• Ongoing coronavirus / COVID-19 discussion: how is the pandemic affecting your community, workplace, and wellness? 🦠

    Working from home? So are we. Come join us! Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no social distancing.

Are we safer after 9-11 and the Patriot Act? (As inspired by BKM's prediction)

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
BKM's post in the Mosque made me think, we as a nation are no more safe now than we were the morning of September 11.

Students sneak box cutters onto commercial airliners.

Ports are terribly unprotected and customs officials can not possibly look into every shippin container.

We share the worlds longest unprotected border with Canada, and you cant expect the Canadians to protect to US of A.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,915
Points
36
Chet said:
We share the worlds longest unprotected border with Canada, and you cant expect the Canadians to protect to US of A.
Actually, it is in Canada's best interest to make sure the border is well protected - the damage caused to our economy when the border is clogged or closed down is tremendous. It seems every time a terrorist plot is uncovered (including 9/11) it is automatically linked to Canada, and our "porous" border. Nobody says anything when it's actually determined that the link is bogus or highly tenuous.
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
Definitely not safer. In Arizona we see so much illegal crossing it isn't even shocking anymore. The gangs who used to smuggle drugs? Oh well now they are in the people smuggling business. Apparently it is a growth industry.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Definitly not safer....if anything worse off.

More time has passed, and their plans for the bomb filled with nuclear waste from some hospital is closer to being built.

The nasty bio toxins which are planned for release in salad bars nation wide are closer to coming to fruition.

No we're not safer. And no, I don't want a Mosque in my neighborhood. Sorry Muslims and all other Middle Eastern men ages 15-90. I don't feel safe around you, because your religion preaches "jihad" and your religion tells you to reign "fire upon my people."
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
No I dont see that we are any safer. We only try to make our own people think we are safer or try to scare them into giving up more money or liberty.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
11,483
Points
41
The Patriot Act infuriates me and I just hope to live long enough to see the pendulum swing back to a free and open society.

I live 100m from a major freight rail line and while my little 'burg is unlikely to be a target of terrorism, *the next town over* is. What moves across those rails, and the industries they serve, could result in unprecedented death and destruction in a derailment -- terrorist caused or not. In this, I tend to prefer to bury my head in the sand.

IMO, the terrorists are already here and they are waiting.
 

The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
Points
25
I'd be more worried about US/Mexico border. But no we are not more safe and the shit will hit the fan again, probably bigger and better next time. It's coming, just be patient. These guys like to take their time, remember they're thinking in the span of a hundred two hundred years to destroy the Satanic empire. Ten years from now when a major terrorist attack happens and rips a new A-hole in our economy maybe we'll get it -there is no where in this world where you can fully stop this orginization except in our own land. Try to find al queda in Colombia, Brazil, Ecuador, Argentina, Uraguay, Paraguay, Venezuela, Mexico, Darien Gap, Any of the Americas! You won't! They're here and they're already promoting their interest'.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
I think we're the same as we were pre 911. The only difference now is the hystaria surronding the paraniod people who believe everything the govt tells them. The Pat Act really pisses me off. We should start a thread on why the U.S. is going to hell and how our founding fathers are rolling in their graves.
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,549
Points
25
No way are we safer. I think that we probably were a bit safer after the Afghanistan war, but the Iraq war has probably inflamed anti-us sentiment. Anyone who lost a home, a relative, or a friend in the US attacks is a potential terrorist recruit.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
El Feo said:
No safer, but no less free - IMHO.
Every now and then we "right thinking citizens" will disagree. The country will survive, but I'm worried that we are too quick to allow a civil rights cavity probe instead of telling Americans "we can't protect you against everything so get a gun, a can of mace, a cell phone or whatever and watch your own back."

I'd encourage the packing of heat by (reasonably screened) air travelers. :)
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
el Guapo said:
Every now and then we "right thinking citizens" will disagree. The country will survive, but I'm worried that we are too quick to allow a civil rights cavity probe instead of telling Americans "we can't protect you against everything so get a gun, a can of mace, a cell phone or whatever and watch your own back."

I'd encourage the packing of heat by (reasonably screened) air travelers. :)
Know what you're saying. Frankly, I'm far more incensed by the petty (or not so petty) tyranny of Massachusetts gun laws than I am about anything contained in the PA. I'm screwed if an armed burglar comes into my house, much less a terrorist. My feeling is - we've survived cavity probes in the past (brought to you by Lincoln, Wilson, FDR). But while I disagree there's real cause for concern due to PA I can appreciate the reason that you and others are concerned.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
This article is weak, but I imagine a future where your ass goes to Gitmo for pissing off the administration (any administration D. or R.) is not too far off. As a nation we don't dont value our constitution over our security. I'd rather live in a free society that has the occasional terrorist strike than an absolutely safe East Germany. I'm not saying we shouldn't prosecute the war on terror (whatever that means). I'm saying that we can do it and still operate under the pre-911 Constitution.

Protest the government's policies in the near future and you'll get an orange jump suit, a tropical dog kennel, and a copy of the Koran.

http://reviewjournal.printthis.clic...=cpt&expire=&urlID=8164533&fb=Y&partnerID=565
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,915
Points
36
el Guapo said:
I imagine a future where your ass goes to Gitmo for pissing off the administration (any administration D. or R.) is not too far off.
No, no, no - you've got it all wrong. They're gonna turn Manhattan into a Maximum Security prison...
 

Big Easy King

Cyburbian
Messages
1,361
Points
23
I don't think we're safer. It's an extra worry in The Big Easy because we have one of the most active ports in the world.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Rumpy Tuna said:
Nows a good time to buy stock in depends.
You do have a point, Depends are great for wearing under a MOPP suit, therefore, you don't have to go through the 27 step process that is required to take a piss.


BTW.....thanks to Bill Clinton, I also know that its a 32 step process to change a womas tampon in MOPP 4
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
el Guapo said:
This article is weak, but I imagine a future where your ass goes to Gitmo for pissing off the administration (any administration D. or R.) is not too far off. As a nation we don't dont value our constitution over our security. I'd rather live in a free society that has the occasional terrorist strike than an absolutely safe East Germany. I'm not saying we shouldn't prosecute the war on terror (whatever that means). I'm saying that we can do it and still operate under the pre-911 Constitution.

Protest the government's policies in the near future and you'll get an orange jump suit, a tropical dog kennel, and a copy of the Koran.

http://reviewjournal.printthis.clic...=cpt&expire=&urlID=8164533&fb=Y&partnerID=565
I am afraid that you are correct.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
Not as safe.

The rest of the world is wondering how to defend against an imperial America, rather than a benign superpower. That means more third world nukes. It also means that nations with advanced weapons programs may supply advanced weapons to client nations that will oppose the Imperium.

The war in Iraq has demonstrated where our military is weak, rather than leaving the impression that it is invincible. Other nations are undoubtedly redefining their military strategy in terms of American "weakness."

Defense against terrorism is best done by a broad coalition. By going it alone (sorry Britain, Australia, and others in the "coalition"), we have weakened the international network necessary to properly fight terrorism.
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
I'd say we're just as safe... But I'm not talking about you guys up there in the US...
We here just get more mass media coverage of robberies and felonies, so people get scared and buy guns and put alarms and live obsessed about crime and turn paranoid.
 

otterpop

Cyburbian
Messages
6,655
Points
28
I would say we are no safer. Of course I live in the relatively isolated and insulated Interior North West. Not much fear of terrorist acts here. The only real national security threats for Montana have historically been home-grown (The Freedmen and the Unibomber). I rarely travel by air, so the new security and travel restrictions have been only an annoyance I've twice dealt with. Some anglers have been denied access to dam sites under the Patriot Act, but even that is being relaxed to allow better recreational access. There has been some heated discussion about the public library refusing to comply with the Patriot Act, though that is happening all over the country.

I was amused by a fellow I know who, following 9/11, told me he was going to start carrying a gun because of the terrorist threat. I couldn't help thinking, "Man, you are a musical instrument repairman who lives in Helena Montana. 1) What are the chances you will even be a victim of a terrorist act, and 2) what good will a gun do you, anyway? Terrorists uses big hammers - planes as bombs, car bombs, maybe poisoning water supplies or poison gas, etc. I doubt a .357 would do you any good." He would be no safer than if he start carrying a mandolin!.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Mike D. said:
No we're not safer. And no, I don't want a Mosque in my neighborhood. Sorry Muslims and all other Middle Eastern men ages 15-90. I don't feel safe around you, because your religion preaches "jihad" and your religion tells you to reign "fire upon my people."
My boss is muslim you [personal attack deleted].

I wonder how long until the "muslim man" replaces the "black man" as our society's collective boogyman.

Mod Note - Yes, this is a sensitive issue, but personal attacks on other users will not be tolerated. Tranplanner
 

Budgie

Cyburbian
Messages
5,270
Points
30
Hang on, I changed my mind. I am more safe, because my local fire department has bulked up their arsenal of fire fighting, HAZMAT, bomb disposal and WMD gear. The money is flowing like tobacco settlement dollars. It's a feeding frenzy.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
jordanb said:
My boss is muslim you [personal attack deleted].

Oh well that changes everything then! Now they don't scare me, I just hate them.

[Mod Note - Sorry to hear you feel that way. Racist attacks will not be tolerated on these boards, so be careful how you phrase your opinions. Tranplanner]
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
I'll have to go with Jordanb this time. Not all Muslims are Jihadists. The extremists and fundamentalist muslims are.
It's like comparing regular Catholics with fundamentalist catholics that blow up abortion clinics and kill homosexuals... Both extreme groups are terrorists, but the regular groups are not.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Mike D. said:
Oh well that changes everything then! Now they don't scare me, I just hate them.
So you're admiting you're a racist on a public forum. Good idea.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
nope....just admitting that i hate you and everything about you.

[personal attack deleted]

[Mike and Jordan - you've both been warned now. Lay off the personal attacks. Tranplanner]
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Mike D. said:
nope....just admitting that i hate you and everything about you.

[personal attack deleted].
Can't we all just get along?

You shouldn't piss him off, jordanb, the whole world knows you don't carry now. ;)
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
I think the question begs a different answer. None of us have any idea whether we are safer today. Safer from what? Are we safer from Jet planes flying into buildings? Maybe. Are we safe from a white box truck pulling up to the Fedeal Building with a dirty bomb in it? I have the same or more faith in law enforcement today than I did before September 11?

El Guap has it right. There are crazy, hateful people out there that we cannot be competely safe from, thats the bottomline. There is no absolute here.

I have said this before, the patriot act does not scare me. much of the added law enforement tactics require a judged approval. can accept that.

The fact is that 19 20-30 something muslim men DID fly planes into buildings killing innocents and to ingnore that is irresponsible.

Finally Wulf suggested that the best means against terrorism is a "broad coalition." Not exactly sure how that would have stopped 9/11.
 

martini

Cyburbian
Messages
678
Points
19
Um, no.

I don't really worry for us normal, 'merican folk. I worry more for the immigrant who are here and are productive 'merican citizens. They're the ones getting put into a nice tidy box(MikeD). The marketing done by the Bush administration has been great, they've got a ton of uneducated, reactionary blockheads all amped up, ready to blow non-'merican sh!t up.

One of the most disturbing things I've seen is one of said URB's driving around in his jacked up, Chevy pick-em-up with the de-reguire loud pipes with 6 foot flags sticking in the holes of his sidewalls on the bed of the truck. Been that way since 9/11 too. Year round.
 

The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
Points
25
I come off as a paranoid idiot but I'm not.

The only way I wouldn't be terrified about the future is if I completely ignored international (read Arabic) opinions about the US. It's very grim and it only takes a few people with organization skills and know how to make something really bad happen. Having said that, I refuse to live in fear or be controlled by fear.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
gkmo62u said:
Finally Wulf suggested that the best means against terrorism is a "broad coalition." Not exactly sure how that would have stopped 9/11.

I think the question was are we safer AFTER 9/11. Anyway, that's the question I answered.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
You guys are so afraid of not being politically correct and nice to everyoin you simply refuse to observe the facts, thank God you are in planning and not in law enforcement.

So to insure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, we should not be allowed to profile people. Airport security will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips and Medal of Honor winning former Governors.
Let's pause a moment and take the following test.

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered in his wheelchair and thrown overboard by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks
of dynamite left over from the train job.
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain:
"Mustapha the Merciless"
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were murdered by :
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


To ignore the facts is just stupid.
 

H

Cyburbian
Messages
2,850
Points
24
Mike D I am giving you a round of applause right now. (for that last post)
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
As far as Arab Americans in everyday life people just need common sense. There's a happy medium somewhere between the guy who beats up random gas station owners and the guy who's too PC to be suspicious about the Arab guys next door who seem to be working in a basement lab all night.

There's also a difference between an Arab guy being delayed for an extra 10 minutes at an airport (not so bad) and the same guy being held at Guantanamo for no reason (bad).

As far as racial profiling, I just feel like its not a good law enforcement strategy to take that seriously . The Muslim world is huge and not all Islamic terrorists are going to look "Arab." There are militants from the Far East, Africa, and America (John Walker Lyndh). Terrorists would be wise next time to recruit non-Arabs. It reminds me of the DC Sniper incident when profilers and the media convinced everyone to look for a white guy loner because it fit the profile.
 

Wannaplan?

Bounty Hunter
Messages
3,212
Points
29
I think the point Mike D. just made was that it is unsafe for Americans to engage in international travel. The point of my response is not to be rude and disrespectful to the victims of the following atrocities, but only to point out that Mike D's presentation of the "facts" and his supposed point fail to address safety on the homeland.

1)
In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil.

2)
]In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil.

3)
During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil

4)
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil.

5)
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered in his wheelchair and thrown overboard by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil.

6)
In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil.

7)
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks
of dynamite left over from the train job.
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


I don't know too much about this one. Was this the one that crashed in Scotland?

8)
In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Okay, you have a point on this one.

9)
In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain:
"Mustapha the Merciless"
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil.

10)
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were murdered by :
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Point well taken.

11)
In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


This one is different than the other ones. In this one, the U. S. is the agressor. Why even include it?

12)
In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Not on U. S. soil.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
Mike D. said:
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered in his wheelchair and thrown overboard by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Rumpy Tuna
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

To ignore the facts is just stupid.
Hey how did I get included in this one?
 

martini

Cyburbian
Messages
678
Points
19
Yeah, Embassies are US soil, but Wanigas' point is still valid MikeD. They were international events. I'm not one to be PC either, but I also have respect for other persons, arab, indian, chinese, redneck, native, rumpy tuna's, whatever. You seem entirely too happy to lump EVERYONE into your snappy, tidy little box that says:

ALL ARAB MEN ARE TERRORISTS.

Sorry, you're wrong on that one bub.

Lets not forget, the US antics certainly haven't helped these matters over the last 30 years. All administrations are to blame for this.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
You ever carried body parts in a 5 gallon bucket? Come tell me how you feel after you do.
 

martini

Cyburbian
Messages
678
Points
19
What's your point? That I'll hate every aspect of "X" race if I do? Sorry you had to do that....I'm sure it sucked. My point still remains though. You're putting everything into a box that it won't fit into.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Final Reply To This Thread

Obviously,

I do not hate all Arabs. That would be really dumb of me to state that. However, I do reserve the right to be very skeptical, afraid, fearful, more observant of Arab men because of their history.

If you feel you deserve any further explanation, please PM me, e-mail me, whatever.
 
Top