• Ongoing coronavirus / COVID-19 discussion: how is the pandemic affecting your community, workplace, and wellness? 🦠

    Working from home? So are we. Come join us! Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no social distancing.

Guess the City 161

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
Well, since I got the last one, I suppose that I should post the next. ;-)

This is an image, which could also apply as a 'guess the road', that I got while on one of my countless roadtrips to places unknown across North America.

Enjoy!

Mike
 

Attachments

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
Not Shreveport, LA
Not Baton Rouge, LA
Not Montreal, QC
Not Louisville, KY
Not Kansas City, KS/MO
Not Topeka, KS

Keep trying!

;-)


Mike
 

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
DecaturHawk said:
Milwaukee?

Can you give us a hint?
DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!

Congrats! Milwaukee, WI it is :-D

This is on the EB I-94 to EB I-794 ramp at the I-43/94/794 'Marquette' interchange in downtown Milwaukee. A slight pan to the left would reveal the city's tall building skyline.

The building shown, Aldrich Chemical, will be disappearing within the next year or so as WisDOT begins ramping up a multi-year project to completely replace the interchange. The current interchange wraps around and _above_ the building (the SB I-43 'through' ramp passes directly over a lower part of it), which was retained at additional expense due to their being a critical USA DoD contractor when the original interchange was built in the 1960s.

Here are a couple of more images of this awesome agglomeration of ramps, one is just before the image above and the other is taken from the public observation deck at the Firstar (formerly 1st Wisconsin Bank) building. Apologies for the fuzzyness.

Mike
 

Attachments

DecaturHawk

Cyburbian
Messages
880
Points
22
mgk920 said:
DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!

Congrats! Milwaukee, WI it is :-D

This is on the EB I-94 to EB I-794 ramp at the I-43/94/794 'Marquette' interchange in downtown Milwaukee. A slight pan to the left would reveal the city's tall building skyline.

The building shown, Aldrich Chemical, will be disappearing within the next year or so as WisDOT begins ramping up a multi-year project to completely replace the interchange. The current interchange wraps around and _above_ the building (the SB I-43 'through' ramp passes directly over a lower part of it), which was retained at additional expense due to their being a critical USA DoD contractor when the original interchange was built in the 1960s.

Mike
I was pretty sure I recognized that overpass. So, you guessed mine (Waukegan) and I just guessed yours. Anybody else want to post one?
 

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
Oops, the first image didn't take. The middle big green sign now says "James Lovell St". He is the Wisconsinite who was an Astronaut on Apollos 8 and 13.

Here it is

Mike
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Markitect

Cyburbian
Messages
110
Points
6
mgk920 said:
The building shown, Aldrich Chemical, will be disappearing within the next year or so as WisDOT begins ramping up a multi-year project to completely replace the interchange. The current interchange wraps around and _above_ the building (the SB I-43 'through' ramp passes directly over a lower part of it), which was retained at additional expense due to their being a critical USA DoD contractor when the original interchange was built in the 1960s.
And before that, it was the Transport Building, which was the freight office and "intermodal terminal" for cargo being transfered between trucks and the electric trains of The Milwaukee Eelctric Railway & Light Company. At the base of the building was also the entrance to the transit system's partially-built-but-never-completed subway.
 

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
Markitect said:
And before that, it was the Transport Building, which was the freight office and "intermodal terminal" for cargo being transfered between trucks and the electric trains of The Milwaukee Eelctric Railway & Light Company. At the base of the building was also the entrance to the transit system's partially-built-but-never-completed subway.
That is an aspect of Milwaukee history that I have never heard of before. What else do you know about this never-completed subway?

Mike
 

Markitect

Cyburbian
Messages
110
Points
6
mgk920 said:
That is an aspect of Milwaukee history that I have never heard of before. What else do you know about this never-completed subway?
During the 1920s, TMER&L built a grade-separated, double-track, private right-of-way rapid transit line through the west side of the city and suburbs. The new line replaced the previous in-street route, which zigged and zagged its way through the same territory. However, there was a gap between the downtown interurban terminal (the Public Sercie Building at 3rd and Michigan Streets) and the beginning of the rapid transit line (at roughly 8th Street between Clybourn Street and St. Paul Avenue) where interurbans had to navigate some right-hand turns and in-street running for the few blocks in between those points. The "subway" was planned to eliminate that stretch of street running by directly linking the PSB (which would get an underground platform/boarding area) to the rapid transit line. So the proposed subway was really just going to be a tunnel about five blocks in length.

The western end of the tunnel was actually partially built, between 8th and 7th Streets. This was next to the newly-built Transport Building, which was the transfer terminal for TM's freight service (later became Aldrich Chemical). Of course, the Great Depression prevented TM from ever completing the tunnel project, so interurbans had to continue zig-zagging those few blocks down the middle of the streets until they were ultimately discontinued in 1951. Up through then, the incomplete subway approach was used for car storage. All of this was eventually obliterated by the time the freeway interchange was put in during the late-1960s. And the rapid transit line through the West Side itself became the right-of-way for the I-94 freeway.

There are very few details known about how the eastern end of the subway would have been arranged beneath the PSB, had it ever gotten that far. It could have been a simple stub-ended arrangement, or perhaps an underground loop around the block. Another challenge would have been passing beneath street trackage of the North Shore Line (at 6th and Clybourn Streets) and the Milwaukee Road tracks coming out of Union Station (near 4th and Everett Streets). But it is likely the only stops interurbans would have made in the tunnel would be at the underground PSB terminal, since the tunnel was only five-blocks long...so it would not have been like the usual kind of subway we're familiar with.

Of course, if this "subway" could have been completed, it could have been a catalyst for addional interurban tunnels in Milwaukee. Perhaps it could have motivated TM and the City to build a tunnel to link the Public Service Building with the private right-of-way of the northern interurban line on the North Side of the city (which had to traverse a few miles on city streets instead). Such an operation would have probably behaved more like a traditional subway too, since it would have been a distance of a few miles and at least a few intermediate stops, rather than just a few blocks and no intermediate stops.
 

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
Markitect said:
[snip to save space]

Of course, if this "subway" could have been completed, it could have been a catalyst for addional interurban tunnels in Milwaukee. Perhaps it could have motivated TM and the City to build a tunnel to link the Public Service Building with the private right-of-way of the northern interurban line on the North Side of the city (which had to traverse a few miles on city streets instead). Such an operation would have probably behaved more like a traditional subway too, since it would have been a distance of a few miles and at least a few intermediate stops, rather than just a few blocks and no intermediate stops.
Very interesting indeed, Thanx!

I sometimes ponder what North America's transport system would look like today had automobiles not caught on like they did in the 1920s. At that time, the USA had an impressive, very well developed network of privately operated electric inter-urban street car lines connecting many (most?) cities of any importance. Here in northeast Wisconsin, I am aware of active lines that ran between Kaukauna and Fond du Lac (through Appleton, Menasha, Neenah and Oshkosh), as well as from Sheboygan to points south.

At their peak (about the mid-1920s or so), it was ALMOST possible to travel between NYC and points deep in Wisconsin by using only interurbans. Had the automobile not caught on, I estimate that those last few gaps (mostly in Ohio and Pennsylvania) would have been filled in by about 1930, making that potential adventure a reality.

After 1930, interurbans declined rapidly and only a very small handfull (the Chicago, South Shore and South Bend is the best known example) operate to this day.

Mike
 

Markitect

Cyburbian
Messages
110
Points
6
mgk920 said:
Here in northeast Wisconsin, I am aware of active lines that ran between Kaukauna and Fond du Lac (through Appleton, Menasha, Neenah and Oshkosh), as well as from Sheboygan to points south.
There was also an interurban line between Green Bay and Kaukauna.
 

Bear Up North

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
9,329
Points
31
mgk .....you could take that "pondering" one (1) step farther. What if the automobile WAS developed into the success it was but it was primarily developed in someplace such as Germany? Seems to me that America's influence in the development of automobiles was a prerequisite for our ability to respond to Pearl Harbor.

We can thank Henry Ford and Rosie The Riveter for that.

Bearstein
 

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
Markitect said:
There was also an interurban line between Green Bay and Kaukauna.
I was thinking that there was, too, but I have never learned what route it took. All of it that I am first-hand aware of is a few blocks on the northeast side of Kaukauna where a grade eminates from a city street. From there to De Pere/Green Bay, I am unaware of a parallel grade along the CN's ex CNW Green Bay line (like there is between Little Chute and Appleton, as well as between Oshkosh and Fond du Lac) and the pre-1930s roads between Kaukauna and De Pere may be too hilly.

The line followed roads between Appleton and Menasha and between Neenah and Oshkosh.

Looks like it's time for some air-photo reconnaisance. ^o)

Bear Up North said:
mgk .....you could take that "pondering" one (1) step farther. What if the automobile WAS developed into the success it was but it was primarily developed in someplace such as Germany? Seems to me that America's influence in the development of automobiles was a prerequisite for our ability to respond to Pearl Harbor.

We can thank Henry Ford and Rosie The Riveter for that.
Historians write PhD theses while pondering the 'What Ifs' had single events gone differently in World History. They are fascinating to think about. ;-)

Mike
 

Kovanovich

Cyburbian
Messages
180
Points
7
mgk920 said:
I was thinking that there was, too, but I have never learned what route it took. All of it that I am first-hand aware of is a few blocks on the northeast side of Kaukauna where a grade eminates from a city street. From there to De Pere/Green Bay, I am unaware of a parallel grade along the CN's ex CNW Green Bay line (like there is between Little Chute and Appleton, as well as between Oshkosh and Fond du Lac) and the pre-1930s roads between Kaukauna and De Pere may be too hilly.

The line followed roads between Appleton and Menasha and between Neenah and Oshkosh.

Looks like it's time for some air-photo reconnaisance. ^o)



Historians write PhD theses while pondering the 'What Ifs' had single events gone differently in World History. They are fascinating to think about. ;-)

Mike

Along a similar line, it would be interesting to do a study of subways that were planned but never built. Perhaps this has been done and perhaps it has already been subject of discussion on Cyburbia and I am simply too lazy to find it. I know a number of cities had subway systems in the works when the growth of the private automobile and/or the Depression brought an end to the plans.
 

Markitect

Cyburbian
Messages
110
Points
6
mgk920 said:
I was thinking that there was, too, but I have never learned what route it took. All of it that I am first-hand aware of is a few blocks on the northeast side of Kaukauna where a grade eminates from a city street. From there to De Pere/Green Bay, I am unaware of a parallel grade along the CN's ex CNW Green Bay line (like there is between Little Chute and Appleton, as well as between Oshkosh and Fond du Lac) and the pre-1930s roads between Kaukauna and De Pere may be too hilly.

The line followed roads between Appleton and Menasha and between Neenah and Oshkosh.

Looks like it's time for some air-photo reconnaisance. ^o)
These books are helpful. They contain a wealth of information--detailed histories, lots of photos, equipment rosters, and tons of maps. All of them were published by the Central Electric Railfans' Association (CERA) back in the 1960s-70s, so they are long out of print and sometimes hard to find.

Badger Traction (CERA Bulletin # 111) - covers all of Wisconsin's streetcar/interurban lines outside of the Milwaukee area.

TM: The Milwaukee Electric Railway & Light Company (CERA Bulletin # 112) - covers all streetcar/interurban lines in southeastern Wisconsin that were part of the Milwaukee system.
 
Top