7
    Cyburbian Rumpy Tunanator's avatar
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    Re: Re: Wake up, EG!

    Originally posted by el Guapo
    , with Hillary being a New Yaawka.
    Don't get me started on that good for nothing leech. Sure you'll help the cities upstate......meanwhile you're parading your stupid face around afganistan. Hello, your job is to serve your (wait this isn't her state) state stupid!! Get to work carpetbagger.
    A guy once told me, "Do not have any attachments, do not have anything in your life you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you spot the heat around the corner."


    Neil McCauley (Robert DeNiro): Heat 1995

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    I wondered if this topic would make it to Cyburbia. Can someone please explain how this is helping our membership? I seems to me that we are spending a lot of money developing web sites and "hosting delegations," and then (to pick up an old rant) charging the membership extra for every frickin' service that APA offers. Either tell me this was funded by some grant or cut it off. I don't want my dues used this way. I have other, far more important priorities that I want APA to be addressing.

  9. #9
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Yup.

    I posted this about a month ago in this thread:

    Wait ... oh, El Guapo, have a look at this ....

    APA is coordinating training and a tour of nine U.S. cities for 30 mayors from Jiangsu Province, China, from November 5-25.
    My response remains the same: how much is the APA shelling out for that? How about paying for training for mayors from East St. Louis, Gary and Camden? Here's my best guess, and it's very conservative: (sorry conservatives)

    Airline tickets:
    $2,000 x 30 = $60,000

    Lodging for mayors and coordinators
    $100 x 20 days x 40 = $80,000

    Per diem for mayors and coordinators
    $50 x 20 days x 40 = $40,000

    Domestic travel for mayors and coordinators
    $2000 x 40 = $80,000

    Miscellaneous expenses (attractions, etc.)
    $500 x 40 = $15,000

    TOTAL: US$275,000 Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that means dues from 1,000 members went to fund this junket? Did my dues pay for three nights of lodging at some Hyatt for the mayor of Guangzhou, instead of scholarships or lobbying efforts to block favored legislation of the Outdoor Advertising Association of America? Lovely.

    I'm sure the blue shirts love it, but what about the bulk of the APA membership? At what executive session did they decide "We're going to be China's buddy?" Why China, which is prospering economically, and not India or Russia?
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  10. #10
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Here's a contact regarding APA's China activities.

    Denny Johnson, APA Public Affairs, 202-349-1006
    djohnson@planning.org

    Also from the APA:

    November 4, 2003

    30 Chinese Mayors Start Nine-City U.S. Planning Tour

    Chicago, IL ó A delegation of 30 mayors, deputy mayors, and directors from the Chinese Province of Jiangsu arrive in Chicago Wednesday, November 5, for the start of a nine-city U.S. urban planning study tour and instructional program organized by the American Planning Association (APA).

    "We're honored to be hosting this group of Chinese officials and to provide them with this opportunity to see firsthand the contributions planning has made to several of our major cities," said APA Executive Director Paul Farmer, AICP. "The tours and training have been customized to the particular needs and interests of these mayors and officials, whose cities are among China's fastest-growing urban centers."

    While in the U.S., the Chinese mayors will meet with city officials and planning directors. The delegation will examine various planning issues including transportation and transit systems, capital cities, sprawl, revitalization, ports and waterfronts, industrial areas, farmland conservation, tourism, financial districts, and historic preservation.

    To begin the tour, Chinese officials will tour Chicago's downtown Loop and Grant Park, features of Daniel Burnham's famous plan. On Saturday morning, members of the delegation will view the city's waterfront and Chicago River by boat.

    After Chicago, the group will visit Boston; New York City; Philadelphia; Washington, D.C.; Annapolis, Maryland; New Orleans; San Diego; and Los Angeles. Cities on the tour were selected because of similarities to the home cities of the visiting Chinese. Before returning to China on November 25, members of the delegation will attend a special banquet. Providing the keynote address at the November 24 dinner will be APA President Mary Kay Peck, AICP. This is the first of several study tours being organized and hosted by APA during the next 18 months for 100 other mayors from Jiangsu.

    [snip]
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    Maybe its our government's attempt at "Americanizing" China.



    If international relations are what the APA is after why can't we instead import experts from other countries who have successfully dealt with planning in free-market economies?

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Re: Re: Wake up, EG!

    Originally posted by el Guapo
    .....We have to protect our precious bodily fluids!

    THATS JUST SO WRONG

    I keep trying to tell people not to worry about the REDS, they are getting the point, it will take a lot of money to run us down to ground. In the process they will become more like us than we (or they) ever want them too

    ...In the meantime......

    Satalite mounted nukes at the top of the gravity well, and constant beeming of 90210 Episodes (or whatever is popular on the craptube) is likely to prevent any serious breech of our world wide attack on everyone else's culture!

    You hear that MUSLIM WORLD? We don't need to kick your ass in person, we will get your women to think they are FAT! and your kids will hate you! Your DOOM is IMMENENT!

    As for RED CHINA, its to late for them, as they join the information age, and become one with the world markets, they have opened the floodgates of change. Soon, red will be refered to only as a color of ink on thier money!
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  13. #13
    Cyburbian donk's avatar
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    From what I'm lead to believe about the APA and how things have worked out here (CIP), I am sure the APA is gouging the Chinese gov't for the services and hosting that they are providing.

    To make EG and others even happier, I am also pretty sure the federal gov't and your tax dollars are paying for portions of this too. Most favoured trading status does not come cheap.
    Too lazy to beat myself up for being to lazy to beat myself up for being too lazy to... well you get the point....

  14. #14
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Whoops.

    Dan,
    You know how you have always thought it would be nice for the APA to recognize Cyburbia and maybe steer some traffic here, or at the very least to acknowledge Cyburbiaís existence? This thread is the reason it will never happen; open dissent by the unwashed with no way to filter or edit by the APA Priesthood. That is the thing I suppose is feared the most.

    Imagine if you were a large dues-bloated organization that had a history of being unaccountable to your base membership and you made a stupid mistake. Why those $300-year-foot soldiers might be so unsophisticated as to point that out to you.

    The APA is run like an organization that has very little sense that is should remain focused on its member' needs. As a service delivery vehicle, I see it on par with the service one expects from the Chinese Ministry of Property Rights or the pre-break up Southwestern Bell.

    It is instead, focused on the needs and wants of the clique that is in power. Maybe that is the reason for their kinship with Red China?


  15. #15
    I have always wondered where the APA gets direction for these projects that do not help their core membership. I also think that a lot of their domestic projects aren't that great either.

    Maybe if they would concentrate on the issues that their membership wants, they wouldn't have to charge so much money for books, journals, and other research.

    oh, and off topic - Why is it that GW Bush is siding with the Chinese government and is warning Taiwan to not to hold a referendum on the missiles that China has aimed at Taiwan. The fear is that this could lead to a vote for Taiwaneese independence. So I guess its ok to back democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan, but when it comes to Taiwan, the Bush policy is ďtoo bad for you.Ē
    "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

    - Homer Simpson

  16. #16
    Cyburbian GeogPlanner's avatar
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    i think this year i will divert my APA dues to cyburbia. can i get a neat wall certificate to replace my APA one?
    Information necessitating a change of design will be conveyed to the designer after and only after the design is complete. (Often called the 'Now They Tell Us' Law) - Fyfe's First Law of Revision

    We don't believe in planners and deciders making the decisions on behalf of Americans. -- George W. Bush , Scranton, PA -- 09/06/2000

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Rem's avatar
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    Re: APA now the Glorious People's Long-march Planning Association of China!

    I think the focus of APA member's attention should be whether they are getting value for money from their dues. If you are dissatisfied with basic services, it is appropriate to complain about more extravagent excursions into things like international relations.

    I don't agree with the argument that relationships should not be formed with communist countries though.

    Originally posted by el Guapo
    ....This is a government that is a clear and present danger to my country - and your's also Oz & NZ.
    I appreciate 'clear and present danger' has a particular meaning in the US (though I do not know what that definition is) but I doubt giving China a cold shoulder is the right approach to such danger. In Australia's case we have virtually no capacity to defend ourselves from a populous aggressor. Indonesia - 234 million and China - 1.2 billion have been the two most discussed candidates over the years. Australia has just topped 20 million in the last two weeks. We walk a tightrope between trying to maintain friendly relations and pulling their noses on things like human rights abuses from time to time. We rely on US defence assistance to provide a deterrent, though I doubt the US could justify maintaining a defence of Australia if things got completely out of hand. Our reliance on the US is repaid by providing a home for defence installations (such as Pine Gap) and supporting the US in various conflicts. We must maintain a positive relationship with China for our security.

    China, by the way, is the most likely source of a mediated solution with North Korea and should be encouraged to continue to work on a solution. Nth Korea is very much a danger to Australia - we recently intercepted a ship carrying long range warheads, built in Nth Korea and being shipped to Africa, apparently to supplement their ailing economy.

    It would be disrespectful of me to not accept your perspective on communism, el Guapo, given your personal experience but I do not think Australia's safety is increased by treating China like a pariah.

    In respect of planning ties with China, I know a lot of Australian consulting firms are obtaining huge amounts of work all over south east asia, including China. They are doing this without a sponsored campaign by the API (Australian Planning Institute) who would not have the resources to pursue a campaign in any case. It is exacerbating our planner shortage BTW.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Re: Re: APA now the Glorious People's Long-march Planning Association of China!

    Originally posted by Rem
    We rely on US defence assistance to provide a deterrent, though I doubt the US could justify maintaining a defence of Australia if things got completely out of hand.
    I can't think of another place, except maybe Canada and the UK where the US wouldn't put it all on the line in their defense. I doubt very much the exchange between our two counties is as mechanical as you illustrate. REM, you made it sound like we will leave a $100 bill on your nightstand when we are through with our business in the south Pacific.

  19. #19

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    Satalite mounted nukes at the top of the gravity well, and constant beeming of 90210 Episodes (or whatever is popular on the craptube) is likely to prevent any serious breech of our world wide attack on everyone else's culture!
    For an interesting perspecitve on how American culture dominates the world (warning-he is anti-Bush, and very anti-war): http://www.thismodernworld.com/bob.html

  20. #20
    Cyburbian Rem's avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: APA now the Glorious People's Long-march Planning Association of China!

    Originally posted by el Guapo
    ...REM, you made it sound like we will leave a $100 bill on your nightstand when we are through with our business in the south Pacific.
    Sorry not my intention. I expect if Australia was invaded, the US would need to commit significantly to its own safety. While that may include pitched battles on, over and around Australia, your main objective would surely need to be defence of the US. You are probably right that the US would put it on the line for us, but the world order would be so upside down (if Australia was invaded by a massive force), I can't believe the US wouldn't have big problems elsewhere.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian tsc's avatar
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    torch me... but I really don't have a problem with this issue. In fact, I support it. I think that education and understanding of all cultures is important. Cultural exchanges are a good thing... we can't live in a bubble and need a better understanding of other countries.

    It isn't that I disagree that our dues are pretty darn high... I pay for AICP/APA.
    "Yeehaw!" is not a foreign policy

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  22. #22
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Originally posted by tsc
    torch me... but I really don't have a problem with this issue. In fact, I support it. I think that education and understanding of all cultures is important. Cultural exchanges are a good thing... we can't live in a bubble and need a better understanding of other countries.

    It isn't that I disagree that our dues are pretty darn high... I pay for AICP/APA.

    TSC
    No Flames, I promise. Just good old-fashioned rants and commie bashing.

    I agree cultural exchanges are great. I personally exchange a little culture every night when I go home. I love learning about different cultures. Heck, I can't get enough of that endless variety of people, places and things - Really. I guess, that is why I am a geographer first. But, unlike most of my comrades in the press and academia, I don't disparage my own culture or have a sense of guilt for being that which I am, and having the life I have. I feel no sense of inferiority or loss for not having a summer solstice tribal dance or letters in my alphabet with squiggles. I can live with what Iíve been given through the luck of the draw and still appreciate that others are different, and different isnít bad, in itself. But I can also wield the unPC sword of judgment when I have to and say ďthis is a bad thing.Ē My liberal brethren have lost the ability to wield that sword unless it about W or Halliburton. Liberalís buy Volkswagens like they are going out of style, but theyíd have you think that Halliburton made Zylklon-B, they way they hate it so.

    As a nation, I wager that we do a pretty good job of trying to understand other cultures. Iíll even bet you we understand the Chinese much better than they understand us. Why? Because we are a free people that travel for academic, personal, cultural, recreational and business reasons.

    We have much higher percentage of our people that can afford to travel. We have had missionaries, soldiers, diplomats, school choirs, crop judging teams, businessmen, and so many others go places and absorb the heck out of the culture. Despite what the French, the UN, and insidious liberal media would like you to think, we are not Ugly American travelers anymore than the Russians, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Germans or anyone else. Iíve seen excellent examples of almost every nationality abroad, and Iíve seen the A-holes in there also.

    Some foreign people have a poor image of the stereotypical American Traveler because we have a national sense of self-confidence that the liberals have not yet totally destroyed. Much of the world would be happy if we arrived in their country apologizing for our sins. Some liberal Americans do, most of us donít.

    We are also an open society. That means we can exchange information about other cultures and our people can assimilate and adopt foreign ideas into our culture much more quickly than a centrally-planned government with a national program of idea and media censorship, and with a brutally repressive justice system ever could.

    We need to do all kinds of cultural exchanges as private citizens, churches, clubs, schools, governments, and NGO's. However, the American Planning Association has so very much work left undone here in the US. It is not APAís job to give aid and comfort to a government that suppresses freedom. Which is exactly what APA is doing. As a member of the APA it is my opinion that APA should seriously beef-up at the chapter level before they start forming chapters with our RED comrades in the international struggle of the worker's against the evil developing ones. Iíll also echo Danís point, why not India, or someplace in Africa, or an Arab country. Why did we pick a country that is a threat?

    Originally posted by REM
    China, by the way, is the most likely source of a mediated solution with North Korea and should be encouraged to continue to work on a solution.
    REM
    Thatís a bit like asking Capone for help with Dillinger, isnít it?

    Merry Christmas to all, even the infidels.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Originally posted by el Guapo
    bunch of right winged stuff...
    You know why I appreciate you on this board.. because to me you seem to be the only conservative that THINKS.

    Thanks for the article and the intelligent conversation.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Hmmm... I suppose I'll prove myself a moderate by agreeing a little with both sides. China is a dictatorship with a horrible record on civil rights. The US as a nation, and the APA as an organization, should be careful about dealing with a country whose government has inherently different views than our own. The Chinese (and most Communist) practice of "planning" has more often than not failed to respect any form of property rights, community interests, historic preservation, religious freedom, or other values that we hold as planning professionals in this country. The Three Rivers Gorge is a prime example. Do we really want to associate ourselves, as a profession, with this type of "planning?" Are we really going to change their approach, or are we going to do damage to how own constituency percieves us?

    I do see the value in exchanges that expose different cultures to each other. I have taken part (and my organization has financially helped to support) trade missions between companies in my area and companies in China. I do see an opportunity to further the mission of my organization and to serve my primary clientele as a result. I wonder how well I am served by APA spending my dues on this venture. Is there something I am supposed to be getting from the web site or tours? I don't recall any of the membership being asked to participate.

    The small article in the e-mail did not provide enough information for me to fully understand the project, but did give me enough to be concerned.

    1) I want to know that member dues did not support this activity. When I am struggling to cut a slim budget and not have to lay people off, I need to ask if the expense for APA is worth it. I will reiterate the comments I have made before: I get far more for my basic dues from every other organization I belong to, and I resent having to pay extra for every service that comes along from APA. The organization needs to take a serious look at itself and what it does, and figure out how to meet my expectations. In my opinion, spending APA funds to reach out to China comes second to reaching out to membership.

    2) We need to be very cautious about our interactions with countries like China. Their record record on human rights and the threat they pose to other countries is only half of the issue. We need to recognize that the "Commie Planner" image is real to many of the citizens our organizations serve. We do not need to reinforce this impression by building close ties to "Commie Planners" whose practices are, in reality, very far from our own.

    Frankly, I think APA needs to provide more information and an accounting to its membership.

  25. #25
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Please, please, please tell me there will be letters written to Planning magazine regarding this issue. I know that APA National officials and employees don't visit Cyburbia, much less acknowledge its existence, so they'll never see the comments here. We're just preaching to the choir right now.

    Here's an APA statement of activities, for what it's worth. I'd like to see a line-item budget.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

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