Who actually goes to an Ivy League school for a planning degree?

Don't know but definitely not in my neck of the woods.

Not planning on working for a city after graduation and not choosing a school based on the IRR.

I am choosing between Berkeley, Penn, Columbia, and MIT. Penn and Columbia qualify as Ivy, but you may as well throw in MIT.

Let's take a look at the difference b/w, say, MIT and a public school paying in state tuition. The cost difference between MIT and the University of Oklahoma (where I did my undergrad in business) is approx. $35k per year or $70k total, plus you can add another $10k over two years in increased living expenses. So we are talking about $80k.

I would imagine an MIT degree is worth something more per year in salary than one from OU. But even if we said I would be paid the same amount I would rather go to MIT. Here is why, I did not choose to be a planner for the money and I think it would be shortsighted to choose a school based on the money. There are thousands of other criteria by which to judge a school other than the cost. If I can make it work without going broke, why wouldn't I choose the school that I want to go to.

I very much doubt I will look back when I am sixty and wish I had that $80k with some interest so I could take a vacation. The opportunity to attend the great school of your choice and see where it takes you is one that should not be passed up.

This topic has come up a lot on this forum. I think that it is wrong to assume that an ivy league or private school education will necessarily cost more. Many private schools have more funding to give out than public schools. For example, I am deciding between two public schools and one private school. The cost for all three will be the same, because I was awarded a partial scholarship from the public school.

Secondly, local governments might employ "most planners" but this is only one of the many career choices someone with a degree in planning can make. Some people might choose to continue in academia, some might work for local, state or government bodies, some might work for private consultants, some might work for private firms and some might go into politics, some might work internationally and some might work for non-profits.

It is true that the starting salary of most planners will not be outstanding; it will not comparable to graduating from law or medical school. In my opinion, this doesn't mean you shouldn't get the best education you can afford. Some on this forum will disagree with me, but there is a difference in the level of education at different schools. My first year as an undergraduate was spent at a not so competetive state school, I then transfered to a more competitive private school. The level of education at the second school was leaps and bounds above the first school. This is just my experience.

If what you want to do is advance your career just enough to make a slightly higher salary, than the planning school you go to probably doesn't matter that much, but if you want to learn as much as you can and become a leader in the field, than you should carefully consider which school you go to.

Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant. This topic has come up a lot on this forum and the sometimes simplistic arguments against ivy league or other prestigous institutions sometimes gets under my skin. Bottom line, know what you want to do (as best you can) and pick a school that can best help you meet your goals.

Lots of these people end up working in consulting or maybe the federal government where you can make $60-$70k a couple years out of school.

As someone who went to an ivy for undergrad and already has over $80k in loans, let me say it all depends on your situation. Yes, an ivy may get your foot in the door for that first job more easily, but probably won't matter much once you have the experience a first job brings you. However, less expensive schools with great reps in planning like UNC and Rutgers will do the same for you, especially in the area where you went to school.

If you come from money, have a spouse with money, or if you are good on a budget and aren't going to worry about paying back the $500-$750 per month (yes that's what it will be on the cheapest plan after 3-5 years) then just pick the school that you feel the strongest connection with, but for many, like me, that monthly payment can end up feeling like a real burden in the end, so really weigh your choices.

After saying this, I'm still trying to make the decision between Columbia, Penn and Rutgers.

i'm of the belief that the term ivy league really only applies to the school's undergraduate education. when it comes to graduate school, it really seems to be much more about the department than the name of the school itself. *shrug* then again, i never really bought into that whole thing in the first place. i went to a liberal arts college for undergrad and refused to touch the ivy league with a 10 foot ivy pole.

The cost of an education is not just the cost of earning a degree, it is the amount of money lost by not working full time and earning the compound interest of financially wise investments. An initial investment of 80k would be worth many times over when you retire.

Bottom line, good professors, good courses, and good experience can be found in all schools. Personally, I think you can even find that in public schools, it just requires a lot more observation and a lot more questions to ask to find that right program. Some would argue school is what you make of it. I partially agree. I also think it is partly the faculty's responsibility to help you develop your professional (non-academia) goals.

I think one of the most important factors when choosing a school is the students you will be studying with. What makes a good classmate depends on one's perspective. One person might want a mix of working and non-working students, another person might want incredibly smart and driven classmates, another might want only mature classmates who are working in the field, and yet another might want classmates from many parts of the country or the world to share their perspective.

Schools attract different kinds of students. Think hard about who you want to study with, especially if since planning school often requires a lot of group work.

It is probably true that good professors can be found in any school, but some schools have more than others. I think it is really hard to know how much you are going to like the professors until you have been at the school at least a semester, but I wouldn't want to be at a school where I had to search really hard to find good professors.

I agree and I did the same thing. I think you're missing my point, which is finding the way to do it without going broke. Planning is not the highest-paying career, but the elite schools definitely are high-cost. This is what I mean by it not being cost effective.

I think that EVERYONE would pick an elite school over another, regardless of their major/career. You cannot put a price on a great education, but you also have to be able to feed yourself after you graduate.

Just adding to the mix: the outstanding graduate programs in planning (Harvard and MIT aside) are almost invariably west of the Mississippi: UW-Madison, UMich, UIC, Berkeley, etc.

I can't help but take the potshot..

Madison, Michigan, and Chicago are east of the Mississippi.
Most planning schools are somewhat clustered by the Great Lakes Region(s), east to New England and west to the Old Northwest (Minneapolis).

I am a dismal, dismal failure. :-c

I think zoelisabeth made some good points. When I was looking at schools, I ended up going with a public one because I got some money there- but it more came down to the fit I felt with the program, the other students, and the new city I'd be living in for two years. I think those should be big factors in deciding where to go to grad school.

I actually chose to go to the grad school where I got my undergrad degree, simply because the program was old enough that it had a reputation, and small enough that I knew everyone in a week or so. Additionally, they've historically churned out planning directors rather than behind-a-monitor techies, and I felt that focus on comprehensive planning was important.

i think that education is about a lot more than a cost-benefit analysis of how that education will improve your earning in life or "competitiveness." if someone has the opportunity to attend ivy league, s/he will have a chance to work with great minds in an environment where creativity and moving the field forward is emphasized over "training." this lends itself well to a future in academia, but I think this foundation is excellent no matter what one chooses to do.

public schools have equally great minds and often professors are educated at ivy-leagues. if a student has the initiative to work closely with professors, s/he can give him/herself the same or better education as would be had at an ivy league. while the one-year-of-experience-is-worth-ten-years-of-education crowd may see professors as having their heads in the clouds, students interested in digging deeper into planning ideas will find that the professors give them a lot of attention. however, it takes a lot more initiative and independent study to come out with what is standard at the best schools, and the standard planning classes may seem overly pragmatic.

that's my 2 cents. different strokes for different folks. i will say that the one "wrong" reason for choosing an ivy league school is simply for ye' ol' ego.

An Ivy degree is only benificial if your aspirations are to do GREAT things. If you want to be a Planner I and move through the ranks... why go to MIT? I am a Planning Assistant that did not know what planning was 4 years ago. I am making more than and MIT Graduate with a Masters in Planning that holds the same position. I will be done with my masters in may 2008 in planning from Morgan State University. She started as a Planning Assistant, I started as an Intern. In my office there are several planners that went to PENN and have been here a while. Just as they started as Planner I i will soon transition and acend the ladder just the same. When you work for the Local GVT the job is the same no matter where you went to school.

I aspire to be the director or division cheif as opposed to just a planner. That has nothing to do with the school i went to... more the direction i want to go.

I agree do a cost benifit analysis and see if going to a smaller school will be better.

I agree that a degree is more than a financial return. Having said that, I had to choose between Ivy with no financial aid vs. solid state school with a free ride plus a stipend. Add onto that my interest in seeing a different part of the country and it was off to the state school I went.

Do I regret it? No. There are some career paths that it might limit but right now those aren't the paths I am pursing. And having financial flexibility made a huge difference early in my career when I took salary cuts at a few key junctions in order to increase my job satisfaction.

Its hard to know what's inside your head in terms of why you might decide on one school over another. If your path is clear in your head then go that way. I can see why some might pick an Ivy given a different set of circumstances than mine.

Just to clarify something here: Massachusetts Institute of Technology is not an Ivy League school.

True. And technically, it costs *more*

But then, the Ivies gave me money, and the state universities didn't, and it all comes to the same thing.

Bloustein of Rutgers, which is a state school, is a pretty good program, and Rutgers students are able to access Princeton's architecture library (which has some material relevant to planning) as well as Rutgers' own libraries. (In fact, agreements to allow students into one another's libraries are rather common among universities neighboring one another, it seems.)

Why does everyone feel you can't get private scholarships to the Ivies? I went to an Ivy with both school-based and private-based funding. Came out of both my undergrad and grad experience with $40,000 total debt. The connections, resources, and doors that the Ivy opened (not to mention access to interdisciplinary resources) was well worth it.

I found that the beauty of attending such a program was the option to look beyond the public sector if you so desired. And, if I can mention again, the resources and speakers, and guest professors were amazing.

But, to each his or her own.

I think it's really a matter of cost-benefit analysis here. The classes I'm taking at Penn (some of which are shared between my dept and the design school) are unbelievably excellent - far and away better than anything I'd experienced before. That said, I'm sure you could get at least a good, and probably comparable, type of education at Berkeley or Michigan for a much lower price.

Still, I do know that the starting salary for Penn's program is on average something like 60k whereas at Michigan it's more like 40k. Both are excellent schools but people really trip over each other to snag an ivy leaguer. Its not always about the education alone - many municipal governments and private firms want to prove how great their organization is by bringing in a graduate from an elite university - the more elite the better. Your hiring opportunities after being at Berkeley or UVA or Michigan will still be good, but prob not at the same level as Harvard, Penn, MIT, or Cornell.

60K is a bit high for Penn. In my day (MCP class of '05) the median starting salary was in the mid to high 40s. On the bright side we had a higher median than the architects.

Remember that the salaries are based on a self-reported survey of alumni, so not every one participates. And keep in mind that the few graduates to lateral into private development or consulting will have higher salaries than the average, and someone heading for design or public planning won't make as much (but often better benefits and vacation policies).

I've been out in the real world for two years now. I make a very good salary at a fiscal analysis consulting firm and my co-workers got their degrees from Portland State and UNC and Ohio State and Cornell. Fact is, where you got your degree matters very little in the real world, and experience trumps all. The Penn name opens a few doors on the East Coast and in certain industries, but most hiring planners will consider you on an equal footing with graduates from public and "lesser" planning schools, especially if you're gunning for a public sector planning job. Firms looking for urban designers will only care about your portfolio, and having Jonathan Barnett as a reference only helps so much if there's another applicant from Portland State with a more impressive portfolio.

I went to a PA state school, full of adjunct professors who got pretty much everyone I graduated with jobs, and now 10 years later, i am living quite comfortably thanks to them.

sometimes it pays to take a step back, and take "academia" for what it is....a bunch of dudes who never left school and got real jobs.

Point well taken, Pennplanner.

I'm actually doing public policy work here but I'm hoping to make a jump into planning after my program is up. Would you say it's worth going to PennDesign or would I be equally well served at a less expensive school?

I do actually go to an Ivy League school for planning.

I have not seen any schools in the 'south' or 'southwest' really mentioned, where the high growth rates have employed planners no matter where their degree is from. Partially because there aren't any 'iveys' in those areas! If the area/state you are looking to work in has a high enough demand for planners than it won't matter where you got your degree from.

I do not go to an 'ivey' but a well established state program and I find that most of our grads have no problem finding jobs and most make decent money coming out, even those who go to the public sector. Down here we don't care if you are from an ivey or not, we just want planners who have good experience and can handle growth management.

Ive struggled with this also because of non-ivy like schools not offering a speciality in aviation transportation planning

The prices you pay in the US for an education are obscene. My total Honors degree in Urban Planning will be US$15000 at most. Not to mention I get to walk inot the same US$45K job as it seems the rest of you are relying on. I mean no offence, I just find it quite remarkable considering you also pay for health care.

For the record I'm an Australian, and all forms of health care, whether it be visiting a doctor for a cold, or going to the hospital to have neuro surgery are free, especially for students, who also recieve all prescribed medicines for US$4.25.

Hey, I am one of those who is considering going to an Ivey and cost is most certainly an issue. So I was wondering if anyone received scholarships to get their MCP and if so, which ones?

Forgot to also ask what people thought about joint degree programs. I know that Penn offers joint MBA and MCP. Does anyone have their MBA and MCP and have they found it beneficial?

Can't speak to the Ivy League status...but I DO know of a Planner who runs a not for profit housing organization, is making easily six figures, AICP, and has his masters from MIT. Prolly one of the more brilliant people I have met in my life.

My advice would be to get a joint degree whenever possible. It will increase your foundation of knowledge and make you much more marketable.

Additionally, I suggest attending a school in an urban evironment. The living classroom perspective cannot be over-emphasized. For example, the UW-Madison grad program is focused on theory whereas the UW-Milwaukee program is focused on practice.

As a student you need a program that exposes you projects and opportunities...learn by doing. I think many programs will provide you with a similar academic foundation, but only few programs will provide you direct opportunities to cultivate skills in the "real" world.

I went to Harvard (with a big scholarship). After graduation, a lot of us went to work for local governments - many of us still do.

After a couple of years, I went back for a doctorate, the Harvard name still helps.

I earned both my undergraduate and graduate degrees in planning at a private university ($$$). I'll never forget what one of my professors said during our exit interview: "We have prepared you not for your first job, but for your last."

The more intimate environment that a private school affords you, in combination with training in visioning and leadership, go a long way toward making your "planner's dreams" come true. Although an ivy league school's reputation may open more doors for you, it is the level of training you can receive that keeps on opening doors.

Just a thought...

I didn't know they moved the Mississippi so far East ;-)

In all seriousness though, I agree with what others have said: Ivy League schools really don't have to be more expensive. And the people who go there probably are looking for a particular experience and education rather than just a vocational degree to get them more money, so the cost-benefit analysis might be less relevant.

I graduated from Urban Planning some 16 years ago and I can whole heartedly say that you should look beyond the 40K town planner perspective. From my graduating class my friends have gone off in all directions and have landed in some amazing careers - Environmental Lawyers, Developers, Land Remediation Experts, Entrepreneurs - and yes some Planners.

As for going to an Ivy League school for your Planning Degree I would say that yes it is worthwhile. Open your eyes and your mind to all that this field has to offer and find your own way. I am not a Urban Planner by trade but the lessons learned have helped me throughout my career.

Good luck to those that choose this noble path.

Cheers - Eric - PickupPal.com

I have a couple friends that got their Planning degrees from Cornell and Berkeley...those are the most 'Ivy League' schools I've heard of for Planning. I got mine from SUNY Albany.