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Density

Howard Roark

Cyburbian
Messages
276
Points
10
Very true, amazing the origional purpose was about "saving your neck" The walled city and the density it produced was a pretty pragmatic answer to the political realities of the day. I bet the origional designers would be amazed at our romantic notions about quaint walled villages.
 

boilerplater

Cyburbian
Messages
916
Points
21
I'll retire there...

I bet its Croatia. I'm going to live in such a place someday, and spend my evenings strolling the streets and the waterfront.

The pic of the smaller town with the surrounding countryside dramatically illustrates just how you get more open space with density.
 

ablarc

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
713
Points
20
Boilerplater, Croatia is a pretty good guess. Everyone knows about Dubrovnik, which also projects as a peninsula, and most people are familiar with Split; and there are a host of others in what must be one of the world’s great beauty spots.

But: no cigar.

Here, from neighboring Montenegro, is tiny Sveti Stefan:



Jresta, Italy is green enough. Here is Monteriggioni, looking not so green:







Not Italy, not Byzantium, same principle.
 

boilerplater

Cyburbian
Messages
916
Points
21
Then I'm inclined to move west a little to...Portugal.

Doesn't Lisbon have a lot of limestone buildings?
 

jresta

Cyburbian
Messages
1,474
Points
23
boilerplater said:
The pic of the smaller town with the surrounding countryside dramatically illustrates just how you get more open space with density.
but then you'd have to share that countryside with *gasp* your neighbors. It wouldn't be your own private fiefdom. y tu sabe que socialismo no es el camino.
 
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ablarc

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
713
Points
20
The pattern of daily life in all three smaller localities was initially the same: every day you leave the village or town by going through the gate into the surrounding area, where you work. In two cases this means the fields; in the third the field is the sea, because you are a fisherman.

Actually, Sveti Stefan has been converted into a jet-set hotel for the likes of Michael Jackson, and Monteriggioni is now part resort hotel and part farm community (a more recent aerial would reveal the swimming pool). Years ago when I was there before its partial conversion, the animals came home at night along with their owners to sleep in those large back yards. The place was full of goats, donkeys, horses and cows.

Howard Roark, the walls were not just to keep out intruders; they kept the city from spilling out in suburban fashion to gobble up valuable farmland --and they provided the community with concrete identity. It is interesting that the two functions of city walls collapsed at the same moment; in the late nineteenth century, modern artillery rendered walls useless and the streetcar’s invention made possible the suburb. Hence there was a rush to demolish city walls. Vienna’s Ringstrasse is only the most famous instance.
 

H

Cyburbian
Messages
2,850
Points
24
Although I completely like the model of dense urban and sparse rural, I must say that the first thought that popped in my head when reading this thread was that this must be the origin of the 'gated community'. ;) :)
 

Howard Roark

Cyburbian
Messages
276
Points
10
ablarc said:
Howard Roark, the walls were not just to keep out intruders; they kept the city from spilling out in suburban fashion to gobble up valuable farmland --and they provided the community with concrete identity. It is interesting that the two functions of city walls collapsed at the same moment; in the late nineteenth century, modern artillery rendered walls useless and the streetcar’s invention made possible the suburb. Hence there was a rush to demolish city walls. Vienna’s Ringstrasse is only the most famous instance.
Some of the walled cities have faired better than others, York was well preserved even though it spilled from its gates, looking at plans of London and Paris, no visible signs of the walls exist. But a friend pointed out the last remnants that were incorperated in to surounding buildings in London. There are even a few pieces of the Roman wall left.

Sometimes the walls fall under the rules of uninteded consequences in todays society. I spent 3 months in grad school working with the Castel & Leon Gov. on trying to figure out how to get people back into the old city of Segovia. It is a striking place, the old citadel looks like a ship plowing into the plains, it had a great plaza in the walled portion, and a massive 2000 year old aquaduct that was a UN WHS. despite all of this the housing was 60% vacant, the housing that was there was quite nice though.

For a varitiy of reasons the Segovians loved the "new" city that spread out below the aquaduct on the flatlands. After surveying, historical research and space syntax analysis our determination was that the fully intact wall (which gave all of segovia its charm) was also seen as its biggest drawback for living by the locals.
They felt to "cut off" from the many jobs and shopping that were in the new town, space syntax and morphology studies provided the same evidence.

Our solution was multi-pronged but basically consisted of making the old walled city more accessible w/o destroying the character of the city, along with intergrating more of those services desired by the popluce into the old city.

Was an interesting problem, we would have never thought of the walls as a determent prior to the start.
 

ablarc

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
713
Points
20
"Our solution was multi-pronged but basically consisted of making the old walled city more accessible w/o destroying the character of the city, along with intergrating more of those services desired by the popluce into the old city."

Interesting; what exactly did you do to make it more accessible?
 

Howard Roark

Cyburbian
Messages
276
Points
10
ablarc said:
"Our solution was multi-pronged but basically consisted of making the old walled city more accessible w/o destroying the character of the city, along with intergrating more of those services desired by the popluce into the old city."

Interesting; what exactly did you do to make it more accessible?
Frist, we offerd several possible scenarios which "reintergration" could take place, some were more intrusive than others, the idea was that we could offer a level of self determination for the locals.

1- we went back to history, Segovia had 6 gates at one time today 3 are open to traffic, on was closed off completely, we open up all, 4 vehicular 2 pedestrain, but more important than opening those gates was to provide connectors to the feeder roads below, thus increasing the permiability of the existing morhpology.

2- removed some 19th century (it was architecturally unimpresive) housing to open up access to the city on both sides of the aquaduct. The historic gate side was already open, the other side was a shear drop to a dead space below.

3. provided designs schemes for a vertical lift. 3 different systems one completely concealed in the hill, another that climbed the hill, a third that intergrated a tower and a bridge on axis w/ on of the lesser existing gates (thereby turning it into a major entrance)

4. Entirely shutting the old city down to traffic, intergrating a fixed wheeled trolly system instead, which would work much bettter on the wonky mideval streets. This had the added advantage of connecting to the new Ave station (arriving in 2007)

5. Open up the wall. Although the wall is intact, it was built upon in the late 19th century and early 20th, alot of what was built was pretty nice stuff too, you were able to follow the wall for a while but then had to exit to a side street and pick it up later.. so after an exhustive survey of the "wall buildings" we developed a syetem by which tenants at "wall level" could be bought out, or partially bought out..and then demolish and "open up" a 12' wide corridor that would complete the "wall loop" thus allowing for increased circulation, conectivity and views, while maintaining the 19th century add-ons and providing new mixed use, as we determined that the resulting reconditioned 19th space would make great adaptive reuse for retail in an established residentail district.

The scenarios were set up to be intergrated w/ each other to varying degrees or to stand on there own. There were also, of course, other specifics dealing w/ economics, implementation, the Spanish legal system yada, yada, yada...
 

ablarc

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
713
Points
20
Howard, that all sounds pretty enlightened.

How much of that has been implemented?

Do you have pics of the trolleys? Do you have maps?
 

Glasshouse

Cyburbian
Messages
120
Points
6
WOW! Those are some intresting pics there clint.(albarc)

I'd be intrested in knowing how old the structures are.

And here I thought my remod program covered all the bases. :-}

Bob
 

ablarc

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
713
Points
20
Bob, Provence and the Riviera are full of such perched towns. They are almost all built on the backbones of ridges, which comprise the main street. All cross streets rise towards the spine, like ribs.

Most of the houses in these towns date from the late middle ages. I lived for a carefree month in one such house, built around 1450. It was three stories high on the main street side and plunged four stories down a cliff at the rear, making it seven stories in all. The lower four floors were superimposed masonry vaults, and the upper three stories were heavy timber enclosed by rubble walls--exactly like the houses in the photos. The interior was a cool oasis in the 100 degree heat, and the front door height was five feet with a bulkhead to step over. This allowed a single stalwart man with an axe to keep out an army.

This was without any competition the best place I have ever lived. The name of the town was Haut-de-Cagnes; the one in the pictures is St. Paul-de-Vence.

The blonde in the photo is French.
 
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Howard Roark

Cyburbian
Messages
276
Points
10
ablarc said:
Howard, that all sounds pretty enlightened.

How much of that has been implemented?

Do you have pics of the trolleys? Do you have maps?
Thanks, it was a fun project and I was pretty happy w/ the results.

I am not sure how much is being considered, all the ideas were presented in Spain about 4 months after the project conclusion (two years ago). I missed that presentation and need to contact my old tutor to find out whats up.

I have the document on disk, but alas, all nonesential material lays waiting in storage since I got back from the UK, till I buy a place anyway.

We suggested a fairly sleek concept for the trolly/tram system taking a clue from what they did in Lyon France, and a narrow gauge system like Amsterdam for the tighter mideval old city.
 

Glasshouse

Cyburbian
Messages
120
Points
6
Howard Roark said:
Thanks, it was a fun project and I was pretty happy w/ the results.

I am not sure how much is being considered, all the ideas were presented in Spain about 4 months after the project conclusion (two years ago). I missed that presentation and need to contact my old tutor to find out whats up.

I have the document on disk, but alas, all nonesential material lays waiting in storage since I got back from the UK, till I buy a place anyway.

We suggested a fairly sleek concept for the trolly/tram system taking a clue from what they did in Lyon France, and a narrow gauge system like Amsterdam for the tighter mideval old city.

Buy a place Howard?

Why not build one?

Did I mention I'm very crafty with stone wood and glass? :-D

Bob
 

Howard Roark

Cyburbian
Messages
276
Points
10
Glasshouse said:
Buy a place Howard?

Why not build one?

Did I mention I'm very crafty with stone wood and glass? :-D

Bob
Could be a possibility Bob, I would need to find a good lot that is "no developer strings attatched" which is hard to do.
 
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