• Ongoing coronavirus / COVID-19 discussion: how is the pandemic affecting your community, workplace, and wellness? 🦠

    Working from home? So are we. Come join us! Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no social distancing.

Another Cincinnati police beating

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,765
Points
69
Gawd, they must be doing this just to get the inevitable overtime that will come from quelling the riots in Over the Rhine.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/01/died.in.custody.ap/

CINCINNATI, Ohio (AP) -- A 350-pound black man died after being struck repeatedly by police wielding metal nightsticks, and the mayor said Monday a videotape showed that the officers were defending themselves.



My prayers are with the city of Cincinnati tonight. :(
 

The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
Points
25
I don't care where you live in the country, If you attack, threaten or disobey a cop, especially a city cop, you are going to get the crap beat out of you and yes, you might get killed. The lesson is, don't fight with cops! Their job sucks and they'll let you know it.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
The guy had cocaine and PCP in his system. The video clearly chows him disobeying the cops orders. He swings at them, chases one of them. From what I see, the Cinci Mayor was right - too early for judgement, but it appears they did what they were trained to do.

And for gods sake, the guy was a 350-400 pound addict with an enlarged heart. I doubt a few whacks were the overriding factor in his death.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,765
Points
69
I have a feeling he died due to complications as well. He was a man out of control, and there might not have been an alternative weay to subdie him; I don't think most reasonable police officers deride any pleasure from beatdowns.

Still, I think the folks in Over-The-Rhine might be seeing this differently. If that's the case, we'll see a repeat of the riots from a couple of years ago. Not good.
 

H

Cyburbian
Messages
2,850
Points
24
No sympathy here. If anything this just makes be angry that some people are so quick call it racism, if the guy were white the same people would say he deserved it. Not that anything should be ruled out, but let the investigation take place before pointing fingers. The Capt. has it right here.

Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf? Everything is not racism; and sometimes people deserve what they get. Other times they don’t. But crying wolf with every instance without proper investigation will let credibility fly out the window.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
11,513
Points
41
H said:
If anything this just makes be angry that some people are so quick call it racism, if the guy were white the same people would say he deserved it.

I am afraid that if the guy was white the response would be deafening silence.

I'm just 1.5 hrs from Cincy. My wife's brother and his family work there. After the riots 3 years ago they moved to Ft. Thomas, KY leaving a mixed-race neighborhood where they suddenly felt unsafe. It's a shame because they -- and people like them both white and black-- were stabilizing factors.

Last year Louisville police shot and killed a man who was handcuffed but still apparently managed to attack an officer with a box cutter. The case was reviewed on many levels and the officers were found justified in their use of deadly force. From what I read, the black community still considers the case murder and the Grand Jury as having been steered by racism. I guess the only lesson learned is that the divide is as great as ever.
 
Messages
5,352
Points
31
Somehow my gut tells me that if the victim had been white, he wouldn't have gotten his ass beaten like that. I'm not saying that this incident was racially motivated or not. I wasn't a witness and I don't know what way going on inside those police officers' minds. One thing that I'm certainly not advocating is the claim that "he deserved it." I don't think that any outnumbered individual deserves to be brutally mauled by police officers whether he was resisting arrest or not. I think that's totally barbaric regardless of any individual's race and/or ethnicity. If they need to subdue an individual, just shoot them in the legs or arms (aim to maim as opposed to aim to kill).
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
Planderella said:
If they need to subdue an individual, just shoot them in the legs or arms (aim to maim as opposed to aim to kill).

Good point - - and where was the pepper spray and Tazers? They are standard issue around here.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
You may be somewhat correct, Planderella,

But, its easy to sit at our computers and say all of these rational things that should have been done. However, it may be a matter more of training than racism per se. If the police force consistently has a problem with beating people down like this-then there may be institutional changes that need to be made in the training. Still, second guessing is dangerous. Its sounds like he was out of control.

There was a similar case in San Jose recently. A woman (a Vietnamese immigrant who spoke no English) was gunned down while waving a large kitchen knife at a responding police officer and her family. Tragic-but was it racism?
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Having been a cops wife perhaps i have a point of view outside the normal planner POV.

I recall when my ex was in training *and my own self defence classes* we were told that someone on PCP and other like drugs felt very little to no pain, were almost impossible to stop unless killed. The drugs were so powerful the person even when horribly wounded or faced with odds not in their favor would keep going. The drugs ruled the body not the mind in any way.

The gun at home had black talons in them and I was taught to shoot to kill becouse if someone came in or after me and happened to be on PCP etc a shot to the leg etc would not stop them.

Ive not seen the video, I was not there. Was there some racial overtones, you bet there prob were they were prob thinking he was drunk/high/screwed up becouse he was black. it sucks but they were thinking that i can almost promise you.

Did they act in a manor that was measured to the situation, again without seeing the tape if the guy was that laced out on drugs and fighting back-yes. they could have well shot him and did not. his own weight/health issues caused his death, his choices in his life lead him to the situation. The cops followed a racial "type" that is biased and wrong but may have saved their lives in this case.

just my .02 YMMV
 

H

Cyburbian
Messages
2,850
Points
24
H said:
sometimes people deserve what they get.

For the record, that statement was not meant to imply that the man deserved to die. “Sometimes people deserve what they get” is a general statement that I stand by. If you do something wrong, you will pay the consequences and I wont feel sorry for you.

I sympathize with police and military because they walk around with people trying to take them down everyday (and not just in the knees), but yet they are expected to gently handle every situation. I don’t feel sorry for drug addicts who lash out at cops, regardless of color.

Being a cop is stressful job, not to mention they get severely underpaid (as with other important jobs like teachers and planners). They are not the bad guys. They just want to go home and see their kids without being killed during their shift. Are they edgy and sometimes overreact? Sure. Most people would, they are humans, not super heroes (though we expect them to be).
 
Last edited:

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
If he was indeed high on drugs, which should be verifiable with the autopsy, one could even say that even that the cops beat him, he died of the strain of the drugs to his body.
Racism? Maybe, let's wait for the investigation.
 

otterpop

Cyburbian
Messages
6,655
Points
28
From what I saw from the video it appeared the police were involved in quite a struggle. Once an officer is rolling around on the ground with a suspect, everyone has about equal access to the officer's gun. The man was putting up a real fight and the officers appeared to be trying to get contol of the situation. Did the officers use excessive force? I don't know.

In such a situation the point where force is appropriate and it becomes excessive is a matter of seconds. While the suspect is still struggling and the officers are trying to protect themselves and others, force is not excessive. Once the situation is under control if the ass-beating continues then it is excessive.

The new reports said that the officers had called for backup and non-lethal methods for subduing the man. I don't believe police have Tazers in every patrol car. Pepper spray is a useful tool, but it is not 100%. A person hopped up on drugs or adrenilin can still resist even with a face full of pepper spray.

In the culpability ratio I would say the dead man is way in the majority. He was out of control, he had a medical condition (perhaps undiagnosed) and he was resisting. Nine time out of ten if you don't want an ass-beating from the cops all you have to do is say "yes sir" or "no sir" to their questions and if they want to take you in, you let them. It is better to sit out the night in an orange jumpsuit than end up on a slab in the morgue.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
It is hard to give a good response without having seen the video. Still, I have seen Cops enough to realize (as if I did not already know enough real cops to corroborate it) that people will do stupid things. When an officer tells you to get out of a car, do it. When s/he tells you to put your hands behind your back, do it. The only people who have anything to fear are the oneswho have something to hide.
 

Miles Ignatius

Cyburbian
Messages
368
Points
12
A Tough Call

I saw the video on last night's news and was intially outraged...it looked to me a replay of Rodney King. But I struggle with it as the police have the heavy burden for public safety (that's yours and mine as well as the perpetrator's) and the split second judgement calls in the execution of their duties is not an easy one to make.
 
Top