City vs City #1 - St. Louis vs Kansas City

[Dan]

St. Louis - pros

Outstanding high culture
Central West End - parks, pedestrian oriented high density neighborhoods
Architecture - Sullivan, brick homes, etc.
Solid ethnic neighborhoods
Bohemian edge
More colleges and universities than KC
Close to other large Midwestern and Appalachian cities

St. Louis - cons

Profound urban decay and population loss on the north side and East St. Louis
Aesthetically challenged - billboards galore throughout the metropolitan region
Urban sprawl extending +50 km of downtown ... very far for a city its size.
A few portions of downtown show evidence of Detroit-like characteristics re: abandonment

Kansas City - pros

Country Club Plaza, Crown Center and other vibrant areas in the city
Parks and parkway system
Stable urban neighborhoods, with few exceptions
Clean and attractive, with little urban decay compared to comparable cities
Growing city population (thanks to Kansas City North)
Most comprehensive expressway system for a city its size in the US; level of service B during rush hour

Kansas City - cons

Downtown has very little nightlife
Perception of being a bit dull
Not very compact; no rail transit
Competition between states, little regional planning
Horrible airport
What happens if Sprint pulls a Worldcom?

 

[El Feo]

Dan, I dig the new feature

City smackdown - what a great idea!

 

[Repo Man]

I have visited St. Louis 4 or 5 times and KC once. I had to vote for St. Louis due to the presence of two downtown stadiums (with good teams playing in them), La Clede's landing, etc.

KC has does have some cool things like the Negro League Baseball Museum, the Jazz museum, and Country Club Plaza. Plus Gates BBQ ribs Being a sports fan, I enjoyed Kaufmann Stadium, but it is kind of in the middle of nowhere (plus the Royals play there). However, it didn't seem very vibrant but that may be due to the fact I was only there for 3 days.

How about a Madison, WI vs Milwaukee, WI smackdown for a future thread?

 

[BKM]

St Louis. I just like old fashioned 'brick and stone" cities. Even in decay, St Louis' neighborhoods have a character I like.

KC definitely benefited from the City Beautiful movement, but it felt a little bland. And, I like the nice suburbs of St Louis better than Johnson County (not that I could afford to live in either ) . Finally, the topo in St Louis wins, overall.

 

[Bucky alum]

Dan, Let me dispute MCI (Kansas City Airport) with you. Yes it is out in the middle of nowhere, however is a very convient airport for originating or departing passengers. It is horrible for connecting passengers but you will only do that on Southwest, but Southwest always sucks for connections no matter where you are.

The airport I believe was the last major airport built before degregulation and the concepts of hub and spoke. In case you haven't been there, you walk in the door, check in and the gate is no more than 25 feet from the front door. Each seating lounge is closed off and has its own security.

I think Mid-America is one of the worst airports in the country. TWA's downfall of the last 10 years left the airport in despair.

Aside from that--

All in all I think Kansas City, Milwaukee, and St. Louis will be considered successful urban renewal in the next ten years due to the availability of lofts downtown and cheap office space. The key will be developing a niche with the univesities nearby to foster growth.

However Kansas City to me is a better city due to the extensive parks and no E. St. Louis.

 

[Bucky alum]

JT Fortin

I get to do the writeup on Madison!! I however would rather see a matchup of similar sized cities such as Milwaukee vs Minneapolis. BTW, Madison v Milwaukee isn't even close. Madison is the obvious choice

 

[Joe Iliff]

Dan, do you want us to look at these as tourists/visitors, or potential residents, or with an overall point of view? If I'm visiting a city for a few days, then I want interesting sites and amenities, convenient transportation to them, stuff like that. If I'm a potential resident, I want a healthy economy, good housing choices, schools, tax rates, all that stuff.

I can think of lots of cities that are good places to live, but not visit, and vice versa.

Are you looking for just one or the other, or both, comparing the overall view of the city from residents, businesses, and visitors?

Just trying to establish the guidelines.

 

[JivecitySTL]

No offense to KC forumers, but this is a no-brainer. St. Louis all the way! Metro STL has a million more people! It's older, bolder, more seasoned, more urban, more densely populated, more cosmopolitan, more established, more diverse, more of everything. I may be slightly biased, but I'm speaking the truth!

Ahhhh, the Gateway City!

 

[Wannaplan?]

Ahhhhh! Stop with all the pics! We get it already! No offense, but we know you love St. Louis. I can unerstand your enthusiasm, but one or two pics will do the job. I just have a slow connection, that's all.

 

[JivecitySTL]

Sorry man, ever since I got DSL I've become less sensitive of those who have dial-ups. My bad.

 

[KCgridlock]

Jive, you gota get some new pics!

I'll post a couple of pics do defend KC a little.

I am impressed by the replys on this forum. It is VERY rare for someone from to east or west coast to even know that kc is in MO let alone some of the details about it posted here.

KC over StL anyday. A million more people? Yea and they are all in the suburbs.

 

[Dan]

Admistrator's note re: photos

Photos are a Good Thing (tm). This is a board about "cities and places," after all. Posting (or, rather, cross-linking) pictures is common on other urbanism-related bulletin boards.

A single post can contain up to 20 cross-linked images. If you're using a slow connection, you can set the maximum amount of posts displayed on a thread page in your user control panel. You can also turn off the display of cross-linked images, substituting links to the image.

Post 'em if you got 'em.

Admistrator's note re: city vs city

I won't take the credit for this. Other boards have "city versus city" debates. However, they usually don't involve polling.

As far as how to vote ... well, consider that you're going to be living there, and that you have the financial means to do so at the same standard of living at which you are now living.

An "urban smackdown" contest, like the "sexiest woman in the world" playoffs held on some Web site not too long ago, would be a great idea!

 

[JivecitySTL]

KCgridlock, "they're all in the suburbs" is a false statement. At any given moment there are hundreds of thousands more people in the City of St. Louis than actually live there. A 2.6 million metro depends heavily on its central city.

And this is a different forum that hasn't seen these pics yet.

 

[el Guapo]

KC is home to my clan (not KLAN)

I'm sure St. Louis is very nice but I have to go with KC based simply on its superior Bar-B-Que.

KC is not Bland. If you want excitement drive down The Paseo or park on 5th and Qunidaro with El Guapo and his camo truck.

I also reserve the right to post 6 megs of photos of delicious KC Ribs.

 

[KCPowercat]

Jive...a million more? Wow...1.8 vs. 2.5 is a million?

KC all the way.....cleaner, Plaza, Crown center, Union Station isn't a mall....

 

[JivecitySTL]

My bad, I rounded up. The difference is about 830,000 people, or in other words, roughly the size of metropolitan Tuscon. That's still a major difference.

STL: 2,603,607

KC: 1,776,062

It would be nice to hear reasons why one city is better than the other instead of just casting votes. Anyone?

 

[KCPowercat]

All in the suburbs.....we both know the benefits of an urban population.....suburbs are everywhere and nothing to brag about...you do have 800,000 extra stlouisguy25's

I like St Louis...it's a fun city....I just like KC better.....reasons I posted and many more.

 

[JivecitySTL]

KCPowercat, I'm sure you know the influence a 2.6 million metro has upon the central city. I wish more people lived in the city, but still, we have 830,000 more people depending upon St. Louis City than depending upon Kansas City, not to mention our thriving tourism industry, which I'm sure also beats KC's. Nonetheless, despite the fact that KC has more people living within its central city, STL City continues to maintain a higher population density and of course our housing stock and building density is on another level entirely than KC.

KC's a fine city, I actually like it a lot. To me it's just a notch or two below the Lou.

 

[KCPowercat]

actually I was just screwing with you...of course having suburbites still has an impact on the central city.

I don't see why everything has to be a notch or 2 below anything else...I see cities as fairly even...you've got about 4 groups of cities, anything from over Million to under about 4 million is about the same...maybe more Best Buys but that's about it...same quality and type of attractions.

Of course there are some things that draw people to one city or another but mostly they are pretty similar.

Having said that, KC wins

 

[el Guapo]

Suggestion for Denver 2003

Caged Texas-Style City v. City Grudge Matches to the Death!

 

[Jeff]

I have to go with STL simply because they have a hockey team. I can't be without my hockey. Sorry KC

 

[Downtown]

Perhaps it was the hundreds upon hundreds of slides of STL that we were shown by Dr. Faris in grad school, but STL got my vote. Plus, my favorite bird is the cardinal (are they even in St. L anymore?)

 

[Jeff]

Hey wait a minute....

STL got Rolen and JD Drew. I'm changing my vote to KC

 

[BKM]

You guys are way too tame.

Has anyone ever visited the skyscraperpage forum? THEIR debates involve rpomises of "slapping you upside the head" for dissing various cities. The LA versus New Jersey debate was particularly entertaining.

 

[el Guapo]

Kelly?

ST Louie? How could you? That does it! I'm having a talk with your dad! See you Thanksgiving!

 

[Xing500]

ST LOUIS

 

[SouthSideSlayer]

You guys are way too tame.

Has anyone ever visited the skyscraperpage forum? THEIR debates involve rpomises of "slapping you upside the head" for dissing various cities. The LA versus New Jersey debate was particularly entertaining.

Yeah, it's quite entertaining....

Check this out:

I hate Chicago!

- The Real World cast was a joke! Talk about people putting on acts! Arg...what a waste of a season.
- I don't understand why people say the skyline is great? It is just as mixed up as Atlanta is. You have a tall buildings and then a lot of short....then SUDDENDLY another tall building. Skyline isn't awful, but definatley not anything special.
- AT&T just sucks period!
- The tallest box in the U.S. continues to make the skyline an eyesore.

I hate LA!
It's miles and miles of cheezy neighborhoods,clotted freeways and huge factories.No real city,just a lot of...nothing,punctuated here and there with some nice places.Totally owned by the car,it's a hundred suburbs in search of a city,a big blob of sprawl in a septic bowl of pollution,a beautiful slice of geography,forever spoiled.
Phoenix is Nowhere,a lost opportunity,a place with no center.It's miles of boring,walled-off subdivisions with dirt lawns,baking in a relentless blast of sunshine.The most scenic parts of the place-the stunning mountains that surround the Valley-,vanish each morning into the haze and auto-induced pollution,giving one the sensation that he is on the urbanized Moon.
Detriot...
The oxidized buckle of the Rust Belt.It used to hold up some Important Pants.Now,those tattered pants hang around Michigan's ankle.The new clothes are in the suburbs,and the last clothing store downtown just closed.
Buffalo once held some personal importance to me(it still does,actually),and at the time,the city looked important as well.You could SMELL the importance as you drove around town.Here a steel mill to sniff,there a tire factory giving you the whiff of Vulcan.Today the air is cleaner,the city shrunken.After a visit to Buffalo,getting out of town fast now becomes important.
Juarez,Mexico.My God,people actually LIVE here?
There are a few more on my List,but I don't want to offend everybody at once with my opinions.

That's fine dude, just remember, we're actually organizing an effort here, not devoting resources and brainpower to slamming the other side. We'll let our bid speak for itself.

What athlete, especially those serving on the USOC committee, is going to want to suffer through New York summer weather when they have the microclimates of the Bay Area to pick and choose from? Hmmm...random thunderstorms and associated torrential downpours with 90 degree heat and high humidity.....*or*....65-85 degree temperature range (your choice), guaranteed natural air conditioning with a near-constant breeze, no rain even remotely possible until November....wow, tough one.

If New York gets the US Olympic bid, can you imagine how belligerent, provincial and crass its leaders and citizens will be to the international competition?

"Hey, fock yo, Rio dee Juhneero, we are the only city and you's awll suck. Noo Yawk! Noo Yawk!"

"Paris, shut yer yap, you fat frogs, or we'll stuff onion bagels up your fockin' bidet-holes. We are the only city. Noo Yawk! Noo Yawk!"

"Hey, London, you wants me to shove some fockin' Olympic spirit up your ass? Now shaddup and buy something, or get owff of my island! Noo Yawk! Noo Yawk!"

Originally posted by EastSideHBG
shakman: Welcome to the anti-ego club

Hey thanks!!! I see we have a tough job ahead of us

I asked to question and the only thing I got was crap - only from St. Louis. I have asked this same question on other threads I have received educated answers.

Yep, I can see what you mean. I understand now it is almost impossible to have a conversation with them, so I will stop trying. Their ego blinds them from the truth in all subjects, and also prevents them from arguing in a MATURE manner, without resorting to name calling and personal insults.

 

[Xing500]

 

[el Guapo]

True St. Louis Story -SHMG!

[ot]I'm going to a college bud's wedding in St. Louis with three other good friends and we decide to go to the Arch the day before. Well we are 6 on a 10 drunk scale by noon. That last level of drunk where it is not obvious at 30 meters. Anyway we get into the big fiberglass bucket with the door that will take the four of us to the top. We were the first ones in and there was not much of a line. While we are in the tramcar Bud # one pulls out his one-hitter and tells us how he is going to get stoned in the Arch. We all suggest that it is VERY BAD IDEA. He fires up anyway. He does two complete hits and the required holdddddddddddd -choke maneuver.

We arrive at the top of the Arch and the cars open and we emerge from a cloud of blue-green haze to find all of the cars behind us were packed with the four-state region variety pack of visiting state troopers - all resplendent in their various uniforms. Most big time brass judging from the gold crap they had all over them. Bud # one decides that is the perfect time to get the OMG giggles. We grab him and exit ASAP. I never got a chance to look out of the Arch - but I have been to the top![/ot]

 

[Xing500]

 

[KCgridlock]

Hmm...The Lou has pulled ahead!

 

[Tom R]

Bird

Never spent any time in either place, but, if I have to choose, since Charlie Parker cut his teeth in the KC club scene, I'll go with it. As good a reason as any.

 

[JivecitySTL]

Hmm...now it gets interesting...

Charlie Parker (KC) or Miles Davis (STL)??

 

[Xing500]

ugh, dumb photofun deleted my account. here are some other pics

 

[Tom R]

kc

Hmm...now it gets interesting...

Charlie Parker (KC) or Miles Davis (STL)??

Miles broke in with Bird and Diz. Gotta go with Bird, unless we bring Satchmo into the arena.

 

[Xing500]

its too quiet in here. *(sound of crickest)*

 

[cheryl]

downtown kc

i lived in kc for about a year in 1998/ 99... the coolest thing to me was the revitalization of their downtown. the old warehouses were being turned into great artsy loft spaces, independent coffee shops and restaurants... it was very cool. i wonder how it has progressed since then...
anybody know if YJ's is still there?

cheryl

 

[olvidarte]

I have to vote St. Louis. I grew up in suburban St. Louis and have recently discovered all the great things about the city. It's a great place to be and the architecture is outstanding and I really see signs of new life being breathed back into St. Louis, it seems there is a lot of development downtown, esp. on Washington Ave with all the lofts and apartments coming online in the next 6 months or year. And the Continental Building renovation in Midtown is a another boost for that area.

The Arch is great, but so is Tower Grove Park, the Central West End, City Museum, FOREST PARK and countless other things.

I know there is some talk about population, but STL holds it's own pretty well considering it's land area is signifigantly less than KC:

STL
62 sq mi

KC
314 sq mi.
(I'm not sure if this means anything, I'm a graphic artist so I don't claim to know that much)

If St. Louis didn't break away from its county in the 1800's STL would be one of the largest cities in the United States right now, I still have to shake my head at the decision of city leaders on that one. Politicians...


Anyway, St. Louis is great place to be, it has its problems, but what city doesn't?

By the way, nice pictures Jive.

 

[Cardinal]

Having spent plenty of time in St. Louis (several visits) and Kansas City, I would have to say.... St. Louis, hands down. An interesting match, though. Same State, opposite sides. Similar terrain and climate. About the same population (close enough).

jfortin - maybe match up Madison, WI and Rochester, MN? Milwaukee and Pittsburgh?

Some other possibilities: Portland and Boston; Santa Fe and Savannah; San Diego or Miami; Carson City or Albany.

 

[JivecitySTL]

While the population gap between STL and KC has decreased over the years, St. Louis is still a significantly larger metro area.

STL: 2.6 million
KC: 1.7 million

That to me is a pretty big difference.

Another thing that makes St. Louis feel so much more urban is its rich history and architectural integrity. Keep in mind that as recently as 1950, STL had almost 900,000 people in its city limits! That is bigger than Boston and San Francisco have EVER been! The vast majority of that infrastructure is still in place today, creating an atmosphere in St. Louis that exudes a big city vibe.

KC is great, but it in comparison to the Lou, it just feels more townish. Both great places though, no question about it.

 

[Rumpy Tunanator]

Which is better? You guys need to through an "other" option in their for the poll.

 

[oulevin]

Haven't spent enough time in either to make a good judgment, but went with KC simply for its jazz, fountains, Country Club Plaza, and those huge shuttlecocks in front of the Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art

 

[Jen]

Which is better? You guys need to through an "other" option in their for the poll.

Ya gotta choose one or the other rumps You revived the thread, now vote!

I would go with STL though i haven't been to either city.

 

[Rumpy Tunanator]

Ya gotta choose one or the other rumps You revived the thread, now vote!

I would go with STL though i haven't been to either city.

I voted other, I guess I'll go with St Louis because they have a high rate of the clap.

[MOD NOTE] Tuna, This here be the serious side of Cyburbia. That there comment of your's is more of a Friday Afternoon Club sort of thing, get me? - Sincerely el Guapo [/MOD NOTE]

 

[Citylover]

St. Louis all the way baby.

 

[mendelman]

I chose St. Louis, only because I like the Built St. Louis website.

I've never been to either KS or STL.

 

[JivecitySTL]

Since my old pics don't work, I figured I should try to represent the Gateway City with photographic evidence. Saint Louis is truly one of the most authentic, original and colorful cities in the United States. I love this old bitch...

Of course these pics only show the city from afar, but it's just as amazing at street level. The people, the neighborhoods, the history, the soul--- this is one hell of a city.

 

[Rumpy Tunanator]

I see that your major park, "Forest Park", seems to have a major expressway going through it. We have the same problem here although it is soon to be resolved.
-The City of Buffalo has one of the most extensive park systems in the country designed by FLO, Fredrick Law Olmstead, and are currently in the process of lessening the effects of the 198 expressway on it. I'll have to update everbody on it as the plans continue (and Yes a big traffic circle is in order).

 

[The Irish One]

St. Louis

 

[JivecitySTL]

That's not an expressway, that's Forest Park Parkway. It's actually a great street, both for convenience and scenery. Most of Forest Park Parkway is closed until 2006, when the new Metro line opens (which will run parallel to it both above ground and underground).