• Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, the built environment, planning adjacent topics, and anything else that comes to mind. No ads, no spam, and it's free. It's easy to join!

Health 🏥 Coronavirus and other pandemics

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,972
Points
71
“Do not take medicine for animals,”
Oklahoma stores sold out of horse deworming drug despite FDA warning about consumption


“There’s too much potential for error if a person goes and takes a veterinary product intended for large animals,”
said Scott Schaeffer with the Oklahoma Poison Control Center.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
Well, this is not good...


Granted it is still way better than nothing, but only 66% is still concerning.

As for mandates, now that the Pfizer version has full FDA approval, I support mandates for that version of the vaccine, even if it is only 66% effective.

Additionally, I would rather see them reformulate the booster shot to handle the Delta Variant than continue to give the version that they have out there.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,622
Points
59
Well, this is not good...


Granted it is still way better than nothing, but only 66% is still concerning.

As for mandates, now that the Pfizer version has full FDA approval, I support mandates for that version of the vaccine, even if it is only 66% effective.

Additionally, I would rather see them reformulate the booster shot to handle the Delta Variant than continue to give the version that they have out there.
66% is why we are seeing breakthrough cases. When someone decides not to get it, they are playing roulette with people who did get it. Which is why the argument is insanely weak for why people aren't getting vaccinated (in general, I understand there are very unique specific cases where someone can't).

Can you imagine what the hospitals would look like if the vaccine was more in line with the flu vaccine each year at about 40%?
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
66% is why we are seeing breakthrough cases. When someone decides not to get it, they are playing roulette with people who did get it. Which is why the argument is insanely weak for why people aren't getting vaccinated (in general, I understand there are very unique specific cases where someone can't).

Can you imagine what the hospitals would look like if the vaccine was more in line with the flu vaccine each year at about 40%?
I can't imagine it because I don't think it would be possible. My wife is all stressed because her hospital is over capacity right now and they are starting to see people who are fully vaccinated end up in the ICU as well. It is still only a tiny percentage, but it has everyone worked up.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
11,539
Points
52
Yesterday afternoon our county mandated masks for all daycare and public school students and staff in schools as long as the county is in substantial or high risk of transmission. This morning I had to walk the gauntlet of about 150 protestors outside our health department HQ as I had to drop some stuff off over there to the Veterans Services on my way in today. :r:

Thankfully I was able to exit out of the back doors and go around all the "Michigan Freedom Keepers" or whatever they're calling themselves.



In other news I got bit by a horsefly on my leg yesterday and now my calf is all swelled up and oozing pus. Should I take some ivermectin for that? I hear it's good for calves.

Okay, bad jokes aside, I did get bit by a horsefly and my calf is indeed oozing pus. This is the second summer in a row with a bad horsefly bite. I got one on my ankle last summer and it ended up swelling up the size of a grapefruit for a day or so. Thankfully this one doesn't seem quite as bad.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,972
Points
71
WTH is wrong with

Tennessee GOP lawmakers push 'horse paste' treatment despite FDA warning

some Republican legislators in Tennessee are suggesting the treatment should be normalized,

a noted anti-vaxxer in the state, also addressed lawmakers, suggesting they could possibly compel doctors and pharmacists to dispense non-FDA-approved drugs.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
11,539
Points
52
WTH is wrong with

Tennessee GOP lawmakers push 'horse paste' treatment despite FDA warning

Hold my beer!

 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,972
Points
71
Thread Split -


 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,972
Points
71
Monday local hospital release their numbers

150 COVID-positive hospitalized patients — 129 of whom are "not vaccinated."
There are 52 infected patients in the ICU ... All but 3 are unvaccinated.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
11,539
Points
52
OK, now this is personal: We were supposed to get an ice cream truck to come to our office today and provide free ice cream to us after lunch today for an employee appreciation thing but now it's been canceled because of "optics" and the protestors across the street (who are still out there)! :mad:
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,972
Points
71
Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic
 

Big Owl

Cyburbian
Messages
2,947
Points
39
OK, now this is personal: We were supposed to get an ice cream truck to come to our office today and provide free ice cream to us after lunch today for an employee appreciation thing but now it's been canceled because of "optics" and the protestors across the street (who are still out there)! :mad:
Hey WSU, what would you do for a Klondike Bar?
 

Doohickie

Cyburbian
Messages
4,153
Points
47
Additionally, I would rather see them reformulate the booster shot to handle the Delta Variant than continue to give the version that they have out there.
I've been wondering about this. Is there a version of the vaccine that is being tailored to emerging variants? When will that be available?
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,622
Points
59
So I am pretty clear where I stand on COVID, vaccination, and how much anti-vaxxers and weak governors and elected officials bother me. With that said, I do not like how much the media likes to tout these idiots when they get COVID and sadly have died. I understand why they do it, because of the hypocrisy. I get it. I just don't like it.

I am not sure how we balance still wanting people to live with hating their very stupid policy positions. I would prefer that people just live and make better choices. The excitement over the death of someone who is stupid or made a stupid decision is not becoming of our country... :shrug:
 

terraplnr

Cyburbian
Messages
2,467
Points
30
We've had a mask mandate (for indoors) for work/school/business/etc. for a few weeks now. Our local hospital system still has some capacity but is preparing for a rise in COVID pediatric patients in September and October because of the kids going back to school. :( I've already received two emails from my 8th grader's school that two students in one of his (six) classrooms tested positive, and he hasn't even been back for two full weeks yet. He's vaccinated so we're doing what we can but ugh, this is going to suck this fall. :(
 

Doohickie

Cyburbian
Messages
4,153
Points
47
This is a fascinating tool to mess around with. I keep running through scenarios I've been in recently and being surprised by the results (situations I thought might be lower, and ones I thought might be higher).
I'm in Texas so everything gives a High Risk answer.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
This is a fascinating tool to mess around with. I keep running through scenarios I've been in recently and being surprised by the results (situations I thought might be lower, and ones I thought might be higher).
This is interesting. Base on the details, in my region if you are outdoors for a walk and you stop to chat with someone at least 6 feet away and the both people have a mask on, and one has COVID, it still shows up as a medium risk.

One of the kids is quarantining today at the schools recommendation. They were at an outdoor birthday party that had a water slide and sprinklers on Friday evening. We found out yesterday that one of the other kids tested positive on Sunday afternoon. They were asymptomatic until Sunday morning. Biggest element of frustration is the school does not know what to do in this situation and need to wait on guidance from the County Health Department. Crazy thing is there were 6 other kids in the same class at the party, but the kid with COVID is doing virtual learning again this year.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
Wife was on call this weekend and got called in 3 times. Apparently there is discussion now about putting up tents in the parking garage to set up a triage system. They already occupied the waiting rooms and the intake areas. ICU is now using cots as they have no beds available.


She has a feeling that they will do a full lockdown again because there are several situations that are worse now then they were this past fall/winter.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: JNA

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,622
Points
59
It is by almost all accounts way worse than in the winter. Delta is just so damn good at being caught by others (i.e. transmissible). Kids not being vaccinated didn't matter as much in the winter, as the disease wasn't crazy transmissible. Well now it is. And the elderly are fairly protected (because they actually follow directions and get vaccinated -- you know the greatest generation level stuff), but kids are not.

I am aware of at least six hospitals in our general area that are going into their bed shortage protocols. In Ohio it isn't even that bad yet. If we get like Florida, we are absolutely screwed. Hopefully we have more of our population that believes in science in Ohio....
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
It is by almost all accounts way worse than in the winter. Delta is just so damn good at being caught by others (i.e. transmissible). Kids not being vaccinated didn't matter as much in the winter, as the disease wasn't crazy transmissible. Well now it is. And the elderly are fairly protected (because they actually follow directions and get vaccinated -- you know the greatest generation level stuff), but kids are not.

I am aware of at least six hospitals in our general area that are going into their bed shortage protocols. In Ohio it isn't even that bad yet. If we get like Florida, we are absolutely screwed. Hopefully we have more of our population that believes in science in Ohio....
I wish it wasn't bad here... but it is.

We just learned that another one of the kids at the birthday party, (and one of my youngest's best friends) tested positive. Since the party was just a a couple days ago, it is likely that he caught it before the party and apparently he is still asymptomatic. We decided that we are going to do family COVID testing later this afternoon... YEA! I am going to be amazed if my youngest does not test positive. If it is negative, it just means that he already had it and didn't know it.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
We decided that we are going to do family COVID testing later this afternoon... YEA! I am going to be amazed if my youngest does not test positive. If it is negative, it just means that he already had it and didn't know it.
Everyone was negative. Which furthers my suspicion that we had it last year.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
11,539
Points
52
Everyone was negative. Which furthers my suspicion that we had it last year.

Is it possible to easily get tested for antibodies? I've always been curious about this. I have never shown symptoms and doubt that I ever contracted COVID as we just never really went anywhere but it would be interesting to get tested for antibodies as part of routine bloodwork for a physical or maybe when donating blood or even if local health authorities wanted to do a large random sample. I bet there are a lot of people walking around with antibodies who never exhibited symptoms, especially really young people.

Disclaimer: I keep seeing more and more evidence that it's much easier to become reinfected even if you have antibodies, especially with some of these newer variants so I'm really more interested in the topic of antibodies as a "who was infected and never knew it" thing more so than a herd immunity thing.
 

Doohickie

Cyburbian
Messages
4,153
Points
47
Everyone was negative. Which furthers my suspicion that we had it last year.
That doesn't make you immune, you realize that, right?

Anyway, a friend has an 11 year old daughter who came home from school sick, basically strep throat symptoms. Strep test was negative. They did a Covid test, but the one that takes a couple of days (because they didn't have any of the instant tests). So now she waits.

Although vaccinated people are getting Delta, the vax still provides considerable protection from getting very sick from the virus. Delta is different from previous variants in that it's more effective at establishing the beachhead in the mucus membranes of the sinuses and throat, and therefore is more spreadable. The vaccines focus on building blood-borne antibodies (and basically ignored the mucus-borne type) because what makes Covid insidious is what it does systemically once it gets into the bloodstream.

So even though it doesn't prevent Delta infection as efficiently as it did earlier variants, the current vaccines are still good tools for protecting people from Covid.
 

Doohickie

Cyburbian
Messages
4,153
Points
47
I'm really more interested in the topic of antibodies as a "who was infected and never knew it" thing more so than a herd immunity thing.
I was starting to think Texas was approaching herd immunity based on number of vaccinated people plus number of people estimated to have had the virus and lived. That number is up in the 60+% range. Delta crushed that line of thinking.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,622
Points
59
Is it possible to easily get tested for antibodies? I've always been curious about this. I have never shown symptoms and doubt that I ever contracted COVID as we just never really went anywhere but it would be interesting to get tested for antibodies as part of routine bloodwork for a physical or maybe when donating blood or even if local health authorities wanted to do a large random sample. I bet there are a lot of people walking around with antibodies who never exhibited symptoms, especially really young people.

Disclaimer: I keep seeing more and more evidence that it's much easier to become reinfected even if you have antibodies, especially with some of these newer variants so I'm really more interested in the topic of antibodies as a "who was infected and never knew it" thing more so than a herd immunity thing.
Yes it is. You can buy at home tests (although they aren't great and are around $25 a pop), or you can go get tested at a local clinic.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,333
Points
49
I'm still confused about what's Delta or not. Most of the tests just say whether you're positive for COVID or not; they don't test for the variant. So how do they really know? My understanding is that involves genome testing and not all places have that capability.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,622
Points
59
I'm still confused about what's Delta or not. Most of the tests just say whether you're positive for COVID or not; they don't test for the variant. So how do they really know? My understanding is that involves genome testing and not all places have that capability.
You wouldn't know generally. If you go to an Emergency Room, they will run tests on you and then send that data to the lab. The lab will do the genomic testing required to confirm that information.

If you are vaccinated though and you get COVID, you can assume it is the Delta variant, just by the nature of the variant, but that isn't a guarantee.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
Is it possible to easily get tested for antibodies? I've always been curious about this. I have never shown symptoms and doubt that I ever contracted COVID as we just never really went anywhere but it would be interesting to get tested for antibodies as part of routine bloodwork for a physical or maybe when donating blood or even if local health authorities wanted to do a large random sample. I bet there are a lot of people walking around with antibodies who never exhibited symptoms, especially really young people.

Disclaimer: I keep seeing more and more evidence that it's much easier to become reinfected even if you have antibodies, especially with some of these newer variants so I'm really more interested in the topic of antibodies as a "who was infected and never knew it" thing more so than a herd immunity thing.
Yes it is. You can buy at home tests (although they aren't great and are around $25 a pop), or you can go get tested at a local clinic.
How well do these work? They sound interesting. I know the FDA and the CDC are not recommending them to determine effectiveness of the vaccine since the test for different things, but I am wondering on their effectiveness once someone has been vaccinated.

That doesn't make you immune, you realize that, right?

Anyway, a friend has an 11 year old daughter who came home from school sick, basically strep throat symptoms. Strep test was negative. They did a Covid test, but the one that takes a couple of days (because they didn't have any of the instant tests). So now she waits.

Although vaccinated people are getting Delta, the vax still provides considerable protection from getting very sick from the virus. Delta is different from previous variants in that it's more effective at establishing the beachhead in the mucus membranes of the sinuses and throat, and therefore is more spreadable. The vaccines focus on building blood-borne antibodies (and basically ignored the mucus-borne type) because what makes Covid insidious is what it does systemically once it gets into the bloodstream.

So even though it doesn't prevent Delta infection as efficiently as it did earlier variants, the current vaccines are still good tools for protecting people from Covid.
That's really not an accurate statement.
WOW, for those who are losing their freaking mind over my comments, I am curious in regards of what your analysis would be then given the following:
  • His mother treats COVID 19 patients and a major regional hospital
  • His 3 best friends have all tested positive at some point in the past 8 weeks for COVID and he plays with them on an almost daily basis. (with the exception of the times between them testing positive and a negative test)
  • He is too young to be vaccinated yet.
  • He has tested negative twice in the past 3 weeks and has not shown any symptoms.
  • We learned this morning that his class is now classified as a cluster infection.
I am not saying he is immune, but he seems to be bucking the trend given extremely high risk stations. I don't think any of us are immune regardless of vaccination status or anything else. A local business owner lost his fully vaccinated mother earlier this month to COVID. Now I am not a virologist or immunologist, but outside of having them tested, I think that is a possible explanation.

We have our younger kids mask up anytime they leave the house, they are not permitted to go into anyone else's house when they are out playing, and outside of locking them in the house, we are taking all the recommended health department precautions. We are also plan to get them vaccinated once it is made available to them.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,333
Points
49
No one is losing their mind. You made a statement that is simply not factual. You said if your son tested negative it just meant he already had it. That's not necessarily true. A person can be infected more than once. It's fairly rare, but it's been documented. That's all.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
No one is losing their mind. You made a statement that is simply not factual. You said if your son tested negative it just meant he already had it. That's not necessarily true. A person can be infected more than once. It's fairly rare, but it's been documented. That's all.
You are correct, it might not be true and I never said someone can't get it twice. Maybe my kids just have amazing immune systems, but give all the factors (including some health situations that they deal with), having some level of resistance based on past infections is still a logical determination. We won't know unless we get him tested for the antibodies.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,333
Points
49
Interesting about the football team. At Clemson I know for a fact that students have to get tested once a week. All students. I am almost certain a part of that is to help ensure that the football team stays clean and can play. Lots of dollars at stake if they can't play.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
No one's losing their minds over your comment. Chill the hell out.
Given how quick people were to say I am wrong…. Yea, people were.

But on a related note:

This interesting, but I wonder if it will stand up to peer reviews and everything else. I also wonder about the raw data associated with this study and if it was really randomized and what the intensity of symptoms for those who did have COVID were.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,622
Points
59
Given how quick people were to say I am wrong…. Yea, people were.

But on a related note:

This interesting, but I wonder if it will stand up to peer reviews and everything else. I also wonder about the raw data associated with this study and if it was really randomized and what the intensity of symptoms for those who did have COVID were.
We are going to have a lot of studies that say lots of things for the next 10 years. This virus is unique and our efforts to slow or stop it have been unique. We are going to find out that everything we did wasn't correct. There will be clearly ways we should have (in retrospect) have done things better or different.

I just hope we all realize that that doesn't diminish the efforts that have been and will occur to help slow or stop COVID. You can search to find a study that is trying to do something specific. It hasn't been peer reviewed, it hasn't gone through much of the scientific method, but it could be something, who knows. Finding a study that tries to do something specific is pretty easy actually.

Did you know Pfizer is saying their vaccine won't work forever? Is that because they want us to all pay them FOREVER to stay safe? Or is it because they understand that the efficacy of their drug will fade, as every vaccine does? I mean I guess it depends on what you want people to believe...
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
11,539
Points
52
There is a drive-thru COVID testing site that I go past on my way to the office in the mornings. When I've driven past it on my way in the last couple weeks (2 or 3x a week), there has been a line of about 25+ cars wrapped around the building and out to the street each morning after weeks and weeks of rarely seeing more than a single car there.

1630502596827.png
1630502724767.png


My above anecdote aside (and we all know the plural of anecdote is "data"), it looks like daily testing in SE Michigan is still relatively low compared to where we were for much of the rest of the year, but our positivity rate here in the region has been hovering between about 6.5% and 8.0% for the past month. That's a high enough positivity rate that we're probably still missing a bunch of actual cases.

At the start of August, the region had a 7-day average of 50 cases per 100,000. It's been steadily climbing and by the end of the month we were up to a 7-day average of 137 cases per 100,000. For comparison, from the middle of June to the middle of July, we were below 20 cases per 100,000 (and for a big chunk of that time we were below 10 cases per 100,000.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
21,216
Points
61
We are going to have a lot of studies that say lots of things for the next 10 years. This virus is unique and our efforts to slow or stop it have been unique. We are going to find out that everything we did wasn't correct. There will be clearly ways we should have (in retrospect) have done things better or different.

I just hope we all realize that that doesn't diminish the efforts that have been and will occur to help slow or stop COVID. You can search to find a study that is trying to do something specific. It hasn't been peer reviewed, it hasn't gone through much of the scientific method, but it could be something, who knows. Finding a study that tries to do something specific is pretty easy actually.

Did you know Pfizer is saying their vaccine won't work forever? Is that because they want us to all pay them FOREVER to stay safe? Or is it because they understand that the efficacy of their drug will fade, as every vaccine does? I mean I guess it depends on what you want people to believe...
I think it is even more than that and I foresee a day when this becomes like to flu shot where it needs to be renewed on an annual basis. I know that I personally intend to get the booster shot when it is available. I figure if I did have the early version of COVID and I am fully vaccinated plus the booster, I will be in an even better position to stay healthy.

I also realize that science does not always get it right the first time. I don't recall where I saw it but it said that good science is keeping going through all the failed tests to find something that works, and repeating it until it doesn't work anymore and then go through that process all over again. The Delta Variant is a great example of that. The Vaccine is better than 99% effective against the original COVID, but only 66% against Delta. Let's fix the future booster shots to bring it back up.
 

kjel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
12,702
Points
46
I'm still confused about what's Delta or not. Most of the tests just say whether you're positive for COVID or not; they don't test for the variant. So how do they really know? My understanding is that involves genome testing and not all places have that capability.
Most people don't know what variant of COVID they were infected with. Most states due genetic sequencing on a statistically relevant sample of positive tests and then determine which percentage of COVID cases are of a particular variant. New Jersey issues this report weekly (it does lag by a couple of weeks). The Delta variant was present in NJ in December 2020 but only comprised 19% of the samples tested, but in the 4 week period ending 8/14 Delta comprised 96.9% of the samples tested. https://www.nj.gov/health/cd/documents/topics/NCOV/COVID_19_Variant_Report_Week_2021_32.pdf
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
14,516
Points
57
At the end of business today, all city buildings will be closed to the public.

The decision was made due to an increase in cases (from 30 to 289 in a week) including most of the local HS football team.

We have 3 school districts in this county (Stupid I know). This summer, the school board for the big city instituted a mask mandate. The county district and the other city school district declared masks as optional. With the increases we've seen here, the county district just went with a mask mandate & the other city district (the one losing football players left & right) is holding a called meeting tomorrow to debate the topic. We'll see if they stand up & do the right thing.
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
15,937
Points
60
I'm still shocked and appalled that this debate still exists.
 
Top