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Cyburbia: the pro-urbanist self love society
- Thread starter Dan
- Start date
- Messages
- 7,649
- Points
- 29
Oh, how funny.
Earlier this year, in a homeschooling forum I am in, someone posted an excerpt from a different forum where they were bashing "us". Same basic idea: painting us as all "agreeing" on a particular approach. It sparked an interesting conversation in which those of various "camps" each spoke up in turn with their feeling that the place was "dominated" by the "opposing" philosophy and it wasn't a "friendly" environment for their approach. It was really quite funny but, since then, the place has grown much more in its ability to speak with diversity in mind and an awareness that we all take a different approach and it isn't a matter of "right" or "wrong", but of "what is right FOR ME".
You need a certain amount of "agreement" in order to have a conversation at all. You need a certain amount of "disagreement" (or diversity of experience and viewpoints) in order for those conversations to be enriching experiences and not just "me talking to myself" kinds of experiences. The tension between these two opposing needs and the search for a healthy balance is an ongoing struggle for the lifespan of any group, online or off.
New people often do not ask a question in a way that the group can readily relate to (this is true in all group situations, not particular to this forum) and the fact that they are new also means that most folks do not have any context for the individual. Meaning is highly dependent upon context and the internet strips us of much of the way that we convey meaning. The actual words we choose are a very small portion of the message. Voice tone, body language, etc, convey most of our meaning. And knowing someone well increases the likelihood that you will fully understand what they mean, including subtleties that will be lost on the casual reader who isn't familiar with the person speaking, the context they are speaking from, etc.
When new people do not recieve a "good" answer to their inquiry, they often do not try to elaborate. I often write at great length to try to explain fully what I wish to convey -- and then I get told to "shut up". I am fairly thick-skinned, but a lot of people are not and will not elaborate because they have seen someone like me be given a hard time and they just can't face it -- or don't think it is worth the trouble, or whatever. The very first interaction that an individual has with a group is formative of their opinion of the group and they often do not give "second chances". If they feel they got a raw deal in response to their very first question, they never ask another and may unsub and go someplace else and tell others about their "bad" experience. You cannot control that -- that will happen sometimes, no matter how well-run a forum is. You can do things to affect the percentages but no one is "perfect" 100% of the time and there are people out there that won't be happy even if you were perfect.
Additionally, when someone says something like "one poor girl asked x and got .." bad advice (in essence), that criticism comes from the misguided notion that this forum has an obligation to give answers. Dan, if you wanted to offer to "give answers", you would be a consultant and charge for your services. Your mission here, in Cyburbia, is to hook people up. That results in lots of opportunities for people to get answers but it is not remotely a promise to supply answers to all comers.
Take it for what it is: an indication that Cyburbia is successful enough to be both known and envied. Mae West used to say there was no such thing as "bad publicity" -- her point was that if people are talking about you, you are famous. And in her business, name recognition was everything. But, to some extent, that is true for *any* public entity. Additionally, you really can't know what the reaction is to people talking bad about you. He may be someone everyone thinks is a jerk and people may surf over here to check what he is saying, judge for themselves, and go back and tear his argument to pieces. Or say nothing to him but ultimately join Cyburbia. It may be a long time before the reaction to something like that can be even partially surmised.
When I went through such horrible drug withdrawal and crashed and burned so very badly in a public way, I discovered that a lot of people had compassion for me and I made some of the best friends I have ever had. I also discovered that I earned a lot of respect from people for my willingness to sincerely apologize when I inadvertently offended someone and ... a bunch of other stuff. Originally, I figured everyone would simply hate me. And some people do seem to still bear a grudge from things I said more than a year ago (there was recently another call to have me removed, from the same person who made the first request, sigh -- I don't know whether or not to even try to mend fences with this individual but I would set it straight, if I could). But, for the most part, I simply find myself being thankful for my experience with trying to communicate with all the doctors who had never heard of my obscure disorder and, understandably, figured I was simply a Nut: I joke that they cured my serious problem with being Thin Skinned. If I am to have any kind of career dealing with "the public", I needed to be cured of that problem at least as badly as I needed my health problems adequately addressed. It hurt deeply at the time, but I sincerely count it as a "gift" these days.
Well, you know me: I could probably go on but I probably bored you to tears a few pages back.
So: Soyanara from "the poster child for excessive length".
Earlier this year, in a homeschooling forum I am in, someone posted an excerpt from a different forum where they were bashing "us". Same basic idea: painting us as all "agreeing" on a particular approach. It sparked an interesting conversation in which those of various "camps" each spoke up in turn with their feeling that the place was "dominated" by the "opposing" philosophy and it wasn't a "friendly" environment for their approach. It was really quite funny but, since then, the place has grown much more in its ability to speak with diversity in mind and an awareness that we all take a different approach and it isn't a matter of "right" or "wrong", but of "what is right FOR ME".
You need a certain amount of "agreement" in order to have a conversation at all. You need a certain amount of "disagreement" (or diversity of experience and viewpoints) in order for those conversations to be enriching experiences and not just "me talking to myself" kinds of experiences. The tension between these two opposing needs and the search for a healthy balance is an ongoing struggle for the lifespan of any group, online or off.
New people often do not ask a question in a way that the group can readily relate to (this is true in all group situations, not particular to this forum) and the fact that they are new also means that most folks do not have any context for the individual. Meaning is highly dependent upon context and the internet strips us of much of the way that we convey meaning. The actual words we choose are a very small portion of the message. Voice tone, body language, etc, convey most of our meaning. And knowing someone well increases the likelihood that you will fully understand what they mean, including subtleties that will be lost on the casual reader who isn't familiar with the person speaking, the context they are speaking from, etc.
When new people do not recieve a "good" answer to their inquiry, they often do not try to elaborate. I often write at great length to try to explain fully what I wish to convey -- and then I get told to "shut up". I am fairly thick-skinned, but a lot of people are not and will not elaborate because they have seen someone like me be given a hard time and they just can't face it -- or don't think it is worth the trouble, or whatever. The very first interaction that an individual has with a group is formative of their opinion of the group and they often do not give "second chances". If they feel they got a raw deal in response to their very first question, they never ask another and may unsub and go someplace else and tell others about their "bad" experience. You cannot control that -- that will happen sometimes, no matter how well-run a forum is. You can do things to affect the percentages but no one is "perfect" 100% of the time and there are people out there that won't be happy even if you were perfect.
Additionally, when someone says something like "one poor girl asked x and got .." bad advice (in essence), that criticism comes from the misguided notion that this forum has an obligation to give answers. Dan, if you wanted to offer to "give answers", you would be a consultant and charge for your services. Your mission here, in Cyburbia, is to hook people up. That results in lots of opportunities for people to get answers but it is not remotely a promise to supply answers to all comers.
Take it for what it is: an indication that Cyburbia is successful enough to be both known and envied. Mae West used to say there was no such thing as "bad publicity" -- her point was that if people are talking about you, you are famous. And in her business, name recognition was everything. But, to some extent, that is true for *any* public entity. Additionally, you really can't know what the reaction is to people talking bad about you. He may be someone everyone thinks is a jerk and people may surf over here to check what he is saying, judge for themselves, and go back and tear his argument to pieces. Or say nothing to him but ultimately join Cyburbia. It may be a long time before the reaction to something like that can be even partially surmised.
When I went through such horrible drug withdrawal and crashed and burned so very badly in a public way, I discovered that a lot of people had compassion for me and I made some of the best friends I have ever had. I also discovered that I earned a lot of respect from people for my willingness to sincerely apologize when I inadvertently offended someone and ... a bunch of other stuff. Originally, I figured everyone would simply hate me. And some people do seem to still bear a grudge from things I said more than a year ago (there was recently another call to have me removed, from the same person who made the first request, sigh -- I don't know whether or not to even try to mend fences with this individual but I would set it straight, if I could). But, for the most part, I simply find myself being thankful for my experience with trying to communicate with all the doctors who had never heard of my obscure disorder and, understandably, figured I was simply a Nut: I joke that they cured my serious problem with being Thin Skinned. If I am to have any kind of career dealing with "the public", I needed to be cured of that problem at least as badly as I needed my health problems adequately addressed. It hurt deeply at the time, but I sincerely count it as a "gift" these days.
Well, you know me: I could probably go on but I probably bored you to tears a few pages back.
So: Soyanara from "the poster child for excessive length".
Last edited:
Chet
Cyburbian Emeritus
- Messages
- 10,623
- Points
- 34
OK I have a confession to make. I do secretly agree with everything posted here. And its not just me. Why, this morning I heard the news that Jeff and jordanb have eloped to Vermont to complete their civil union. Its a love fest for the millenium, I tell you.
That said, what a sardonic a-hole. Hey folks, we all have his email addy now, lets get to work...
That said, what a sardonic a-hole. Hey folks, we all have his email addy now, lets get to work...
Cardinal
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 10,080
- Points
- 34
Just a little delusional, isn't he? Whether on planning topics or in the FAC, there is a great deal of dissent here. That is one of hte things that keeps the forums interesting. As for responding to somebody's planning-related inquiry, hey, if Victoria has relevant information, go there!
mental masturbation of mutual admiration . . . so that's why I keep coming back.
Cyburbia attracts more practicing planners who often ask more work related questions that strict academics couldn't be bothered with. Its not full of blowhards who are intent on infinitely criticizing every statement someone makes to boost their internet debating skills. People can disagree here without it becoming an neo-post-whatever-intellectual pissing match.
He's right about one thing - we're all in agreement that he's a tool.
Cyburbia attracts more practicing planners who often ask more work related questions that strict academics couldn't be bothered with. Its not full of blowhards who are intent on infinitely criticizing every statement someone makes to boost their internet debating skills. People can disagree here without it becoming an neo-post-whatever-intellectual pissing match.
He's right about one thing - we're all in agreement that he's a tool.
Tranplanner
maudit anglais
- Messages
- 7,917
- Points
- 36
The horror! The horror!
I'm not going to take the bait, seeing as I was the person referred to above. Hey - I also referenced ITE!
- Messages
- 7,649
- Points
- 29
Hey, I actively avoid the "love fest". For example, when Tranplanner said "cough -- it's a Canadian company -- cough", I refrained from sucking up by jumping in there with "hey, everyone knows CANADA invented GIS!!!"
There is no love fest. We all hate each other. Have a terrible day. I am going to go get some sleep, at long last.
There is no love fest. We all hate each other. Have a terrible day. I am going to go get some sleep, at long last.
Richmond Jake
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
- Messages
- 18,313
- Points
- 44
I think I referenced Victoria's Secret once.Tranplanner said:
GeogPlanner
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 1,433
- Points
- 25
crap...i missed this discussion. time to seach the board.
and apparently, you should just give out info without sending someone to another source...i guess that whole concept of "best practices" is so passe...
Rumpy Tunanator
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 4,473
- Points
- 25
[Robert Cote] I am so mad that this forum is responsible for killing my kitten Mr.Weebles [/Robert Cote]
transplanner - i can't believe you tried to brainwash me with your self aggrandizing delusional smart growth stuff. I read all that Todd Litman rhetoric - but your plan didn't work. I found these very useful website:
http://www.taxpayersleague.org/pdf/TransBrochure.pdf
http://www.gppf.org/transportation_content.html
and now I understand how to think about road capacity.
stop trying to indoctrinate planners into the cyburbia cult.
http://www.taxpayersleague.org/pdf/TransBrochure.pdf
http://www.gppf.org/transportation_content.html
and now I understand how to think about road capacity.
stop trying to indoctrinate planners into the cyburbia cult.
- Messages
- 7,649
- Points
- 29
But the blue pill doesn't match my Decor. What other colors can I choose from?