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Grounds to Impeach ?

Should the Bush administration be investigated for deceptions leading to war?

  • NO! The intelligence was flawed but we did it for the children.

    Votes: 6 13.3%
  • NO! The intelligence was flawed but remember 911!

    Votes: 6 13.3%
  • NO, the intelligence was flawed but damn we kicked butt, Whats the problem?.

    Votes: 2 4.4%
  • NO! Think of the kittens, the Bush twins are bout to start their SO tour of Bagdad

    Votes: 3 6.7%
  • NO! He should resign and let Cheney handle America's biggest PR fiasco.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • YES! The Bush Admin knowingly used flawed and fabricated intelligence to justify the war on Iraq

    Votes: 22 48.9%
  • YES! If Daddy Bush is out of the white house then the Bush twins can go back to being bad girls

    Votes: 6 13.3%

  • Total voters
    45
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Nero

Member
Messages
246
Points
10
NO! The intelligence was flawed but remember 911

I question this responce... What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? There have been no Alqaida (sorry misspelled) training camps found in Iraq.
 
Messages
20
Points
2
NO! The intelligence was flawed but remember 911.

To me, this response was meant to be comical.

911 has been used as the reason for so many of our troubles. People keep buying into this one regardeless of what issue it is tied to.
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
He lied, big deal... like that hasn't happened before in politics...
Elections are comming, lets hope people remember the lies then.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,991
Points
30
Planificador Urbano said:
Look at Venezuela today should we overthrow their Government? And the dozens of very bad government outhere? Nice comment about digging people up.. I thought it was an open chat.... maybe I'm not in the cyburbia club.
Hell yes you're in the clube. The clube is just full of mean assholes like me and others here. Don't take it personnaly. And to you nice people, I didn't mean you were assholes. You know who you are.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
EG said:
And to you nice people, I didn't mean you were assholes. You know who you are.
I'll put myself squarely in the asshole corner so you dont have to do it for me! :)
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
How much of an asshole can you be before you get the forced time out from the MODERATOR?

Bushes problem and fault is that he lied when all he had to do was say "It's a culture war, two go in, ONE comes out on TOP"
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

-- George Bush, SOTU, 2003

"LONDON (AFP) - Prime Minister Tony Blair defended claims that Saddam Hussein had tried to get uranium from the African state of Niger in the late 1990s.

"I stand by entirely the claim that was made last September," Blair told parliament Wednesday, referring to the allegation in the British government dossier published in the build up to the Iraq war."

-- Tony Blair, January 16, 2003


Sooooooo, exactly where's the lie again?
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
El Feo said:
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

-- George Bush, SOTU, 2003

"LONDON (AFP) - Prime Minister Tony Blair defended claims that Saddam Hussein had tried to get uranium from the African state of Niger in the late 1990s.

"I stand by entirely the claim that was made last September," Blair told parliament Wednesday, referring to the allegation in the British government dossier published in the build up to the Iraq war."

-- Tony Blair, January 16, 2003


Sooooooo, exactly where's the lie again?
I think the point is that American intelligence was unable to corroborate the British claim, and in fact doubted that it was true. Admittedly, neither of us knows for sure, and the people who do know are unlikely to give us clear answers. It comes down to gut feelings. I believe that Bush (or at least his team) knew the information was doubtful, but that it would help them to make a story that could sell the American people on going to war. I'm not terribly bothered by this. Maybe it is cynical, but that is the kind of behaviour I have come to expect from my government. It does not matter if it is Bush or Clinton, Democrat or Republican.
 

Greenescapist

Cyburbian
Messages
1,169
Points
24
Michael Stumpf said:
I think the point is that American intelligence was unable to corroborate the British claim, and in fact doubted that it was true. Admittedly, neither of us knows for sure, and the people who do know are unlikely to give us clear answers. It comes down to gut feelings. I believe that Bush (or at least his team) knew the information was doubtful, but that it would help them to make a story that could sell the American people on going to war. I'm not terribly bothered by this. Maybe it is cynical, but that is the kind of behaviour I have come to expect from my government. It does not matter if it is Bush or Clinton, Democrat or Republican.
I agree with you for the most part, but I don't think this was just an innocent lie. The CIA dispatched a senior offial to go to Niger to investigate the uranium sale claim. That agent said the British intelligence was bogus-- way before the State of the Union address. Bush should have never used it. Like you said, he used it because it sounded good. The Bush team decided they were going to invade Iraq come hell or high water.
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
Show me the WMD

Show me anything that is said to have been there in the first place (Scuds, artillary shells, fridges full of small pox, etc)

Even then, I say "aright, bogus war, but it needed to be done any way. Six of one, half dozen of the other".

But don't trust Bush as far as you can throw him now (not a threat or invite to toss the president even if you get near him :) ). Make him justify everything by a factor of 10
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Greenescapist said:
The Bush team decided they were going to invade Iraq come hell or high water.
And thats why I love the man.

But, if we keep losing 2-3 guys a day over there the stuff is going to hit the fan soon I think.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Michael Stumpf said:
I think the point is that American intelligence was unable to corroborate the British claim, and in fact doubted that it was true. Admittedly, neither of us knows for sure, and the people who do know are unlikely to give us clear answers. It comes down to gut feelings. I believe that Bush (or at least his team) knew the information was doubtful, but that it would help them to make a story that could sell the American people on going to war. I'm not terribly bothered by this. Maybe it is cynical, but that is the kind of behaviour I have come to expect from my government. It does not matter if it is Bush or Clinton, Democrat or Republican.
It's intelligence. By it's nature and definition, it is somewhat "doubtful." But even within the US intel community there were varying degrees of said doubt.

The use of the phrase may seem unfortunate to some (though not even that to me), and the solidity of the intel may have been debateable at the time (I think it seems pretty damn solid now), but it certainly wasn't a lie.

It definitely wasn't the cornerstone of the argument for war.

And this whole hoo-haw over 16 words out of a 5400 word speech seems like a whole lot of pitiful, sickeningly hopeful grasping at straws by a bunch of delusional, hateful losers to me.

But hey, that's just my opinion.
 

Greenescapist

Cyburbian
Messages
1,169
Points
24
Mike D. said:

But, if we keep losing 2-3 guys a day over there the stuff is going to hit the fan soon I think.
Yeah, no kidding. What about the $4 billion a month we're spending there? And we're still not able to get things secure.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
2-3 guys a day is bad, but to me it isn't tragic. Those people died for something, and that's heroic.

And, not to sound callous, but they're soldiers. They knew it was dangerous when the signed up. Better marines getting shot at in Falluja than civilians being flown into buildings in NYC.

Germany wasn't any more "secure" than Iraq is now until 1947. We have damn short memories.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Duke Of Dystopia said:
How much of an asshole can you be before you get the forced time out from the MODERATOR?
Try me ;)

The APM fiasco would give you a good idea. If you dont know about this, well good. Most of the threads were purged.
 

Jen

Cyburbian
Messages
1,704
Points
25
Wha-at and no one is admonishing me for dragging the Bush twins into this quagmire! I really would like to recast my vote for letting cheney finish out the Presidential term of office. At tleast that man is in full possession of his tongue and can articulate his thoughts accurately.

And Mike D
But, if we keep losing 2-3 guys a day over there the stuff is going to hit the fan soon I think.
What exactly do you mean? what are the guys gonna do?

Don't get me wrong I think America's armed forces are the best trained in the world, and right they aren't there to be happy but this guerilla street warfare is interrupting the peace process, the situation sounds very whacked over there right now!

Hooray for the heads of odai and Qusai on pikes, though if weren't for their torturous murderous fetishes they might have been ok blokes, Into big guns and buxom broads and all. Heck isn't it every mafioso or gangbangers dream to have their own totalitarian empire?
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,551
Points
24
Re: Re: Ugh...

Michael Stumpf said:
Pete -

I've noticed how often we tend to think alike. You must be an incredibly intelligent person. ;)
Funny thing, I've noticed too. I've even noticed our writing styles have some similarities. You must be extremely intelligent, as I most certainly am. ;)

The more we get into this story of the intel problems, the less it has "legs" to me. It doesn't matter. We fabricated reasons to attack Mexico to take half their nation from them in the 1840s, we did it again in an attempt to acquire Cuba in the 1890s, we did it again to advance our position in the Cold War in Vietnam in the 1960s. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's the nature of politics; it's a means to an end.

My point since at least six months ago has been about the plain old commitment and resolve of the American people to the complete rebuilding of another nation. Anyone who thought we could sweep in, remove a dictator, appoint (annoint) a new leader and government in two years or less was out of their minds. Even after the U.S. Civil War ended in 1865, Federal troops occupied the former Confederacy for twelve more years. How long have troops been stationed in Germany or Japan? Ever since 1945. We will be in Iraq for a very long time.

And if you need an example of our lack of national resolve, look at Mike D.'s comment about how losing 2-3 troops a day will "cause the stuff to hit the fan soon." It's sad to say, and this is not a knock on Mike's personal resolve and patriotism, but I think he's right. Any enemy who thinks all he has to do to stay in the war is knock off 2-3 of our guys each day has a pretty good chance of not losing (notice I didn't say winning) the war, and makes them wonder if we were "in it to win it" anyway.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
CNN just reported the photos of the bodies are coming !!!


Woo HOO!!! SCREENSAVER!!
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,991
Points
30
[Rant] That wasn't graphic. CNN is full of it. The road North out of Kuwait City in 91 was graphic - in full puke-o-rama stench-o-vision. The stench of rotten burnt out corpses in dead Iraqi tanks at 73-Eastings, now that was graphic. This is one of the biggest problems with America. We send our young men and women into harm's way and yet we don't want to see their handiwork or what they are fighting to stop. We are afraid it might upset us. Shit, it might make us stay up at night thinking some hard realities through. It might make us think there is trouble in the world that needs to be dealt with though superior firepower and steely resolve. Remember when those thugs drug those service men though the streets in Somalia. I sure as hell do. Those men paid the price of our being pansies (original word changed) as a nation.

Folks we have been shielded from reality too long. Had any of you truly seen the real version (not a cleaned up version with which CNN titillates middle America ) of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaiti people and what those terrorists did to that reporter in Pakistan you would be asking CNN for the satisfaction of a full body shot and autopsy photos of those two rotten bastards. You would have had no problem sending troops back there to kill a tyrant and all that supported him.

We live in a fantasy land where lesbian-organic-food coops and recycling make us feel good about ourselves. We ignore the unpleasentries in life, like brutal dictators killing millions. We let people tell us lies to our face and we are too polite to call them lying bastards. Who has called all the Arab nations on the carpet and asked them why they allow the Palastinians to suffer. That problem is simple to solve. Who has killed more Arabs than any nation in history? So-Damn-Insane is your hero there. Let's see the press cover that story with as much vigor as they cover the he-said she said of some stupid jock and his ****.

And when the news starts to upset us we demand a change in foreign policy, we don't intensify our resolve, and we get like France. Grow up America, it’s a mean ass world and somebody’s got to keep it straight or it will end up in the crapper. [/rant]
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,551
Points
24
el Guapo said:
[Rant] That wasn't graphic. CNN is full of it.

Folks we have been shielded from reality too long. We live in a fantasy land where lesbian-organic-food coops and recycling make us feel good about ourselves.

And when the news starts to upset us we demand a change in foreign policy, we don't intensify our resolve, and we get like France.

Grow up America, it’s a mean ass world and somebody’s got to keep it straight or it will end up in the crapper. [/rant]
I could not agree with you more on almost all of your points.

1. Those photos were not graphic. Your average R-rated horror flick is more graphic than that.

2. We Americans have been shielded from reality for far too long. We like things too neat, too clean, too sanitized, too carefully packaged, and nothing about war is any of those.

3. Our resolve does have to intensify if we are going to be a success in Iraq. Any nation that has been brutalized for years knows what reality is, and usually is prepared to fight a battle of wills and attrition. Are we?

4. And this is where I differ with you on the war effort. I never thought our nation had the will and resolve to do what needed to be done, and we should not have started this effort because of that. All Iraq has to do was play "not to lose" to win the war -- or more accurately, to cause our withdrawal.

They only want to outlast us there, and that's something that we impatient Americans are particularly bad at.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
pete-rock said:
And this is where I differ with you on the war effort. I never thought our nation had the will and resolve to do what needed to be done, and we should not have started this effort because of that. All Iraq has to do was play "not to lose" to win the war -- or more accurately, to cause our withdrawal.
P-R,

I can certainly see where you're coming from on this, and I even agree to an extent. But the difference I see with this administration is - and I mean this in a good way - with respect to the media's (not, I believe, the public's) squeamishness on continuing difficulties in Iraq, they just don't seem to give a sh**. I don't think we'll see a withdrawal under any circumstance (political or otherwise) under this administration until the job is done over there. I think Bush is willing to lose the presidency before turning tail in Iraq.

I don't think that by and large, the American public is losing its resolve, either. I know what you and EG are reacting to, but I've never thought the media reflected the public very much at all - just because CNN's not grown up doesn't mean that the people aren't. I think the opposite, actually.

Things in Iraq are going far, far better than we're being led to believe by the news. I've gotten too many e-mails from friends over there that don't square at all with what I'm reading in the papers and seeing on TV. Somebody's lying, or not telling the whole truth, and I don't think it's my service buddies. I think most people instinctively know this.

On this one (once again) I am not buying one damn thing that CNN, Reuters, the NYT, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc. are selling.
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,551
Points
24
El Feo said:
I don't think we'll see a withdrawal under any circumstance (political or otherwise) under this administration until the job is done over there. I think Bush is willing to lose the presidency before turning tail in Iraq.
Here's another point we agree on. Bush has staked his entire presidency on fighting terrorism worldwide in general, and in Iraq and Afghanistan (let's not forget them) in particular. If that ship goes down, he's going with it. And I actually admire that in a leader, whether I agree or not.

But do voters share that same conviction? We are a nation of whiners to some extent. Some people will focus on the sluggish economy and the $4 billion a month Iraq price tag, and wonder what we can do to stabilize things here.

Things in Iraq are going far, far better than we're being led to believe by the news. I've gotten too many e-mails from friends over there that don't square at all with what I'm reading in the papers and seeing on TV. Somebody's lying, or not telling the whole truth, and I don't think it's my service buddies. I think most people instinctively know this.
Partially agree here. I think Iraq is going better than we're led to believe by the news, and we're about where I thought we'd be in the nation-building process. But I think we're not as far along as the Administration communicated to the American public that we would be. Hence some growing angst among the public.

On this one (once again) I am not buying one damn thing that CNN, Reuters, the NYT, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc. are selling.
Noticeably absent is FOX News. ;)
 

The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
Points
25
Irish one rantzzzzzzz

Folks we have been shielded from reality too long.
I agree, now let's call North Korea out and get it over with. There's going to be a war before Kim dies and a lot of people are going to die in the first minutes -estimates (if I remember correctly) are around a million in seoul. We need to do it before he has lots of nukes!

Don't you think it's time to take on a sick asshole that has got the muscle to back his rhetoric. I don't know, I look at Iraq and I see a defensless country, hell yeah US forces are doing a great job and in the short term these so called "gorilla fighters" will be put down. I look at DPRK and I see a country that will fight like a rabid demon. I'm confident the USA will absolutely win but with massive losses. If this country is going to set a precedent for this century we, the government better get off our collective asses and start walking the walk, talking the talk. Does nobody notice the erie complacency with which we treat the most vile of human beings? Years of neglect have led us to these moments where "peace" will come to an excruciating and painful end for every conscientious and ignorant citizen of the modern western world.

Yes we are to fun, we don't work hard enough anymore. Our country is not the best educated. SHAME ON US!!! Our children leave high school with out a comprehensive grasp of the English language, Mathematics and Science, a Foreign Language, practical skills in any trades (wood, metal, electronics, music instrument, construction techniques, drafting). Nothing is hard anymore, there is no civic education. We are losing a sense of community in this country. When you see trash on the road, do you pick it up? Children were once taught to make sure their community looked clean -I don't know that seems so basic and useful of a way to instill pride and sense of place. But no it's a me, me, me world and I don't have to pick your shit up.
I see the elderly couple on Saturday and Sunday morning pick up the garbage of some slob and I think about the great education those people have -that something so simple is so worthwhile. They are awake for the most uncivic community around them.

News. I hear about the cnn being this and that and the Fox being the other, how the cnn is liberal and fox is conservative. I say cut the bull shit and put your freaking thinking caps on. Come on people these news agencies all give the same damn dumbing your brain down content every freaking night and all day. Sure the commentary is different and ok that's fine if you want someone to be conservative and "tough" or liberal and "thoughtful" then yay, entertain yourself, hell I do. But as far as content these mucky mucks couldn't think outside of the coffers of Washington DC or New York societAY if they wanted to. All of 'em. If you want good press (In my not so humble for the moment opinion) read the Wall Street Journal or Financial Times. The tv is just making us dumb as a society. You want to know about the freaking war in Iraq? Go meet some people who are in the military or have relatives in the military. Go meet some people that are from Iraq. Go to a Veterans of Foreign Wars hang out. Do anything but SOLE'LY relying on the media for understanding what goes on in the world. People are very resourceful! Understand what the loss of life means.

sigh I'm done.
 
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SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
Our children leave high school with out a comprehensive grasp of the English language, Mathematics and Science, a Foreign Language, practical skills in any trades (wood, metal, electronics, music instrument, construction techniques, drafting).
Are you talking about the US or Chile? (with the exception that here is in spanish)
Here people that come out of the edjukashinal system can read and write, but they can't comprehend or write clearly.


Eventually society will go into a crisis and start up again, like the roman empire...

Now back to the topic:
I don't know much about your political system, but there should be strong proofs in order to impeach. Of course things were exagerated, that's a very old trick in politics...
If Clinton was impeached by his affair with Lewinsky, why the hell can't Bush be impeached?

Sure the war made Saddam fall, but seriously speaking: Could any type of weapon that he could have built, reached the US? NO! Sure, he could have floored Israel, but that's Israel's problem.
 

biscuit

Cyburbian
Messages
3,904
Points
25
SkeLeton said:
Sure, he could have floored Israel, but that's Israel's problem.
He could have tried to floor Isreal but guaranteed that Baghdad would now be nothing but a smoldering pile of bricks right now if he had.
 
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El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
SkeLeton said:
Now back to the topic:
I don't know much about your political system, but there should be strong proofs in order to impeach. Of course things were exagerated, that's a very old trick in politics...
If Clinton was impeached by his affair with Lewinsky, why the hell can't Bush be impeached?
At the risk of opening up a huge can of worms, Skel, here is what I am hereby stating is MERELY ONE MAN'S OPINION:

You're absolutely right, a law doesn't have to broken for a president to be impeached - Congress could theoretically impeach one over a policy disagreement, or even just because they didn't like the guy personally, if they considered that treason, bribery, a "high crime" or a misdemeanor. Therefore, like any president, Bush could clearly be impeached.

However, Clinton wasn't impeached for an affair - he was impeached for perjury in a civil suit deposition. By that act, which was strongly proved, he did break the law - one of the most basic of the very laws he was sworn to uphold - and denied a citizen of the United States (an alleged victim of sexual harrassment) her due process.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Irish I owe you a beer-very very very good rant

hehe and I have some time now called Washington the next Rome-the question is which Ceasar we are now under...


ewwww
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
I would support a twofer. Impeach Bush and remove Gray Davis. Or a nofer. Don't impeach/remove either.

They are both too special interest driven and are anti democracy. Send a comprehensive message on taking government back. But don't reward one party or another by selective removal.
 
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