• Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no echo chambers. Create your FREE Cyburbia ID, and join us today! You can also register through your Reddit, Facebook, Google, Twitter, or Microsoft account.

A symposium on the "f" word

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
17,837
Points
59
This thread is for civilized yet spirited debate of the use of the term "fag" on Cyburbia's casual discussion areas.
 

green lizard

Member
Messages
133
Points
6
It means 'cigarette' to the stuffy english.

As in, "How about a fag on the balcony James?"

To which an American overhearing this might reply,
"Thats not very PC you Limiy!"
 

prudence

Cyburbian
Messages
688
Points
20
Dan said:
This thread is for civilized yet spirited debate of the use of the term "fag" on Cyburbia's casual discussion areas.
Liberal left is denying me free speech. Well, let me revise that...I can say whatever I want, but I will be labeled a close-minded bigot as I may have offended someone or hurt their feelings.

It's OK for:

Gays to refer to themselves as "fag" or "homo" or "queer" or whatever;

Black people call each other n***** or whatever;

but if I, a conservative white male, do it, than I'm a racist or a bigot or whatever.

I am sick of all the PC bullsh*t. I am also in the minority. I come from 100% German ancestry. I am male. My ancestors help found two cities in the Milwaukee area...meaning my family settled here 160+ years ago (very few can say that). Oh, and I am a conservative Repulican.

Who do I get to cry to???
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,464
Points
29
You can, of course, cry on all of our shoulders here at Cyburbia, Prudence. Of course, some of us are white males, too, so that may not work for you. :)
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
It doesn't offend me, but I could see how it is an offensive term to people. I use the terms "gay" and "fag" in my everyday discussions with my friends, but never in the context of being derogatory to homosexuals. It is always along the lines of "Man, that shirt you are wearing is so gay!" or "Quit acting like a fag"

I would never use it in everyday conversation with people other than my close friends because I know it would be offensive to others even if we are using it in good fun.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
It doesnt offend me, and I use the term jokingly perhaps more often than I should. BTW Repo Man - the two other planners in my office that you know both came int work this morning in lavendar dress shirts and ties. ROTFLMAO!
 

green lizard

Member
Messages
133
Points
6
fag (fag)
1. to drop, decline or hang loosely.
2.to work and become very tired
3. a boy in an English public school who acts
as a sevant for another boy in a higher form, or class.

(from Websters New World Dictionary - 1962)

Which definition do you think we have morphed the
modern day use of the word from?
 

prudence

Cyburbian
Messages
688
Points
20
green lizard said:
Which definition do you think we have morphed the
modern day use of the word from?
Number 1 ?!?

It's just a word...it all comes down to context and inflection.
 

green lizard

Member
Messages
133
Points
6
prudence said:
Number 1 ?!?

It's just a word...it all comes down to context and inflection.
So... it is not the word but intent. I agree.

Are you queer? or are you a queer?

(i personaly am not a fag, queer or Klingon)
 

prudence

Cyburbian
Messages
688
Points
20
It's like the word "smurfy"...it has no true meaning, but all the Smurfs understood.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
It never hurts to go to the source. I have a couple of friends, a former co-worker and roommate, who are of the faggish persuasion. (Picture Will and Jack - that really does describe these two.) We had this conversation not long ago, and they took a position much like Prudence's. It all comes down to context. Still, I find that I hardly ever use that term, or others like it.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Michael Stumpf said:
...We had this conversation not long ago, and they took a position much like Prudence's. It all comes down to context...
Ah, like the difference between:

1) Prudence is a fag.

2) Prudence is wearing faggy lavendar shirt.
 

Jessie-J

Cyburbian
Messages
386
Points
12
ummmm, it's better than some of the other terms I've heard used.

I agree that there is a place and a time to be conservative and use the more PC, but sometimes the whole PC things just gets old.
 

SW MI Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,195
Points
26
I agree that it's the intent that matters, but I personally don't use the word. Same reason I don't say retard, queer, gay, etc. I don't like to hurt people or offend people - unless they deserve it of course ;)
 

Tom R

Cyburbian
Messages
2,274
Points
25
f**

green lizard said:
fag (fag)
1. to drop, decline or hang loosely.
2.to work and become very tired
3. a boy in an English public school who acts
as a sevant for another boy in a higher form, or class.

(from Websters New World Dictionary - 1962)

Which definition do you think we have morphed the
modern day use of the word from?
I thought it was short for "faggot."
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Fag = Someone who shaves his legs and parades around in skin tight lycra.


....anyone remember the episode of Seinfeld when the dentist converted to Jewish?
 

Tom R

Cyburbian
Messages
2,274
Points
25
f**

From etymology on line:

fag - sense of "drudgery" is 16c., apparently an alteration of flag in its sense of "droop." This in turn may be related to the obsolete fag-end (1613) "extreme end, loose piece," the source of British slang fag "cigarette" (1888).
faggot - 1279, from O.Fr. fagot "bundle of sticks," from It. faggotto, dim. of V.L. *facus, from L. fascis "bundle of wood" (see fasces). Used from 1591 through 19c. as a contemptuous term for "woman" (cf. baggage), especially an old and unpleasant one, which probably is the source of Amer.Eng. derogatory term for "male homosexual" (1914; shortened form fag is from 1921). It may also be reinforced by Yiddish faygele "homosexual," lit. "little bird;" and by Brit. university slang fag "boy servant of an upperclassman" (with suggestions of "catamite"), from fag (v.).
 

green lizard

Member
Messages
133
Points
6
Re: f**

Tom R said:
I thought it was short for "faggot."
Actually Faggot is listed a 'a bundel of sticks or twigs
used as fuel'. or to 'a bundel of iron peices to be worked
into flat stock'.
 

green lizard

Member
Messages
133
Points
6
Re: f**

Tom R said:
From etymology on line:

The reson I used the 1962 version of
Websters is the 'derogatory term for....'
does not show up.

The source you qoute shows the year for
'derogatory term for...' as much older than 1962...

Wonder where they got it?
 

Queen B

Cyburbian
Messages
3,179
Points
25
In Portugese "deer" means male homosexual.

I found this out when I told my Brazilian foriegn exchange daughter that she was eating "deer" meat in her chili.

I got out the dictionary and showed her in english and she showed me in portugese.

She was pretty upset, certainly we would not put male homosexuals in her chili!!!!

Put's a whole new spin on the intent of all those "deer" hunters out there!
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
Queen B said:
Put's a whole new spin on the intent of all those "deer" hunters out there!
That explains why hunting trips are usually a male-only affair. :)
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
I use the word queer all the time and typically not to describe a person's sexuality. It is usually used to describe a situtation that is odd or different from the norm.

Now if I said, "queer as a three dollar bill", that is refering to a person.

As for using the "F" word, I don't find it offensive and it has been used quite humoursly here. Especially in Dowtown's current state "sorry pregos". Maybe its like "where's the beef", "wassup" and other catch phrases, its funny at first, then it is just plain annoying as the meaning and context are lost...
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,149
Points
27
I think it would be appropriate to abstain from the sarcastic and ill-intentioned usage of fag here on Cyburbia. If a lurker was interested in participating in one of our discussions, but was put-off by the snarky usage of the word, and left for good, then I would think that isn't beneficial to Cyburbia. I appreciate diversity and would like to see that spirit nurtured here.
 

prudence

Cyburbian
Messages
688
Points
20
donk said:
I use the word queer all the time and typically not to describe a person's sexuality. It is usually used to describe a situtation that is odd or different from the norm.

Did anybody play either if these football games with buddies growng up?

- "Smear the queer"
-N***** Pile"

The object of both games was to tackle the person who had the ball. That didn't make me a racist bigot when I was eight, did it?? I didn't know anybody who was gay or black...was I avoiding them because I felt there were not a good as I was...was I trying to show my superiority by using slurs referencing them in my childhood games? Was my lucky white hood something more?? Hmmm...
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
Does anyone have any school aged children? What do they call these activties now? I think the term "N*** pile" is terrible and kids should not use that term, but am I evil for thinking that Smear the Queer is still ok? Are these games even allowed anymore? Or are they simply too brutal for the kids of today? Have they been replaced with the "discuss your feelings" circle and "hug the guy with the ball?"

I dont' want to get off topic here, but I fear that kids of today are going to grow up to be wimps. (Sorry wimps)
 

prudence

Cyburbian
Messages
688
Points
20
Repo Man said:
Are these games even allowed anymore? Or are they simply too brutal for the kids of today? Have they been replaced with the "discuss your feelings" circle and "hug the guy with the ball?"

I dont' want to get off topic here, but I fear that kids of today are going to grow up to be wimps. (Sorry wimps)

Brilliant. I couldn't agree more.

Everybody on the planet doesn't need to get along. And everybody does need to be tolerant of one another. Everybody needs to get their arse kicked at least once, and everybody should kick someone's arse once in their lifetime.

That way you have a full understanding what each both are like and can respect both sides. You aren't always going to be on the bottom and you are rarely going to be on the top, it's what you do when you are there that matters.
 

Greenescapist

Cyburbian
Messages
1,169
Points
24
Wow, I created quite a furor here! I think this is a great discussion and no one should take anything I say personally and I will do the same likewise.

I think this site is terrific. I'm not even a planner. I have been working in publishing for the last 3 years and am undergoing a career shift to planning, beginning this Fall at the University of Wisconsin. When I was doing research on this field, I stumbled upon Cyburbia. I'm so glad I did. I have learned so much from reading the well-written and reasoned messages, asking everyone questions and I even had the opportunity to meet one of the members to talk to him about what it means to be a planner.

I have also come to love the camaraderie between the members here - the jokes, the stories and picture sharing. I know that all of you are decent, educated people. However, when you're a stranger coming into here and you breeze through, words like "fag" can be off-putting.

I'm not the gay police. I'm not even gay, I just felt like it should be pointed out how this board could be perceived. I think of this site as a quasi-professional area, since it deals with a career. I can't imagine anyone ever saying "fag" in an office, but maybe I have not worked in enough places. If I am judged for being "PC" or "friendly to homosexuals" so be it. In my opinion, that's OK. I hope I didn't dampen spirits here and would like to have a truce.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
I have to admit that when I first saw the term used here on Cyburbia, I did feel a bit apprehensive. Knowing those who have used it, and seeing how it was used, I understand that it is not meant derogatively. Still, I can see why someone not as familiar with Cyburbia might be offended.
 

green lizard

Member
Messages
133
Points
6
O.K, I don't know why...
but everyone else is apologizing....

Sorry!
No offense intended!
Get over it!

(let that last one slip)
 

nerudite

Cyburbian
Messages
6,544
Points
30
Greenescapist said:
I know that all of you are decent, educated people. However, when you're a stranger coming into here and you breeze through, words like "fag" can be off-putting.
I totally agree with this summation. I haven't used the term here because I don't feel comfortable with it. I understand the usage here and I don't mind it, but I'm concerned more with the perception of the average visitor. For a forum that is constantly seeking new members, it would be a shame to lose some over a never-ending inside joke. I know members don't mean to use it pejoratively, but the 'f' word may be interpreted that way by those who don't know us or can recognize our wacky collective sense of humor.
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
I agree too. I don't find it offensive, but I know a lot of people on here are not the obsessive Cyburbanites that some of us are, so they may not get the "sorry fags" reference.


and as with every topic, there is a Simpsons reference:

Homer: They're embarrassing me....they're embarrassing America! They turned the navy into a floating joke! They ruined all our best names like Bruce and Lance and Julien....those were the toughest names we had. Now they're just, uh....

John Waters: Queer?

Homer: Yeah....and that's another thing. I resent you people using that word! That's our word for making fun of you! We NEED it!
 

Greenescapist

Cyburbian
Messages
1,169
Points
24
Another one of my favorite Simpsons lines on the gay theme.

Homer: (in an assertive, triumphant voice)
"I'm American! I like my beer cold, my TV loud and my homosexuals flaaaaaming!
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,551
Points
24
prudence said:
Brilliant. I couldn't agree more.

Everybody on the planet doesn't need to get along. And everybody does need to be tolerant of one another. Everybody needs to get their arse kicked at least once, and everybody should kick someone's arse once in their lifetime.
Wow. Spoken like a true Darwinian. Survival of the fittest, baby!

I was never offended by the "fag" references. Surprised when I saw them, maybe, but not offended. I knew it was an inside joking reference, and I never used it because I guess I never felt that I was in the "clube" well enough to use it, anyway.

BTW, Prudence, what if you're one of the people who gets their arse kicked on a regular basis, and never get a chance to kick arse yourself? Sure, PC conduct has gone WAY overboard, but the imbalance between arse-kickers and arse-kickees is what started it, isn't it?
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
I don't think that the PC thing came from an imbalance between the weak and the strong, but rather from the shift into our culture into a bunch of victims and a soctety where the worst thing you can do to someone is hurt their feelings.

Look at sports...John Rocker makes a few off the cuff, yet inappropriate remarks and he is suspended for half a month. Yet others beat the crap out of their wives and they are on the field the next night. Hell, Ray Lewis was in some way involved in a murder, yet he was never even suspended for a game.
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
Repo Man said:
I don't think that the PC thing came from an imbalance between the weak and the strong, but rather from the shift into our culture into a bunch of victims and a soctety where the worst thing you can do to someone is hurt their feelings.

Look at sports...John Rocker makes a few off the cuff, yet inappropriate remarks and he is suspended for half a month. Yet others beat the crap out of their wives and they are on the field the next night. Hell, Ray Lewis was in some way involved in a murder, yet he was never even suspended for a game.
I agree that political correctness has gotten out of control especially on college campuses where its blatant censorship. What pisses me off more than anything is when a difference of opinion is called hate speech just because its not what someone wants to hear.

But . . .some "politically correct" terms really are more "correct". Native Americans really aren't from India. Mongoloid really is a dumb word for someone with Downs Syndrome, and African American really is a better description than Black - not that I think people mean Black as offensive.

Dan, to settle this debate you need a "Gays and Lesbians of Cyburbia" sub-forum just like the APA.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,149
Points
27
Originally posted by prudence

Everybody on the planet doesn't need to get along. And everybody does need to be tolerant of one another. Everybody needs to get their arse kicked at least once, and everybody should kick someone's arse once in their lifetime.
That's the difficult part, though: How do you define tolerant? Is it considered tolerant if a homophobe continually beats the crap out of homosexuals on the street, and, while triumphantly walking home, thinks to himself, "At least I didn't kill those FLICKING fags!"?
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Alan said:
That's the difficult part, though: How do you define tolerant? Is it considered tolerant if a homophobe continually beats the crap out of homosexuals on the street, and, while triumphantly walking home, thinks to himself, "At least I didn't kill those FLICKING fags!"?
Woah. Where'd that come from?
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Greenescapist said:
Another one of my favorite Simpsons lines on the gay theme.

"....a gay steel mill?

Ah Homer the steel industry has been gay for years.

We work hard....we play hard."



Anyone watch "Gay Cruise" last night?
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Mike D. said:
"....a gay steel mill?

Ah Homer the steel industry has been gay for years.

We work hard....we play hard."

"Hot stuff, coming through!"

"Dedicated to the steel workers of America - keep reaching for that rainbow."
 

prudence

Cyburbian
Messages
688
Points
20
Seabishop said:
African American really is a better description than Black - not that I think people mean Black as offensive.
But not all blacks are initially from Africa.

And please refer to me as German-American, thank you.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,149
Points
27
Chet said:
Woah. Where'd that come from?
Ever know some one who took great pleasure in disrupting the lives of homosexuals? I have. In his mind, tolerance was about walking away after a lovely ass-kicking.

Prudence's comment about "...everybody needs to get their arse kicked at least once..." made me think of this individual. This comment is so arbitrary. It comes close to saying that violence is justifiable under any circumstance. It is a load of crap. Think back to sometime around 1999: Was the gay student in Wyoming who was beaten and dragged from a car and killed finally due for his first ass-kicking?
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Alan said:
Was the gay student in Wyoming who was beaten and dragged from a car and killed finally due for his first ass-kicking?
Well, it was his own damned fault for being in Wyoming.












Just kidding.

Seriously, I think you put Prud's comments into an interesting - if not extreme - context. You forget the ending of his little diatribe:

Originally posted by Prudence
"That way you have a full understanding what each both are like and can respect both sides."
I think what he's really trying to say is, "can't we all just get along?"
 
Top