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Cyburbia Death Match #3

Death match #3 : Habanero or Jordanb

  • Habanero kicks butt

    Votes: 15 75.0%
  • Jordanb kicks butt

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • I don't understand why you men like that Highlander movie so much.

    Votes: 3 15.0%

  • Total voters
    20
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Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
Downtown said:
Almost an unfair death match. Habanero has been around much longer to build her fan base. :)
Fans? I don't need no stinkin' fan! I got skills! :) Kidding, shot out too all my peeps across the Cyburbia network! LOL, too funny, Chet, too funny.
 

nerudite

Cyburbian
Messages
6,544
Points
30
Hmmmm... depends on the type of match. But I know that Hab is feisty, athletic and can hold her drink... so if it's drunken boxing, I'm voting for Hab.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Oh, I voted for Habanero. I figure she probably needs the self-esteem boost more than I do.

I mean, I work for a bureaucracy too, but at least I can take comfort in the knowledge that what I do actually benefits the people of my state.

It must be so hard being the modern equivalent to the person who makes sure that all of the citizens break their eggs on the right end.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
jordanb said:
Oh, I voted for Habanero. I figure she probably needs the self-esteem boost more than I do.

I mean, I work for a bureaucracy too, but at least I can take comfort in the knowledge that what I do actually benefits the people of my state.

It must be so hard being the modern equivalent to the person who makes sure that all of the citizens break their eggs on the right end.
Wow, you are a sad, little, pathetic, excuse for a man.

So planning doesn't benefit anyone? Really? Wow, does your back hurt, I mean, with your head so far up there I would figure you'd atleast have a good chiropractor. Go drink chlorine. Too bad your mother doesn't have the same Catholic veiws you do. When you have something intellegent to say, bring it.

Oh, but you are correct in one thing: "what I do actually benefits the people of my state" actually has some truth to it, we've got refuse technicians in AZ too,and they do benefit the State.
 
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jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
So planning doesn't benefit anyone?
If by "planning," you mean "keeping schools and hazmat sites away from eachother," then of course it's a good thing. But that's becoming less of a concern as industry continues to become cleaner.

If by "planning," you mean, "keeping this country from becoming a nation of identical fry pits and kitsch-filled auto-ghettos," then I think it'd be a great thing if it were actually succeding in doing that.

But if by "planning," you mean "keeping cities from 'being slowly
strangled by mixed uses of property,'*" like a modern-day Le Corbusier, then you can keep it.

Go drink chlorine.
Is that an approved use of my apartment or do I need a variance?

* Actual quote by Harry Chaddick who wrote the Chicago zoning laws in 1957.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
So you don't have any of your own intelligent material to write? You can only quote people and have them think for you? Lemming.
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
I will only participate and provide comment on this thread if the places being posted from are zoned for either adult entertainment uses, licensed premises, places of entertainment or special care homes.

If the posts occur from other zones this match would be illegal and we would have to call the zoning inspector.

I posted my serious response to this issue as OT in the bumper stickers thread.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
jordanb said:
I mean, I work for a bureaucracy too, but at least I can take comfort in the knowledge that what I do actually benefits the people of my state.
And what is it, exactly, that you do?

I have yet to see a state job that doesn't take twice as long and cost three times as much...
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
I actually started out feeling a bit sorry for jordanb until I read more of the thread. Habanero has allies and defenders not because she has been here longer, but because she is courteous, converses intelligently on professional questions, and entertains us in the more social posts. Jordanb has unfortunately marked his time here by showing how unenlighted he is when it comes to planning, and attacking others. Too bad. Most people can gain a lot here both professionally and personally.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
First of all, donk, this would have been significantly easier had you responded here. I'll reply to you here rather than in the offtopic thread to make things consistent.

Donk wrote:
Most of here are professionals (not that should make too much of a difference) who look at this place as a place to discuss, critique ideas and ask for help in a polite manner. If I wanted to be attacked for the stuff I administer I have a half dozen messages sitting on my desk to return.
I just reread my posts to the thread in question and I can not find a single one that would be considered rude within the mores established by the other posters on this board and taking into account that I was on the defensive for most of the thread, with the possible exception of my response to Chet, and the NIMBY statement which was clearly the result of a misunderstanding. My initial statement was terse, yes, but you are clearly reading something into it that I did not intend and I still do not understand if you consider it at all rude.

In fact, the last post was intended to be conciliatory. I was attempting to end my involvement in the argument as I could see that it was not at all in my interest to continue with it, and in doing so to soothe things over in an effort to put it behind me. It was never my intention to troll. In fact I was shocked at the response my post generated, and I never would have made it had I known what would become of it. I was honestly under the impression that Habanero was asking for help in how to interpret a regulation and that I might influence her in the direction I thought was best by making that post.

I must say that I am surprised and disappointed that that thread has generated nothing on this board except for a hatred of me by a few people, even after Lee Nellis made what I would think would be a good opener for a serious discussion. I might add that his post very eloquently made the argument I was awkwardly groping for throughout the thread.

Since that thread, however, I have received a torrent of vitriol and hostility from certain people on this board. I am heartened by the fact that, until this thread (which I will get to), it appeared to all be coming from a very small group of people, with varying degrees of tact. I'm not at all convinced that, until this thread, I have done anything that should reasonably garner the response I've gotten. Perhaps that's due to my neophyte status on this board and an inability on my part to propery guage how my responses are interpreted.

It would be similar to as if after reading "silicone snake oil" I started posting to IT groups and espousing the ideals of a single critic as if they where a universal truth. I doubt I'd be welcome there very long.
First of all, I've not read a single critic, as the reading list I posted on my introduction shows, I've read dozens of different authors on the subject and, most importantly, seen the difference between good and bad planning firsthand. In fact it was that firsthand experience that caused me to be interested in urban planning at all.

Secondly, while Computer Science is a very complicated and intricate discipline, it is so full of bullshit and hype that I'm sure everything in that book is true and then some. You would be perfectly legitimate to complain that software is buggy and overhyped in just about any forum on the internet. CS is a very immature science that could benefit greatly, I think, from a user base who demanded better results than it currently produces.

As for baiting people about religion and such, that is against one of the rules of the group.
I assume you're implying that I "religiously baited" someone. I think I should explain my situation a bit. I'm not a religious person. In fact, I consider my beliefs to be agnostic. I am, however, a baptized Catholic. My family (to whom I'm very close as Catholics tend to be) is Catholic. I know very many Catholic people. I am exposed to attitudes towards Catholics routinely that are nothing less than prejudiced. I see jokes made about Catholics that, applied to any other religion, would be classified as bigotry. They are by the way completely inconsistent with the reality of Catholicism. The vast majority of Catholics I know are intelligent, rational, free thinking people. I have no doubt that Huston did not mean his joke to be scurrilous, but that's exactly what it was, and as a Catholic I felt obligated to respond to it. I've made jokes I've regretted too, and I bear him no ill will for making it, but it was reprehensible nonetheless.

Now, when I saw Chet start this thread I understood it to be an immature attempt to "bait" me. I had every intention of just ignoring it. As it progressed though, the cajoling intensified, particularly from the other people from that small group who I mentioned earlier, so I responded. I was intentionaly very, very harsh in my response. I freely admit that my response was very mean, and had the desired effect with the anger it generated. I reasoned at the time that if people were willing to bate me they have to be prepared for what they're going to catch. In restrospect, it was a horrible way for me to deal with the problem and I'm not at all proud of it. I wish that I'd been big enough to ignore this thread altogether. Take this as an apology for the posts I've made on this thread, they were completely over the top.

So that's where I stand. My time on this board so far has given me a much more well-rounded understanding of planning than my readings until now. I know I don't want to be a planner now, for one thing. I also think that if I want to work for positive change, I'll be on the opposite side of the table from planners as often as not. At the same time, I've enjoyed many of the threads on board. Many of the people here have posted great analysis of issues discussed, and I would like to be able to stick around. Unfortunatly, this board has not been at all enjoyable since I caught the ire of that aforementioned group. I'd like to open this up as an invitation to them to "let bygones be bygones" as it were and just understand that we have a difference of opinion. I certianly know now not to make posts questioning zoning practices with which I disagree to this board.
 
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jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Mastiff - Currently I'm working on importing all of our employment data into GIS. The Illinois MPOs are very interested in it.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
olive branch, jordanb...

jordanb said:
I certianly know now not to make posts questioning zoning practices with which I disagree to this board.
Before I extend it though - - I would respect everything you said had it not started out by insulting Donk by referring to him as 'dink'.

All else aside, I think I've made at least three attempts to engage you in real debate and every time you flame out or troll for the response that you ultimately get. I think the moderators here try not to be clique-ish. We want a broad range of users and viewpoints. We want some polite disagreement. Any board would be boring if everyone was a clone.

You are welcome to continue on with us, jordanb. Keep in mind that the tone and inflection of you speech does not carry though in a thread post, and until the daily posters get to know your style and approach to issues, these things can sting.

As for deathmatch, consider it a bit of an honor. There have been 2 deathmatch threads before it and they were all good fun. So, 6 out of 500+ registered users, not a bad first month here, eh?
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
That was a typo that I fixed. I'd be suprised if it were the only one in that message.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
jordanb said:
First of all, donk, this would have been significantly easier had you responded here. I'll reply to you here rather than in the offtopic thread to make things consistent.

I just reread my posts to the thread in question and I can not find a single one that would be considered rude within the mores established by the other posters on this board and taking into account that I was on the defensive for most of the thread, with the possible exception of my response to Chet, and the NIMBY statement which was clearly the result of a misunderstanding. My initial statement was terse, yes, but you are clearly reading something into it that I did not intend and I still do not understand if you consider it at all rude.
You started with a smart ass attitude and still continue with one. You wrote we did not give it the thought it deserves, seeing as this is my JOB, I think I do give it the thought it deserves. You however, are not in this feild and if you cannot understand that, as a planner, I take this job seriously and posted here to get other opinions and exerptise of fellow planers you are sorely mistaken. If you had wanted to ask why it was an issue or ask for clarification, fine, but do not fiegn victim status and deny you posted "WHO CARES?!?" It was not a misunderstanding, you did not ever attempt to understand, had you however, asked what my role was, it couldve saved you the poor addumtions you made. I state again, you need a very good chiropractor.

jordanb said:

In fact, the last post was intended to be conciliatory. I was attempting to end my involvement in the argument as I could see that it was not at all in my interest to continue with it, and in doing so to soothe things over in an effort to put it behind me. It was never my intention to troll. In fact I was shocked at the response my post generated, and I never would have made it had I known what would become of it. I was honestly under the impression that Habanero was asking for help in how to interpret a regulation and that I might influence her in the direction I thought was best by making that post.
You did not know who I was, instead of asking who I was (oh what did you say, something along the lines of pissed off neighbour) you ASSumed who I was. And no, I do not believe you tried to nicely say, "I don't agree", you said (may I paraphrase?) "Who cares, it's not like she's smelting iron." I understand if you do not know enough to fill a pint about planning, but do not suggest that incompatable land uses should be a "who cares" matter. I care, and for that matter, neighbors care- incompatable land uses have often shown to reduce property values, and if you don't think that matters, keep renting.
jordanb said:

I must say that I am surprised and disappointed that that thread has generated nothing on this board except for a hatred of me by a few people, even after Lee Nellis made what I would think would be a good opener for a serious discussion. I might add that his post very eloquently made the argument I was awkwardly groping for throughout the thread.
If you are dissappointed, think of how you portrayed yourself. The only person you should be dissappointed in is yourself in that you posted here and instead of posting in a nice, pleasant manner, you trolled the very thread I was serious about. Instead of getting helpful answers it ended up being about you and your uneducated ideas. I pity a city that would hire you with your attitude. Furthermore, I did ask if you did not have something intelligent to offer, to offer nothing at all. You were on the defensive because you took that stance with your opening line.
jordanb said:

Since that thread, however, I have received a torrent of vitriol and hostility from certain people on this board. I am heartened by the fact that, until this thread (which I will get to), it appeared to all be coming from a very small group of people, with varying degrees of tact. I'm not at all convinced that, until this thread, I have done anything that should reasonably garner the response I've gotten. Perhaps that's due to my neophyte status on this board and an inability on my part to propery guage how my responses are interpreted.
Ah yes, www.dictionary.com has a thesaurus option, must remember to go there when I want to sound eloquent, or would you prefer one of the following: articulate, expressive, facund, grandiloquent, or well-expressed? As far as who this small group was, well, I suppose there is a group of us who are more open with our dislike for trolling behaviour. However, I would be hard pressed to think for one moment that you are a victim in all of this. If you can't handle the heat, stay away from the fire. It is not your neophyte status, I can think of several "neophytes" that have not brought this on, nor posted with the same disrespect as you have, they made intelligent posts, polite posts, non-trolling posts.
jordanb said:

First of all, I've not read a single critic, as the reading list I posted on my introduction shows, I've read dozens of different authors on the subject and, most importantly, seen the difference between good and bad planning firsthand. In fact it was that firsthand experience that caused me to be interested in urban planning at all.
Reading is different than practicing. Show me, don't tell me. I would love to see you stand up to a director of any Planning Department and hear you say, "who cares". How well do you think you'd do on your six month probation review? I think you may be on the recieving end of a pink slip of paper. It's not all about you, Jordumb.
jordanb said:

Secondly, while Computer Science is a very complicated and intricate discipline, it is so full of bullshit and hype that I'm sure everything in that book is true and then some. You would be perfectly legitimate to complain that software is buggy and overhyped in just about any forum on the internet. CS is a very immature science that could benefit greatly, I think, from a user base who demanded better results than it currently produces.
It was an ANALOGY, but I digress.

jordanb said:
I assume you're implying that I "religiously baited" someone. I think I should explain my situation a bit. I'm not a religious person. In fact, I consider my beliefs to be agnostic. I am, however, a baptized Catholic. My family (to whom I'm very close as Catholics tend to be) is Catholic. I know very many Catholic people. I am exposed to attitudes towards Catholics routinely that are nothing less than prejudiced. I see jokes made about Catholics that, applied to any other religion, would be classified as bigotry. They are by the way completely inconsistent with the reality of Catholicism. The vast majority of Catholics I know are intelligent, rational, free thinking people. I have no doubt that Huston did not mean his joke to be scurrilous, but that's exactly what it was, and as a Catholic I felt obligated to respond to it. I've made jokes I've regretted too, and I bear him no ill will for making it, but it was reprehensible nonetheless.
Great, glad to have your $0.02 on that one. *whew* Couldn't have gone without that for another 1,000 years or so. Your topic of religion is about as touchy as summer camp at the Vatican. Keep it off of Cyburbia, it is one of the rules.


Originally posted by jordanb

Now, when I saw Chet start this thread I understood it to be an immature attempt to "bait" me. I had every intention of just ignoring it. As it progressed though, the cajoling intensified, particularly from the other people from that small group who I mentioned earlier, so I responded. I was intentionaly very, very harsh in my response. I freely admit that my response was very mean, and had the desired effect with the anger it generated. I reasoned at the time that if people were willing to bate me they have to be prepared for what they're going to catch. In restrospect, it was a horrible way for me to deal with the problem and I'm not at all proud of it. I wish that I'd been big enough to ignore this thread altogether. Take this as an apology for the posts I've made on this thread, they were completely over the top.
[/QUOTE]

You said it yourself, you are a neophyte. It was done in jest. Although, I'm amazed that you attacked me, not the person who started the thread. Is it that you do not like me, Jordumb? Otherwise, why would you have so ruthlessly gone after me when I was simply having fun. Did you not see the "too funny, Chet, too funny?" As you can see I was not then, nor have I ever been shaking in my boots as to what you were going to dish out. Like I said, bring it. I wish you had been big enough to ignore it as well, but that's why I pointed out what a small simple minded man you are. You can dish, but cannot take it. Great, so if it gets tough, pack up your toys and go play with yourself. Center your chi if needed.

Originally posted by jordanb

So that's where I stand. My time on this board so far has given me a much more well-rounded understanding of planning than my readings until now. I know I don't want to be a planner now, for one thing. I also think that if I want to work for positive change, I'll be on the opposite side of the table from planners as often as not. At the same time, I've enjoyed many of the threads on board. Many of the people here have posted great analysis of issues discussed, and I would like to be able to stick around. Unfortunatly, this board has not been at all enjoyable since I caught the ire of that aforementioned group. I'd like to open this up as an invitation to them to "let bygones be bygones" as it were and just understand that we have a difference of opinion. I certianly know now not to make posts questioning zoning practices with which I disagree to this board.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, my opinion is that polite banter is great,hell debate me if you want, but don't post some smart ass remark and run. Your opinion is????I'm still not sure. Oh, that's right, to take the defensive as soon as your beliefs are questioned. To post rude, thoughtless comments and tell a group of planners we did not give your posts the thought they deserved, well, that's not really "playing nice". So you got sand thrown in your face, suck it up. There are different ways of questioning zoning practices, perhaps you should use your handy word of the day calendar when you make those posts as well.
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
To JordanB

The reason I posted in the "wrong" message was that I read from the bottom up, (ie last post first) at that time there were comments being made about you in that thread as it degenerated into this one.

I just double checked the reading list from your intro, most of the books you listed (Kunstler, Jacobs) while written by respected people (for the most part) are not so much planning books but comments on pop culture and society, placed in a planning context (I have read most of what you have listed there).

As for religion, we don't play that game, the few comments that have been made in the past where innocuous and not meant to really annoy or questions others beliefs.

Final comment, you can't win this one, as I stated before we all deal with people like you every day, at least once and have legal arguments for anything you can say. It is always good to have righteous indignation on your side.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Habanero - Actually neophyte is a commonly used word in some parts. I did have to look scurrilous up to make sure it meant what I thought it meant.

donk - No harm done on the offtopic bit.
 

giff57

Corn Burning Fool
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
5,408
Points
32
jordanb said:
Mastiff - Currently I'm working on importing all of our employment data into GIS. The Illinois MPOs are very interested in it.
Yes, that is "public sector" work but..... humor me a minute Jordan.

You are not considering the "people" side of planning. Put your self in this position:

A person walks in to your office and demands action because their is a day care next door. The person says that at times of the day the street is blocked with SUVs and mini vans dropping off and picking up kids. And to top it off this person works the night shift and cannot sleep because of the noise. They lay a photocopy of the city code that prohibits this activity in front of you. What do you do Jordon?

A. Tell them the code is "stupid" and refuse to help the person.

B. Dig through your extensive library of planning theory to find an answer.

C. Call your statistics prof and calculate the odds that the person will just go away.

D. Excuse your self and stay in the john until they leave to find your boss.

Please consider we have all had this happen. It is real easy to find flaws in most everything we do. It's another thing when a real person is looking you in the eye......

My $.02
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
jordanb said:
Habanero - Actually neophyte is a commonly used word in some parts. I did have to look scurrilous up to make sure it meant what I thought it meant.

donk - No harm done on the offtopic bit.
ooo, you post with such vitriol. Your word of the day should be "concede".
 
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