el Guapo Rant #7 - U.S. athletes told to cool it at Olympics - Contains the F bomb

[el Guapo]

NEW YORK — American athletes have been warned not to wave the U.S. flag during their medal celebrations at this summer's Olympic Games in Athens, for fear of provoking crowd hostility and harming the country's already-battered public image.
The spectacle of victorious athletes grabbing a national flag and parading it around the stadium is a familiar part of international sporting competition, but U.S. Olympic officials have ordered their 550-strong team to exercise restraint and avoid any jingoistic behavior....

Read the rest of the story

Well, old el Guapo says the US Olympic Officials need to stick this directive right up their apologist assess. The day we have to go to some **** hole like Greece and apologize for being ourselves is the day I head to the hills with my bikes and my guns.

Did the God Dammed ****ing Russians apologize and sneak into the Moscow Olympics after they invaded Afghanistan on a pretext? Did the freaking Chinese apologize for Tiananmen before they host the next set of games?

Listen the **** up: AMERICA DOESN’T HAVE A DAMED THING TO APPOLIOGIZE FOR. NOT ONE GOOD GOD DAMMED THING.

 

[Michele Zone]

two words eG: De Caf :-D

 

[pete-rock]

Whether or not U.S. athletes should tone down the flag-waving, I could care less.

However, if I were a world-class American athlete, I'd have second thoughts about going to Athens -- as my Dad would say, a hop, skip and a jump from the Middle East -- for the Olympics. Witness the recent defections from the USA basketball "Dream Team" -- Kobe, Shaq, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Tim Duncan -- they've all turned it down, and being in Athens played a role.

 

[el Guapo]

Cute MZ but I'm "defend the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic" pissed beyond belief right now. If anything, now is the time we should be flying the colors and letting the world know we can take a few punches and still retain our pride and belief in who we are. We are in a war for our survival as a nation, a people, and as a democracy. The war in Afghanistan is just. The war in Iraq is just as just, and is a result of the failure of the UN and the Franco-Pacifistas and their spinelessness. The rest of the world failed the people of Iraq as they continue to do! Great Britian excluded.

Folks it is time to say it as it is: Arab-Street-Islam (not PBS made-pretty academic Islam) is not a religion of peace. It is a religion that looks the other way when it is convenient. Arab-Street-Islam and western democracy have proven to be incompatible (Turkey is not an example). We need to come out and say it as a nation. We need to contain Islam just like we did Communism. If we don't fight the virus that is Arab-Street-Islam there in the Middle East we will be fighting it here.

Arab-Street-Islam makes no place in its world for you liberal freethinking lovers of all mankind either. Ask yourself who is more likely to be tolerant of a same sex couple living next door to them, Imam Zawahiri or a Missouri Southern Baptist?

Who is more likely to look the other way when he notices a young woman getting it on with a man who is not her husband, Imam Zawahiri or a Catholic Priest?

Who is more likely to seek a peaceful resolution to a perceived slight, Imam Zawahiri or a Wyoming Republican?

It makes me sick to see the US media kissing Islam's ass meanwhile denegrating the very people that are trying to formulate a sane and rational policy whereby they keep America safe and seek to eliminate terrorists overseas. These people need killing. And no one else is going to kill them except us ( and Great Brittan). The rest of the world is kept free by us.

I’m tired of having people tell me to apologize for being an American. America is a great country that has taken risks, saved millions and millions of people’s lives, single handedly rescued impoverished continents, led by example and rule of law, always tried very hard, and payed this price on the backs of its middle and lower classes. Yep, the great unwashed of America have given the world its freedom. And for what? So we can sneak into Athens and hear a bunch of Mexicans shout Osama while we scurry around and fear making eye-contact? ****'em!

We don’t always get it 100% right, but at least we are out their doing something. What the **** has France ever done for anyone in the last 100 years? To the rest of the world who seem to think we owe them an apology: **** Off.

MZ Not aimed at you - I'm just ranting - as is still my right.

 

[pete-rock]

Damn, EG.

Your rant basically confirmed what I suspected all along -- that our government is fighting a new Crusade. However, instead of Christianity vs. Islam, it's become The American Way (with the help of the Brits) vs. Islam.

As for pursuing this new Crusade; whether it's right or wrong, it seems like a prescription for taking the USA from being THE economic and military superpower with 300 million people now to being one of many semi-powerful nations in the world with 200 million people 20 years from now.

 

[el Guapo]

Damn, EG.

Your rant basically confirmed what I suspected all along -- that our government is fighting a new Crusade. However, instead of Christianity vs. Islam, it's become The American Way (with the help of the Brits) vs. Islam.

As for pursuing this new Crusade; whether it's right or wrong, it seems like a prescription for taking the USA from being THE economic and military superpower with 300 million people now to being one of many semi-powerful nations in the world with 200 million people 20 years from now.

Pete
How can anything I say confirm a official government policy? It is just my opinion alone. No one else is kooky enough to state what I have just stated in public, besides Ann Coulter.

I disagree. I think containing Arab-Street-Islam is doing the world a favor and may be the only thing that keeps us from becoming a France or Canada or Spain.

There are already 10 confirmed Islamic Nuclear Weapons, and estimated potential for 30 more. How well would you sleep at night knowing Al Queda and North Korea think they could pull off an atomic attack on the US? Both are suicidal and lead by true believers. Elect John Kerry and find out how well you'll sleep at night. Bush isn't by any means my ideal guy, but I have to go with him for a continuation of the current policy of forward power projection. Folks its a nasty world out there filled with people that want US dead. If we choose the appeasment route we will have lost everything 220 odd years of sacrifice built for the world. I'm not ready to elect an appeaser. I'm not ready to become a member of the EU.

Time to send in the B-52's

 

[pete-rock]

Pete
How can anything I say confirm a official government policy? It is just my opinion alone. No one else is kooky enough to state what I have just stated in public, besides Ann Coulter.

I disagree. I think containing Arab-Street-Islam is doing the world a favor and may be the only thing that keeps us from becoming a France or Canada or Spain.

You are right. What you say does not confirm official government policy.

But I think your opinion is one that is shared by WAY more people than just you and Ann Coulter, and impacts our policy.

I honestly wonder whether "Arab-Street-Islam" (as you describe it) can be contained. Communism is a political and economic ideology from 150 years ago, and while we won the war, there are still plenty of Communists (hello, China?) out there. "Arab-Street-Islam" is a religion and ideology that has been around more than 1000 years, and may have more fight in it than the Communists ever did.

Pete
How well would you sleep at night knowing Al Queda and North Korea think they could pull off an atomic attack on the US? Both are suicidal and lead by true believers. Elect John Kerry and find out how well you'll sleep at night.

I'll sleep fine tonight knowing that we've been around this block before.

Good night.

 

[el Guapo]

You are right. What you say does not confirm official government policy.

But I think your opinion is one that is shared by WAY more people than just you and Ann Coulter, and impacts our policy.

I honestly wonder whether "Arab-Street-Islam" (as you describe it) can be contained. Communism is a political and economic ideology from 150 years ago, and while we won the war, there are still plenty of Communists (hello, China?) out there. "Arab-Street-Islam" is a religion and ideology that has been around more than 1000 years, and may have more fight in it than the Communists ever did.

Then Pete I respectfully ask what you suggest should be our national policy?

 

[Michele Zone]

Cute MZ

<big snip>

MZ Not aimed at you - I'm just ranting - as is still my right.

Hey, I don't even feel obligated to read the entire rant right this minute. Maybe later, if I feel better. (Long day for me and there is always a Price for me going out and Getting A Life for a few hours. Shaking hands with a bunch of strangers is inevitably followed by illness. Sigh.) My point was that you are obviously on a rampage. Nothing fundamentally wrong with that. I just hope folks will respect your right to blow steam out of both ears without taking it excessively personally.

 

[pete-rock]

Then Pete I respectfully ask what you suggest should be our national policy?

Funny you should ask. I'm running for President as the Buckwheat Party nominee.

1. Win the war in Iraq. We broke it, we bought it. Hold free elections as soon as possible after June 30, and advocate for a federalist-type government in Iraq among the Kurd, Shia and Sunni ethnic/religious groups. And then get out. I don't care if the resulting leadership is anti-American; but I do care if Turkey and Iran feel threatened by this arrangement. They'd feel my heat if they meddle in Iraq. Unfortunately, Iraq will need years (decades?) of US assistance.

2. Finish the job in Afghanistan. Hold free elections there. And then get out. Just like Iraq, Afghanistan will need years/decades of US assistance.

3. Put everything we have into a resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Stop taking sides with Sharon on everything and move toward the creation of a real Palestinian state. We do that and we take a lot of the air out of the "Arab-Street-Islam" balloon.

4. Challenge Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to support us with more than their words in the region. They've got to get rid of the old Taliban/al Queda remnants. They've got to be leaders in the Middle East. And I might dangle the possibility of removing US bases from Saudi Arabia as a carrot.

That's a start.

 

[Michele Zone]

4. Challenge Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to support us with more than their words in the region.

Pakistan needs some serious support. The demographics there are extremely young and .... it is a potential powder keg because of it. They have serious infrastructure issues, serious problems with child labor (even child slaves) and ... I worry about Pakistan. We don't need to be asking for THEIR support. We need to be asking what they NEED from us.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[pete-rock]

Pakistan needs some serious support. The demographics there are extremely young and .... it is a potential powder keg because of it. They have serious infrastructure issues, serious problems with child labor (even child slaves) and ... I worry about Pakistan. We don't need to be asking for THEIR support. We need to be asking what they NEED from us.

Just my 2 cents.

I wouldn't ask Pakistan for financial or military support in the War on Terrorism. What I want them to do is to be serious about rounding up Taliban/al Qaeda remnants in their country, and bring them to us.

 

[Michele Zone]

I wouldn't ask Pakistan for financial or military support in the War on Terrorism. What I want them to do is to be serious about rounding up Taliban/al Qaeda remnants in their country, and bring them to us.

The North burned Atlanta to the ground because it was the manufacturing center of the South, supplying the troops. If you want people to go to war for you, you have to feed them, clothe them, and so on. Pakistan is incredibly poor. And the women there are incredibly uneducated, which has a detrimental effect on the entire culture because women are mostly the ones who directly raise kids. Educated women have healthier kids and lower infant mortality rates. They are also less likely to raise nutcase extremists. You cannot get blood from a turnip. The people are selling their kids into slavery for $12 because they cannot provide for them.

 

[michaelskis]

Listen the **** up: AMERICA DOESN’T HAVE A DAMED THING TO APPOLIOGIZE FOR. NOT ONE GOOD GOD DAMMED THING.

AMEN!

I agree, we should be proud of where we are from and not fearful of showing our pride. Just because we win most of the events at the olympics should not limit our pride.

It does not matter anyhow, I would be shocked if all the construction will be finished by then.

Oh, and I sleep better at night knowing that W. is the head of our county... If JK was, I would be worried that he would be on the fence for too long when it comes to defending our country.

 

[Cardinal]

Maybe I read this differently. When traveling abroad, we are told to downplay our American habits, to use caution to avoid becoming a potential target. It seems to me that the USOC has asked the athletes to do the same. There is a great deal of resentment toward the US. Athens is very concerned about the possibility of terrorist strikes at the games. Asking the athletes to recognize this and not to inflame anti-US sentiment by blatant displays of jingoism seems to me to be a prudent measure.

 

[Chet]

I read it the same way as Cardinal, but I can't dismiss the fact that too many of us truly ARE the 'ugly American' stereotype.

[ot] I went to the Atlanta games, and while a fun time, if you truly like the Olympics its better to see them on TV... [/ot]

 

[tsc]

The rest of the world failed the people of Iraq as they continue to do! Great Britian excluded.

... I think the "world" has failed many countries where people are repressed, tortured,, etc.. by oppressive governments... not just Iraq.

 

[Budgie]

I read it the same way as Cardinal, but I can't dismiss the fact that too many of us truly ARE the 'ugly American' stereotype.

Here, here. Does anyone remember dignified sportsmanship? Brash foolish displays are the "ugly American" stereotype. To use a common phrase used by football coaches, "once you score a touchdown, act like you've been there before". American arrogance is a reality. I remember riding the tube in London and seeing American tourists playing the fool. We need to act dignified, only then will we get respect.

Oh, by the way, this war is not about ideology. It's about economics and the US addition to oil (IMO of course). How can America claim to be a melting pot, yet fight war over religious, political and economic ideologies? The ultimate in hypocrisy.

 

[Duke Of Dystopia]

......."once you score a touchdown, act like you've been there before". American arrogance is a reality. I remember riding the tube in London and seeing American tourists playing the fool. We need to act dignified, only then will we get respect........

OH YEAH, I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF ANY SOCCER FANS GETTING OUT OF HAND, WAVING THIER SHIRTS AT THIER FOES.

rrrrrrrRRRRRROOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOO! rrrrrrrRRRRRROOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOO!
rrrrrrrRRRRRROOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOO!

ITS NEVER HAPPENED THAT SOCCOR FANS GET CRAZY AND THROW BAGS OF FECIES AT OPPOSING TEAM FANS, OR RIOT AFTER A BAD LOSS OR A WIN, OR SET BUSSES ON FIRE BURINING PEOPLE ALIVE (ITALY).

OR SOCCER HOLIGANS PUSHING DOWN WALLS TO SMASH PEOPLE TO DEATH (ENGLAND)

HELL, THE US WINS A SOCCER GAME AGAINST (COLUMBIA I THINK) AND THEY ASSASSINATED THE GOALIE FOR SCREWING UP. SURE, IT ONLY US WHO ARE UGLY SPORTS FANS.

YOU KNOW WHERE YOU CAN SHOVE THE UGLY AMERICANS IN SPORTS CRAP

 

[NHPlanner]

YOU KNOW WHERE YOU CAN SHOVE THE UGLY AMERICANS IN SPORTS CRAP

No need to shout Duke....and please, lets not turn this into personal attacks folks....keep it civil, please.

 

[BKM]

I actually agree with EG's detestation (my politically incorrect word) of Arab-Street-Islam, partly for the very reasons he gives. Religion of peace, please.

I totally disagree with his proscriptions, though (and even PeteRocks's more moderate position.) Let's see, among other things (somewhat rambling list) what have we done/are we doing. Note that MY list could easily be described as bipartisan:

1. We destroy the only strongly secular sate in the Middle East (as nasty as it was) with an unwarranted invasion while continuing to buddy up to the major financial supporter of fuindamentalist Islam worldwide, Saudi Arabia.

2. We really think we can "impose" "democracy and peace" on said nation, while in reality unleashing all the buttoned up nastiness a Third World Islamic society

3. We add further tax breaks to support even more consumption of fuel and continue merrily believing that we can off-shore our entire economy to benefit the few-while said fortunate few supports an imperial state that will require a stronger real economy. Who are the real traitors here?

4. We start training militant groups and providing weapons to governments in North Africa. Since we laregly created the Afghani side of Islamofascism, don't you think we would have learned our lessions? No, our all knowing, all-seeing neocon "realists" reassure us that THESE future terrorists will stay boughten.

5. We botch the planning for the postwar period so badly.

6. I agree with Peterock's point about the New Crusade. Our government is led by a dry drunk who had never left the country and believes that Hal Lindsey books are real predictions. Islamofascists are not the only scary religion in the world today. They may have ten bombs, but premillenarian people who believe that the world should end soon so Jesus can come back now control thousands of missiles and bombs

Could I sleep better at night with John Kerry? Hell yes. Name one thing that the current cabal have done right?

 

[Budgie]

YOU KNOW WHERE YOU CAN SHOVE THE UGLY AMERICANS IN SPORTS CRAP

So you're saying, when in Rome (Athens) do as the Romans (Greek) do. It's called stooping to their level. Should we be stooping to their level?

When you're in a public hearing and a NYMBY presenter calls City staff a bunch of liars, should the City staff stand up and say the same back to the public? Perhaps we all need to grow up.

Since when did Christianity become a pure "religion of peace" and understanding?

 

[Duke Of Dystopia]

No need to shout Duke....and please, lets not turn this into personal attacks folks....keep it civil, please.

chastize taken, but damn, does that make soccer fans just a set of criminals?

How many people die of rioting, or burning, or crushing, or what have you in this country do to the freakin chicken dance in the end-zone?

Its ok for soccer fans to fling fecies, maim, and murder, but do a little dance in the endzone and your over the top?

Wearing a jersey is too much?

Thats a huge WOW!

 

[BKM]

On the other hand, I don't need the Continent that gave us African slavery, multiple world wars, Naziism, Communism, etc. etc. lecturing us about political morality. That's one area where the conservatives are correct.

 

[Downtown]

Oh, and I sleep better at night knowing that W. is the head of our county... If JK was, I would be worried that he would be on the fence for too long when it comes to defending our country.

Oh michaelskis - I just don't even know what to say to this - first - it was AG, not JK who would be running things right now. Second - do you honestly believe that this whole affair has been even remotely well handled?

 

[Duke Of Dystopia]

So you're saying, when in Rome (Athens) do as the Romans (Greek) do. It's called stooping to their level. Should we be stooping to their level? .......
QUOTE]

Last I checked we hadn't killed anybody in our stadiums because they were fans of another team specificaly for that reason.

you forgot mexico city last year during the soccer games, where people were waving pictures of ubl and chanting "death to america" while we played the mexicans

Thats not ugly?

Wow, thats stooping to thier level? What other crimes of humanity are we guilty of in sports? Winning in soccer more often?

if that's the world's idea of sportsmanship, I'll take spiking the ball in the endzone every time!

 

[Rumpy Tunanator]

I don't see why our athletes representing our country can't wave the flag. So what, other countries hate us. We've been hated for a long time so what's the difference now?

Terrorists attacks are bound to happen, as they did in our own backyard during the Atlanta Olympics. Although Athens is hardly ready to host the Olympics so I could see why they are afraid.

If they didn't want the U.S. athletes to wave our country's flag, then they should have told them to stay home.

Personally, I hope we win the most medals just to piss them off even more.

U.S.A., U.S.A., U.S.A...........

 

[Duke Of Dystopia]

......When you're in a public hearing and a NYMBY presenter calls City staff a bunch of liars, should the City staff stand up and say the same back to the public? ......
Since when did Christianity become a pure "religion of peace" and understanding?

I never remotly said anything about christianity in this conversation, and agree it is not a religion of "peace and understanding".

As far as the NYMBY, we soldier on after barbs like that, as part of this job we expect it. I have been called out as such, I got big soldiers I just say this is the info as we have it. Nymbyism and how we handle it are different than sports. I wouldn't say that to the public any way.

We can agree on many things, but we are not worse than others in the sports world.

 

[otterpop]

Seems like prudent advice to me. I would be surprised, and happily so, if this Olympics in Greece went through without a terrorist attack. Given the political climate, being more circumspect is good advice.

Olympic athletes are not soldiers, nor are they part of our government. They are amateur athletes who represent our country in an international athletic event. When they win, we cheer. But the reason they do what they do is primarily for their personal goals, not our national honor. No point in being made a martyr because you can swim very, very fast.

 

[pete-rock]

YOU KNOW WHERE YOU CAN SHOVE THE UGLY AMERICANS IN SPORTS CRAP

Here's an analogy. You are invited to a friend's party in a bad neighborhood, and you decide to go. You can do one of two things:

-- strut into the 'hood like a bada$$, shouting Denzel's line from "Training Day" ("King Kong ain't got nothin' on me!"), thinking if you show these people just who you are, they will not mess with you; or

-- you lay low, have fun at the party, and get out quietly, recognizing that your face is unfamiliar here and you may not know all the complexities of the place?

'Hood common sense tells me that you go into unfriendly places with a little measure of deference. That doesn't mean you lack in confidence, or that you apologize for your presence. It simply means that you don't own the place, and someone else does.

 

[Repo Man]

The US athletes should be able to celebrate at the Olympics in the manner in which they choose. The whole reason for the Olympics is to celebrate and support your country’s athletes. However the Americans will get booed at every single event and that is a direct result of Bush's decision to invade Iraq. You can say what you want about this war but one cannot argue that it hasn't tarnished our image around the globe. The US had a list of reasons to invade Iraq and most of them have turned out to be lies. To top it off we have some idiot soldiers have made us look like hypocrites by abusing Iraqi prisoners.

 

[Duke Of Dystopia]

......

'Hood common sense tells me that you go into unfriendly places with a little measure of deference. That doesn't mean you lack in confidence, or that you apologize for your presence. It simply means that you don't own the place, and someone else does.

Ok, I can agree with that, and its how I would approach the issue myself.

That is not the source of my post. The issue is the assertion, that Americans are uglier sports fans than say in Italy, where they burned a bus full of people alive, or scotland where soccer hooligans pushed down a wall and killed many people, or in south america where they like to fill bags with phecies and urine to throw at the opponents fans.

It seems to me, that your anology just doesn't work in this case. In all of the cases above, none are matched by american sports venues or fans. "HOOLIGANS" have no match in our national sports events. Yes we have ritots, as they do in the rest of the world, but criminal gangs of thugs out to trash opposing fans we do not have. I ask agian, when is the last time an american sports figure was assassinated because he allowed a winning score? Yet, we do a dance in the end-zone, and we are committing crimes against the world of sport?

uh-huh, excuse me if I remain unconviced of our uglieness

 

[pete-rock]

I actually agree with EG's detestation (my politically incorrect word) of Arab-Street-Islam, partly for the very reasons he gives. Religion of peace, please.

I totally disagree with his proscriptions, though (and even PeteRocks's more moderate position.)

I take the position I do because the US hand has been forced by the Iraq War and the fallout, and we gotta play it out the best way we can.

 

[Gedunker]

I ask agian, when is the last time an american sports figure was assassinated because he allowed a winning score?

I am pretty sure Bill Buckner's economic and popular future in the Boston area was assassinated during the World Series with the Mets.

*turns and runs toward St. Louis

 

[Duke Of Dystopia]

I am pretty sure Bill Buckner's economic and popular future in the Boston area was assassinated during the World Series with the Mets.

*turns and runs toward St. Louis

LOL :-D

But he is still alive to do something else. Thats a good thing. :-}

An enraged Columbian soccer fan assassinated the goal tender who allowed the American team to score during the World Cup when it was held in the US. I would hardly put them on the same level. I am citing specific examples for a reason. Show me how our sports fans have been so ugly in other countries. When is the last time that European political officials barred US fans from attending an event based upon fears of violence and general mayhem? That same thing occured a few years ago when english and scotish soccer teams were to play on the European mainland. Stiff penalties were to be imposed to maintain order.

Where is the ugly american equivelent?

 

[pete-rock]

It seems to me, that your anology just doesn't work in this case. uh-huh, excuse me if I remain unconviced of our uglieness

The USOC isn't talking about our fans or athletes being hooligans. They're talking about the actions that our fans or athletes take that can provoke the real hooligans into targeting us.

 

[Habanero]

AMEN!

I agree, we should be proud of where we are from and not fearful of showing our pride. Just because we win most of the events at the olympics should not limit our pride.

It does not matter anyhow, I would be shocked if all the construction will be finished by then.

Oh, and I sleep better at night knowing that W. is the head of our county... If JK was, I would be worried that he would be on the fence for too long when it comes to defending our country.

Too bad AG, not JK (but hopefully soon), isn't running the country. I could sleep better then. I don't think the way we're being portrayed by the country's leaders is in the slightest bit nobel or good. What has taken place, and the fact that the war or terrorism has turned into "pay back to get on my daddy's good side", is a crime, IMHO. We went over there to find the terrorists, not to turn it into a campagin for more fuel because the Bush clan would be uspet if their twin daughters couldn't drink, smoke pot, and dirve big SUVs cheaply. I cannot wait for GW to lose the election, I just hope he doesn't move back to Texas because he's not Texan and I'd rather him quit saying that because he's giving us a bad name.

 

[Gedunker]

Duke:

The United States earned a spot for the next round by defeating Colombia, who committed a silly own goal which gave the Americans a 2-1 victory. The Columbian who committed the own goal was shot in the street soon after his return to Bogota. Supposedly, he was approached by an unsatisfied football bettor who after a short conversation, repeatedly blasted him in the head.

The guy wasn't just a fan -- he was a bettor that lost a bundle. I know a couple of Derby horses I'd like to ship to the glue factory ;-)

 

[Lee Nellis]

Its hard to know what to say. American athletes ought to be able to wave the flag proudly AND ought to have better sense than to do it too much, regardless of the circumstances, but especially given these.

What goes around comes around, and we, along with our present and past allies (the French helped cut up the MidEast after WWI and they were definitely there in the Crusades) have been imposing one version or another of our regime on the Isamic world for going on a 1000 years. So, EG, if they had the power to do it, how would you feel about them imposing their regime on us? Not such a good scenario, huh? But if they could and did, would you be up in hills with a rifle? Yup. Would you inflict whatever damage you could on them at home. Yup. Would our culture generate suicide bombers if we lived in an atmosphere of utter hopelessness? It would be a stretch, but probably even that . . .

We have to butt out of their lives to the same extent we'd want them to butt out of ours. Only self-reliant peoples can enjoy trade, travel, etc. If, and I agree that it is at least possible given the nature of the beast, they then try to impose their view of things on us, we have a just cause for defending our choices with whatever force is required.

As for sleeping well with W as President, please . . . No one has done more serious damage to our national security. Every bomb that falls in Afghanistan or Iraq generates another potential terrorist who will have us as a target.

 

[boiker]

I don't recall killings either but...

Last I checked we hadn't killed anybody in our stadiums because they were fans of another team specificaly for that reason.

Royals vs. White Sox

However, our fans have attacked players and coaches on more than on occassion...just because they are the other team.

 

[PlannerGirl]

VERY well said Lee. very well said.

 

[Habanero]

Royals vs. White Sox

However, our fans have attacked players and coaches on more than on occassion...just because they are the other team.

And players have attacked fans, and Flyers fans have attacked other fans.

 

[boiker]

Too bad AG, not JK (but hopefully soon), isn't running the country. I could sleep better then. I don't think the way we're being portrayed by the country's leaders is in the slightest bit nobel or good. What has taken place, and the fact that the war or terrorism has turned into "pay back to get on my daddy's good side", is a crime, IMHO. We went over there to find the terrorists, not to turn it into a campagin for more fuel because the Bush clan would be uspet if their twin daughters couldn't drink, smoke pot, and dirve big SUVs cheaply. I cannot wait for GW to lose the election, I just hope he doesn't move back to Texas because he's not Texan and I'd rather him quit saying that because he's giving us a bad name.

[ot]

when I look at the current state of the world and the us and people compare AG to GWB, I always remember the SNL skit where they showed how the US would be after 1 year with AG and GWB.

AG gave his presidential address and spoke of an erased trade deficet, a fantastic economy and lectured us on why we didn't do our 'presidential' math homework.

GWB was cowering behind his desk, peaking up at the camera and ducking back under as WWIII ensued in the background.

Pure fiction, but funny as hell and slightly prophetic in a satircal sort of way.[/ot]

 

[jresta]

Who is more likely to look the other way when he notices a young woman getting it on with a man who is not her husband, Imam Zawahiri or a Catholic Priest?

Who is more likely to seek a peaceful resolution to a perceived slight, Imam Zawahiri or a Wyoming Republican?

KKK

Jasper, TX

Timothy McVeigh

Randy Weaver and all of the other wackos out there.

I don't apologize for feudalism but don't pretend that we have a monopoly on sanity - especially since the wackos in this country have more power now than they ever did.

 

[SGB]

I actually agree with EG's detestation (my politically incorrect word) of Arab-Street-Islam, partly for the very reasons he gives. Religion of peace, please.

And who among us is an expert in Islam? B-)

 

[BKM]

I don't mean to deny our culpability for the opinion the world appears to hold of us. And, as my post pointed out, fundamentalist Chrisitanity (and, let's be honest, Judaism) is pretty darn dangerous, too. Let's be honest, more civillians have died in Afghanistan and Iraq than in the WTC. And, not "all" of them were evil Muslims that somehow "deserved" to die or be tortured.

At the same time, I cannot deny my fear of the religious fanaticism exemplified by al Qaeda, the taliban, and our good "allies" the Saudis. Do I think the Neocon Cabal have taken the best approach to dealing with "the other"? Hell no. Do I really think that running over and invading their countries will work? No way. It just stirs the problem up. Arrogance, whether perceived or real, leads to anger-which can be stoked by those nasty government-run medias that our "allies" control.

And who among us is an expert in Islam? B-)

Is the chanting street mob laughing at the WTC bombing or the hanging, burned corpse of an American mercenary an "expert" on Islam, either?

I don't need to be an "expert" to experience a visceral reaction to the translated teachings that inspired Osama. Just like I don't need to be a Christian theologian to react negatively to the "Left Behind" series of premillenarian novels now popular in the "Heartland"-or to the ravings of the Chalcedon Foundation (Christian Domininism has many sympathizers in the Bush Adminsitration).

 

[el Guapo]

Its hard to know what to say. American athletes ought to be able to wave the flag proudly AND ought to have better sense than to do it too much, regardless of the circumstances, but especially given these.

...So, EG, if they had the power to do it, how would you feel about them imposing their regime on us? Not such a good scenario, huh? But if they could and did, would you be up in hills with a rifle? Yup. Would you inflict whatever damage you could on them at home. Yup. Would our culture generate suicide bombers if we lived in an atmosphere of utter hopelessness? It would be a stretch, but probably even that . . ..

You are right. I and others would fight for the reestablishment of democracy. But we didn't invade another democracy. We disposed a brutal dictator and told the world of our resolve to get in, defeat the tyrant, remove the tyrant and his regeime, stablize the country, turn it over to native leadership and skedaddle. Big difference.

You can't pretend it is the same thing. It is not.

 

[Habanero]

You are right. I and others would fight for the reestablishment of democracy. But we didn't invade another democracy. We disposed a brutal dictator and told the world of our resolve to get in, defeat the tyrant, remove the tyrant and his regeime, stablize the country, turn it over to native leadership and skedaddle. Big difference.

You can't pretend it is the same thing. It is not.

But why did we invade another country period? Because we can but no one else is allowed? Because little Bush wanted to finish up what his Dad didn't do? I don't think we can sit back, wipe the dirt from our hands, and act for a moment like that country is stable. It's far from it. Who is to say Bush isn't a tyrant in his own way? I love free speech but it's being censored, we've been unable to see pictures of the multitude of pine boxes being unloaded because the goverment didn't want us to see it. What makes us so much better and our way of life so much better than everyone else's?

 

[Budgie]

"HOOLIGANS"

Why are we comparing the actions of fans (fanatics) to the actions of participants? We can all think of instances in the US where players are the aggressors against fans. How many fans did Barkley decide to scrap with? Hooliganism is a far different issue than excessive celebration on the field. In places were holliganism is a problem, I'd love to see a player taunt the crowd with excessive celebration. There'd be some serious ass kickin'. The point is -- as a participant, you need to use some common sense for your own protection. Giving athletes a heads up is not a bad thing.

 

[jresta]

i'm not a fan of religion period so i hold no special sympathies for the fanatics in the white house, in jerusalem, or in a cave. Saddam was not a religious fanatic and terrorists had about as much pull in Iraq back then as the dudes who set fire to SUVs in California. Bush (with the help of his dad, Reagan, and Rumsfeld) created the situation in Iraq. Plain and simple.

The invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with evil dictators. Bush et al are buddy-buddy with Musharaf of Pakistan who staged a coup just a few years ago, yeah, the guy whose generals readily admit selling Nuke secrets to the North Koreans.

While they're busy forging documents from African countries they conveniently forget about the dozen dictators on that continent - to mention nothing of the half dozen real genocides going on - not these crocodile tears for Kurds and Bosnians.

Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush were as cozy as could be with the worst dictators on the planet and no one shed a tear for the people they've been killing and now i'm going to hear this BS that they care about getting rid of dictators that they used to be friends with because it's not politically expedient? GMAFB!

I'd be all for it if i thought it were genuine but they haven't learned a thing. They're still playing the PUK off of the KDP and supplying weapons and training to both of them to fight the PKK. Meanwhile the PUK and KDP are pulling police duties and harassing arabs and kicking them off of their land. And someone thinks this won't cause problems in the future? Just like kicking out the secular Mossadeq and replacing him with the fanatical Shah? These religious fanatics were the US insurance policy against the Soviets for 15 years. Washington created a monster - the CIA calls it "blowback." It's code for "what goes around comes around."

jin·go·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jngg-zm)
n. Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.

peaceful religion my a** and peaceful american my a**