Express bus routes

[green lizard]

(We need more transportation posts)

Do any of you have experience with express bus service?
(buses that only stop at work centers or nodes, not everywhere)
These bus routes are like street cars lines that can be rerouted.

This seems like a good idea. Better than dedicated bus
lanes like in Miami and Portland.

This operates like a poor mans light rail. What do you think?

 

[JNL]

Can you clarify if you mean buses that travel in regular traffic lanes, or on a separate system?

 

[H]

Better than dedicated bus
lanes like in Miami and Portland.

considering the traffic in Miami-Dade on Dixie Hwy (US1) where the main dedicated lane is, I think it is a god sent. it creates a safe place to wait and doesnt have to get stuck in traffic or create more traffic during stops. In a lesser traffic area it might not be needed, but I think Miami-Dade did a good job there.

But too bad you cant cross Dixie Hwy to get to the stop without getting run over though.

 

[green lizard]

I was involved in the Miami bus lanes....
They were a good idea, but I hear that a fatal flaw
may be their location near the RR tracks. There have
been some bad accidents, and some bad accidents with
police cars using or crossing the bus lanes.

The meachants in Portland are trying there best to
get rid of the dedicated bus lanes. They claim that
any shops on the bus lanes get zip biss.

No, I think that that the dedicated bus lanes in Miami and
Portand are to restictive.
The new stratagy is to link buses routes that only go to a
few places (ex. Suburban to downtown, Work node to
mall) and don't stop in between, to local bus routes that do.

It is actually an old idea that is seeing reasurgance.
And it give routers flexbility, unlike dedicated bus lanes.

Can you get behind this?

 

[de-bug]

No real expert input here, but there was an interesting experiment in Indy recently involving express buses. They shut down a significant part of the interstates going through downtown this summer. To help ease commuter traffic, they set up an express bus service to the major commuting suburbs.

Apparently it was successful enough that they are now looking at ways to sustain and expand the service.

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/9/060530-1139-102.html

 

[Tranplanner]

It sounds to me like you are describing Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) rather than "Express" bus service. There's lots of info out there on BRT pros and cons, and the various schemes moving forward...

 

[biscuit]

The construction of express bus-ways has proven to be a successful and efficient alternative to new, more expensive light rail line expansion for my city.

 

[H]

I was involved in the Miami bus lanes....
They were a good idea, but I hear that a fatal flaw
may be their location near the RR tracks. There have
been some bad accidents, and some bad accidents with
police cars using or crossing the bus lanes.

The meachants in Portland are trying there best to
get rid of the dedicated bus lanes. They claim that
any shops on the bus lanes get zip biss.

No, I think that that the dedicated bus lanes in Miami and
Portand are to restictive.
The new stratagy is to link buses routes that only go to a
few places (ex. Suburban to downtown, Work node to
mall) and don't stop in between, to local bus routes that do.

It is actually an old idea that is seeing reasurgance.
And it give routers flexbility, unlike dedicated bus lanes.

Can you get behind this?

yes, I see what you are saying. having little to do with trans planning myself and considering you were involved in the Miami bus lanes, I will take your word on all of what you said.

I do like them though (for the reasons i said before), so good job.

however i dont ride it because the lanes do no service my area. I do however ride the metro-rail, which is just down the street.

 

[fever]

I ride Vancouver's B-Lines quite frequently. Vancouver's B-Lines are limited-stop routes along busy corridors that use articulated buses at high frequencies. The system runs in traffic for the vast majority of its length (only one of the three routes has a separate right of way, and only for a few kilometres). One of the major goals of the B-Lines is to increase ridership along corridors where it is anticipated a grade-separated system (SkyTrain) will be built in the future, something it does quite well... maybe too well.

The first B-Line opened in 1996 and is now at or beyond capacity for much of the day, especially during the school year. The bus runs every 3 minutes and leaves people behind at some stops during rush hour. Beginning in September, a super express service will begin operation between the two ends of that route, with no stops in between.

The major problem with these express bus routes is their low capacity. Despite that, the service is comfortable, frequent, and fast.

 

[green lizard]

One of the major goals of the B-Lines is to increase ridership along corridors where it is anticipated a grade-separated system (SkyTrain) will be built in the future, something it does quite well... maybe too well.

Very Cool. I stated that this is not a new idea... but
one (in the US anyway) that needs to be 'packaged' for
general use. I think that some of the other US examples
are gaining atten.

To me, this is poor mans light rail. Thanks for the B-line
reference, A great idea. I will reasearch it more.

 

[green lizard]

yes, I see what you are saying. having little to do with trans planning myself and considering you were involved in the Miami bus lanes, I will take your word on all of what you said.

Just to be clear, I did do work for someone who was very
involved with the planning and design of the Miami Bus Lanes. T. Imada was his name (passed away 1-2 years ago) He wrote a couple of papers on bus lanes and spoke about them.

My involvement was minimal, but I got good stuff from it.

 

[Jeff]

Philly uses them on a couple of routes that I can think of. Only during peak hours. 2 of the three are routes that go to local high schools, with only a couple key stops along the way, and another is a route from a trnasit hub, out to the IRS building which is a major employer in NE Philly.

 

[jresta]

Express bus (or train) to me means that it skips a bunch of local stops on it's way to the major destination.

Limited service means that it stops only at high traffic stops/stations or one with connecting service.

To back up big mike - Philly also has the 9 bus that circles center city then jumps on the expressway and heads up to the northwestern corner of the city (Roxborough/Manayunk) making its stops along Ridge Ave. SEPTA has the R6 that parallels this route but it's a long steep walk up to the "ridge" so the 9 has high ridership, and runs frequently using articulated buses.
http://www.septa.org/schedule.cgi?route=9&day=1&return=on
the map at the bottom displays the route.

http://www.septa.org/schedule.cgi?route=125&day=1
The King of Prussia route as well - neither route uses dedicated lanes.


NJTransit uses a similar system along US 9 but they run buses with different numbers over the same route. One makes most or all local stops (every 1/4 mile or so but of course it only stops if someone is standing there), another stops only at major park&rides, and another makes stops at the far end of the route then runs express to manhattan or stops at the ferry terminal.

NJT uses the greyhound type buses for it's long haul/commuter routes and they are normally filled/overflowing. It's just not the ride mode for the job. The trip takes 50-100% longer than commuter rail traveling the same distance to the same destination - and that's with HOV lanes on the Turnpike and one lane of the Lincoln Tunnel designated as bus only for the morning rush. A bus/hov lane for the entire route would help with the time issues but won't do anything to clear up the capacity problem.

I can't link directly to it but if you go here and click on "commuter"
this company contracts for NJT and runs a few express routes.
http://www.academybus.com

 

[green lizard]

. A bus/hov lane for the entire route would help with the time issues but won't do anything to clear up the capacity problem.

http://www.academybus.com

Good information. The express bus is an old idea...
They may not work everywhere.
But I don't belive there benift would be only adding capacity.
I think that people who would not normally use bus service
would use it if it went from point A to point B without stopping
at every corner in between.

The ones I am refering two run more like rail. Every fifteen min
or so, no stopping to wait for schedule. Only going to the
most identifiable attractors from the most identifiable attractors.

But the thing that makes them really attractive is to be able
to tweak the routes.

 

[jresta]

The ones I am refering two run more like rail. Every fifteen min
or so, no stopping to wait for schedule. Only going to the
most identifiable attractors from the most identifiable attractors.

Outside of dense, mixed-use urban areas the way rail works is that it picks up people in suburban, mostly residential locations and drops them off in a downtown, mostly commercial location.
The way it sounds to me, and i assume since this is Florida you're talking about a suburban environment, is that people would have to drive to a bus stop (or take another bus to that stop) and wait a few minutes for a bus that would then take them to a similar location further down the line. Is this correct?
How big of a distance are we talking about? How far between stops and how long is the total route? How expensive is it to park in these locations? How expensive is it to drive in terms of tolls and traffic? Do the buses have their own ROW?

But the thing that makes them really attractive is to be able
to tweak the routes.

I don't understand what you mean by "tweaking".

 

[green lizard]

Tweaking means that instead of being tied to a rail or
catenary system or dedicated bus lanes,
the express routes can be changed at will.

Instead of building around a trans system, why not
allow the system to go where the demand is?
(thats why I love the rail cars with the rubber tires
that can go off track)

One last thing, most places that could utilize express
bus type routing probably don't have what it would take
to support light rail. Therefore 'a poor mans' light rail.

Get it.

 

[jresta]

Do you mean something like a train that connect with other routes and serve major destinations and it's purpose would be to serve as the spine of a larger system? That makes good sense but i'm not sure if that's what you are saying.

Tweaking means that instead of being tied to a rail or
catenary system or dedicated bus lanes,
the express routes can be changed at will.

What people like about express bus or rail service is speed and reliability. If the destinations for particular buses are changing every few months the riders you're going to be left with are the riders without a choice.

Beyond that, if people have to drive to a bus stop, only to sit in traffic on the bus, they're not going to take it unless the cost of parking is prohibitively expensive and/or non-existent. If traffic isn't much of an issue people aren't going to bother parking their car and waiting for a bus.

If people have to take a feeder bus to get to the express routes it better pick them up at their front door - otherwise forget it. If you have the money and/or ridership to pay for frequent feeder service then you have the money for light rail.

It's cheaper and quicker to ride my bike to work than it is to catch the bus a block from my front door and transfer to the bus that goes by my office.

Instead of building around a trans system, why not
allow the system to go where the demand is?
(thats why I love the rail cars with the rubber tires
that can go off track)

I agree that transit should follow demand but what you're describing sounds more like a tourist trolley that links the major destinations than a viable transit system. If you want to attract the kind of activity and investments that make transit viable there needs to be some sense of permanence to the transit system.

 

[green lizard]

It's cheaper and quicker to ride my bike to work than it is to catch the bus a block from my front door and transfer to the bus that goes by my office.

Not everyone has the CHOICE to ride a bike to work or shopping. I do not know many 65 to 80 year olds who are
jetting about on thier bike.

I was not looking to attract anything. I was speaking of service
for the demand in place. A service that will not take 10 years to
get built. A 'major destination' is not allways a tourist spot.
Think of work nodes, malls (yes ugly malls, people still shop
there). think of how development has occered in some areas.
A centeral downtown may not be the spot everywhere. Yes in
Florida we have a more poly centric spread (urban spraw).
As much as we all hate it, we still have to find ways to serve it.

 

[Chet]

Maybe a different twist:

Ozaukee and Washington Counties in Wisconsin had a form of express bus, originating in the morning in the Central City, with 1 or 2 stops to pick up "those people". It would shuttle the "those employees" out to the distant suburbs like Grafton, Hartford, West Bend, where light manufacturing employers were booming but suffering a labor deficit. See, problem was, you cant live in these higher rent 'burbs with what the employers were offering in compensation, but it was more compensation than the employee could find in the urban core. Come 5PM, all "those people" would be packed back up and be taken "back there".

For those familiar with the Milwaukee metro area,
this map says it all -- direct from the blighted core at 6th and Mitchell to your suburban business parks.

Sponsored by your Federal Tax Dollar, none the less!

 

[jresta]

Not everyone has the CHOICE to ride a bike to work or shopping. I do not know many 65 to 80 year olds who are
jetting about on thier bike.

the issue isn't whether or not someone can ride a bike. The issue is the speed of your bus. If riding the bus is slower than driving people with a choice will always drive unless the price/availability of parking becomes an issue.

I was not looking to attract anything. I was speaking of service
for the demand in place. A service that will not take 10 years to
get built. A 'major destination' is not allways a tourist spot.
Think of work nodes, malls (yes ugly malls, people still shop
there). think of how development has occered in some areas.
A centeral downtown may not be the spot everywhere. Yes in
Florida we have a more poly centric spread (urban spraw).
As much as we all hate it, we still have to find ways to serve it.

the only point i'm trying to get across is that without ridership you can't justify service with 15 minute headways. If people don't live within walking distance of your bus service they're not going to use it. In a suburban environment very few people live within walking distance of malls and office parks. The only way to resolve this issue is to either have feeder buses bringing people into your system or to have them park and ride, but again, in a suburban setting with ample free parking, people with a choice will opt to drive to their next destination before they wait for a bus.

Any sort of express system has to tie in with residential areas at some point either through direct or feeder service. I have grandparents that live in Ocala and Port St. Lucie and if you're part of Florida looks anything like theirs you're going to have a
tough time getting people from their houses to any sort of central transit point without them getting in their cars first - and if they have to get in their cars you're not getting them out.

 

[green lizard]

. I have grandparents that live in Ocala and Port St. Lucie and if you're part of Florida looks anything like theirs you're going to have a
tough time getting people from their houses to any sort of central transit point without them getting in their cars first - and if they have to get in their cars you're not getting them out.

Port St Joe and Ocala are not very urban areas. And you are wrong. Many poly centric areas have transportation cooridors.
Most neirborhoods in these areas were originally
built along these cooridors. These cooridors are serviced by
busses that stop every ten feet. The idea is to keep that bus. But
add the express bus route. (headways are a function of demand
and are determined by such) So conceptually, if (read post
about 'those people') all the workers or shoppers in one area
want to get to the work or shopping in another... I know that
the perfect idea would be to move all the people to the jobs,
but (read up on jobs/housing inbalace by R. C.) that is not
allways the way it has developed.

Realistic soultions for what is there today.

 

[jresta]

Port St Joe and Ocala are not very urban areas.

It's Port St. Lucie not Joe and lying between Melbourne and West Palm on the east coast it's by no means sparsely populated - and with the exception of the West Palm/Miami Corridor and Tampa I haven't seen an "urban" area in Florida. I've seen sprawlsville. Suburbs without a city. That's fine. I just want to clear up what's urban and what's not.

And you are wrong. Many poly centric areas have transportation cooridors.

I don't remember saying they don't have transportation corridors but . . . ok.

Most neirborhoods in these areas were originally
built along these cooridors. These cooridors are serviced by
busses that stop every ten feet. The idea is to keep that bus. But
add the express bus route. (headways are a function of demand
and are determined by such) So conceptually, if (read post
about 'those people') all the workers or shoppers in one area
want to get to the work or shopping in another... I know that
the perfect idea would be to move all the people to the jobs,
but (read up on jobs/housing inbalace by R. C.) that is not
allways the way it has developed.
Realistic soultions for what is there today.

you could've just said "we would run express service on existing local routes with the express buses stopping only at major destinations" (or something similar and we could've ended this a long time ago.)

which is exactly what the NJTransit bus does but it goes by a different number than the local bus on the same route - that's how riders identify it as express.

 

[green lizard]

I was just following the path the thread was going.

I think there are other uses for the same concept.

P.S. Port St. Lucie is becoming the definition
of the word sprawl.

 

[jresta]

Maybe a different twist:

Ozaukee and Washington Counties in Wisconsin had a form of express bus, originating in the morning in the Central City, with 1 or 2 stops to pick up "those people". It would shuttle the "those employees" out to the distant suburbs like Grafton, Hartford, West Bend, where light manufacturing employers were booming but suffering a labor deficit. See, problem was, you cant live in these higher rent 'burbs with what the employers were offering in compensation, but it was more compensation than the employee could find in the urban core. Come 5PM, all "those people" would be packed back up and be taken "back there".

Sponsored by your Federal Tax Dollar, none the less!

EXACTLY!

I had a long argument with a planning friend about this. It started with her using the term "Public Transportation" and arguing for bus over rail service.

I said that the idea behind Public Transportation was dumb. First of all the term might as well be synonymous with "Welfare" in the minds of most of the motoring public. It's a low cost way to get poor people to their out-of-the-way jobs in what seems like the most time consuming way possible. It's also a direct employer subsidy. Rather than locating in poor areas or paying wages high enough to either attract local workers or to allow poorer workers to afford a car the taxpayers - in effect - subsidize the employer's payroll by offering cheap rides to his warehouse.

I further argued that Mass Transit was a service that was for everyone, that offered frequent, direct service to ALL employment centers and that didn't take an hour to snake 13 miles through the county from Camden to the Blackwood Industrial Park.

 

[ilikefish0]

Do any of you have experience with express bus service?
(buses that only stop at work centers or nodes, not everywhere)
These bus routes are like street cars lines that can be rerouted.

This seems like a good idea. Better than dedicated bus
lanes like in Miami and Portland.

This operates like a poor mans light rail. What do you think?

In my experience, express buses are nothing like streetcars. Streetcars operate more like regular buses, except they are tolerated by rich people. They make frequent stops, and, atl least in NO have short headways (less than 8 minutes). As an example, the St. Charles streetcar has frequent car stop signs (about every few blocks). I guess the difference is that the streetcar will only stop if someone is waiting at the stop or a paasenger has requested a stop. Express buses are merely a different level of service on top of regular buses.

As an example, the Elysian Fileds bus line in New Orleans has an Experss and a local. the travel the same route, but the express does not stop at most stops, managing to halve end-to end running time.

These dedicated bus lanes seenm to have more in common with streetcars than do express buses

 

[Tranplanner]

This publication may be of interest to you Green Lizard.

http://gulliver.trb.org/publications/tcrp/tcrp_rpt_90v1.pdf

Thanks to Planetizen for the link.

 

[LouisvilleSlugger]

Express routes in the Louisville metro area serve the downtown area and the outer fringes of the region. I was a little amazed at how poorly the burbs were served by these buses. Louisville is a sprawling metro area so more people are moving further out to save money as land is cheaper. transit is following them. there are issues with the infrastructure out there in terms of how transit can operate out there safely. those areas don't have sidewalks nor good lighting, etc. many things even the suburban areas take for granted in some cases.

 

[green lizard]

This publication may be of interest to you Green Lizard.

http://gulliver.trb.org/publications/tcrp/tcrp_rpt_90v1.pdf

Thanks to Planetizen for the link.

I am always on the TRB site and I did not see this.
Thanks for the link. It really does repackage the old
ideas into a cohesive concept.

 

[Cirrus]

The $1,000,000 question: Does BRT attract quality TOD the way fixed rail does?

If transit is a means to an end (saving ourselves from the problems of auto-dependance and suburbia) rather than an end in and of itself (relieving highway congestion), the question of TOD attraction becomes pretty important.

 

[green lizard]

The $1,000,000 question: Does BRT attract quality TOD the way fixed rail does?

If transit is a means to an end (saving ourselves from the problems of auto-dependance and suburbia) rather than an end in and of itself (relieving highway congestion), the question of TOD attraction becomes pretty important.

Good question... But not when you are trying to solve
a problem NOW and your budget is ZERO and the light
rail thing has NO political backing.

Another thing TOD is not the end all to beat all. We still must
service what is already there. The next utopia you design
can start with the transit and have all the tramsit orintated
development you desire. I need no saving from suburbia.

(ready for the flames)

 

[Cirrus]

1) Indeed, BRT has its place. LA MetroRapid is a great way of improving service in several corridors for very little cost. I merely object to its use as a replacement where other modes are more appropriate (and possible), and to the feeling among some people (not necessarily anyone here - I don't know you all well enough to judge) that fixed rail is a waste of money when BRT seems so much cheaper up front. I'm having flashbacks to the streetcars being torn out for buses.

2) TOD doesn't apply only in Peter Calthorpe style greenfield utopias. If you believe the slum of the 21st Century will be the first ring suburb (as downtown becomes attractive again and the outer suburbs remain prosperous), infill and revitalization will be the key to maintaining QOL in those areas. That can be accomplished with transit quite nicely. Refer to Arlington County, VA for a wonderful example.

3) Another point to consider: If fixed rail draws TOD better, why is that not included in economic comparisons between BRT and rail? If a rail line will spur billions of dollars in development that BRT wont, doesn't that make the additional cost more justifiable in the long term?

 

[jresta]

We still must service what is already there. The next utopia you design can start with the transit and have all the tramsit orintated development you desire. I need no saving from suburbia. (ready for the flames)

It's not that most of suburbia isn't walkable (or couldn't be made walkable for a small investment) it's that there's no place to walk TO.

A 400 yard walk through a parking lot will feel a lot longer to most people than a 600 yard walk through town. So it's not about a designing a utopia - it's about retrofitting what exists to make transit more of a viable option.

 

[green lizard]

So it's not about a designing a utopia - it's about retrofitting what exists to make transit more of a viable option.

And I agree with you... But, retro fitting cost $$$. Building new
Transit cost $$$. But worse yet, the political willpower can be
20 years in the development.

For instance, here in FL it take an average of 7 years from the
time a new road, retrofit (walkable, raised intersections, bulb
outs, etc) or inovations like bus lanes to go from preliminary
design to the first day of construction.

To get really big things like monorails and people movers
and such can be a twenty year process of JUST changing the
political will and funding TO GET TO THE DESIGN PHASE.

Express bus lanes (or BRT) type of mass transit is very
workable 'under the radar' so-to-speak. The cost is less,
the promise of flexability is there.... Granted it is short term
fixing, but it gets Mr. Sanchez to work.

So, while I went to school and understand the theory, I must
temper this with the reality of the actual practice.

(flame that)

 

[jresta]

by retro-fitting i was talking about infill. I don't think infill projects cost the taxpayer any money in a direct sense (certainly no more than new houses in the exurbs do).

establishing corridors with frequent transit service (bus) doesn't cost much either, especially if you already have a decent system.

As that corridor grows you can plan and make changes as necessary so that if a rapid bus way takes 10 years to build it will be open for service just about when it's needed.

 

[Cirrus]

... And the short-term, under the radar thing is another reason something like LA MetroRapid, that's really fixing the bus system as opposed to building something new, is so nice. But in places where the new line is already a big political issue (Silver line in Boston, Dulles line in Northern Virginia, Purple line in Maryland, etc), that doesn't work, and efforts should be made for more permanant and beneficial solutions.

... And no one is flaming you.

 

[green lizard]

[B
... And no one is flaming you. [/B]

Really... What a bunch of wimps on this one....
I thought I could always count on Jeresta to
pen out a page or two of indignation at the idea
that theory does not always equal practice.

And another thing, The most expensive solution
is not always the best. (insert flame here: the hidden
cost of the automobile) I yes, I know the best thing
for me to do is ride a bike, but I perfer to drive (insert
flame her: You must hate the environment + hidden
cost of automobile).

Sorry got off topic.... oh well.

 

[jresta]

why would i pen out my indignation if i don't disagree with you?

I'll let you know what i think - you don't have to make up an argument for me.

 

[green lizard]

why would i pen out my indignation if i don't disagree with you?

I'll let you know what i think - you don't have to make up an argument for me.

I think you would disagree. You do have a firm grasp on what
we should do to make something better..... but real world
fixes are not always the optimal solution. Therefore I belived
that you would have an aurgument with 'theory is not equal
to practice'. I guess I was wrong.

I get frustrated every other day with implementing half-ass
soultions to full blown problems. But, I still have a job and
mabye I can do better down the road. (get the pun, down the
road?)

 

[Cirrus]

The most expensive solution is not always the best.

1) True. But then, neither is the cheapest, most half-assed.
2) I can think of a whole list of solutions more expensive than light rail. Start with highways.

I get frustrated every other day with implementing half-ass soultions to full blown problems.

So what, exactly, are we arguing about? It sounds to me like we're essentially agreeing, but insist on tacking on slightly different qualifiers.

 

[SCCOTS]

Everyone makes excellent points. BRT is flexible and cheaper to implement, but probably requires a similar "critical mass" of service to throw of the negative connotation of the bus. In MI, we cant even sustain road service in the winter, much less maintain the pavement. I dont know that BRT is a viable proposal for us.

Eventually the cost of convenience will be too dramatic, and the attractiveness of transit will dictate what systems and their variants will be adapted where.

Green, a planner, in Michigan, you think I eat donughts? Only after choking down sausage, bacon, eggs, gravy, and a gallon of coffee each morning.