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Gun Control Favors DC Sniper

Are increased gun control measures the answer to the DC sniper?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 10.3%
  • No

    Votes: 15 51.7%
  • It's an issue greater than a simplistic answer of gun control

    Votes: 13 44.8%

  • Total voters
    29
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Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
Hmmmm....

I've read some articles about how gun control advocates think they have the answer to solve the sniper issue; but I'm wondering if they have it backwards...

I'm wondering if strong gun control measures and a generally unarmed public favors the sniper?

Is the sniper successful because he operates in a shooting gallery of easy, defenseless targets that can't (won't) defend themselves?

Is it not true that your local PD and easy access to 911 can keep us all safe?

Another point: Gun control advocates currently target handguns and "assault rifles". However, the sniper may very well be using a single shot bolt action deer rifle. His murders have been with one well aimed shot. Such a rifle would be the most accurate and a typical weapon of a sniper.

Seems like gun control makes about as much sense as CSD and SUVs...
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
I'm a firm believer in the fact that if you want to kill someone you're going to do it, whether with a gun, frying pan, kitchen knife, etc.

Yes, there are plenty of bolt action .223's out there and it is a good possibility that is what this guy is doing. There have been numerous studies conducted by both the NRA and criminoligists with no ties to the NRA that have found when the number of citizens "carrying" goes up, crime goes down.

It's simple logic, if these two-bit thugs start getting whacked every time they try to knock off a liquor store, they're gonna eventually wise up, or be more careful in the targets they pick (the ones that aren't armed).

The "ballistic fingerprinting" thing is just plain stupid. If you were dumb enough to go to a store, buy a gun, and then commit a murder with it, you're going to get caught quick anyway. Now don't try this at home, but if you were to take a rat-tail file and stick down the barrel of your gun you've altered the "fingerprint" thereby making the one on file useless. Even easier, how about going on Ebay and just buying a new barrel and switching them out?

Drugs are illegal, and they are still everywhere. Take away guns from the law abiding and you will still have guns, but now you've raised the gun trade to the levelof the drug trade.

I think the gov't just needs to start enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Start locking these people up for a LONG time. Use a gun to commit a crime, go to jail. It's that simple!

It is already illegal to kill someone, shoot someone, carry a gun without a permit, etc. Start enforcing it. Think of all the criminals we could of locked up if the Brady Bill was enforced. It is ILLEGAL for a convicted felon the attempt to purchase a firearm. Yet, the Brady Bill succeeded in locking up a whoppin 7 people!!! No what is up with that?? These are the statistics you won't hear from Sarah Brady.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
More gun controls are not the answer. We can't even enforce the restrictions already in place. A guy I went to college with proved it to me when he went to agun show and openly - nothing covert or secretive about the transaction - bought two automatic weapons that by his descriptions were completely illegal. Now, if we can't stop THAT kind of 'contraband' how the heck are we going to patrol the simple .223's that are out there in prolific numbers??
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
I think gun control is a total joke. The people who buy their guns the legitamate way are the least likely to use it to commit a crime. All gun control does is affect the way that law abiding people purchase firearms. Those who use guns to commit crimes typically get their guns through illegal means.

The gun control advocates will undoubtably use the sniper as a way to push their agenda.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Everyone is talking about gun control here
and i dont think it would and will do a thing to stop this sort of action

yha so everyone is armed but they are not shooting at criminals-they cant see him and my god what if they shot the wrong person and killed them?

having weapons has not and will not save any of these poor souls that have gotten shot. this is not the old west where you can shoot it out in the street.

yha maybe that gun in your purse will stop the attempted carjacking etc but its not going to stop a terrorist or serial killer.

the police here keep fumbleing the ball-and folks die
 
Messages
5,353
Points
31
All gun controls laws do is keep relatively normal people like me from making impulse gun purchases. I'm willing to be that most of the guns on the street are illegal anyway. I can't imagine a "two-bit thug" acquiring a gun through the proper means.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Bravo!

Everyone of you gets a Golden el Guapo post award for rational thinking.

 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Planderella said:
All gun controls laws do is keep relatively normal people like me from making impulse gun purchases. I'm willing to be that most of the guns on the street are illegal anyway. I can't imagine a "two-bit thug" acquiring a gun through the proper means.
That reminds me of my favorite Homer Simpson line, when he goes to the gun shop:

"I have to wait three days?! Awwww..... But I might not be mad in three days."
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
I used to be a big fan of the death penalty till i had to prepare a white paper on both sides for a debate-and until DNA has set so many innocent people free.

it bothers me, moraly it bothers me to know we have sent to folks to jail-to die for crimes they did not do.

i donno if the legal system were overhauled and ever slightly fair i might be more pro death but right now i cant honestly say i support it.

my G*d has not given me the ability to see and know for sure if someone was guilty or to take another mans life. i know others here will disagree but i personaly could not do it.

but then again the sniper-well i wish he would just take his own life or the cops shoot him and be done with it

its a quandry i have no easy answers to-but thats how i know im a fair and rational human being and not an animal.
 
Messages
3,690
Points
27
bturk said:


That reminds me of my favorite Homer Simpson line, when he goes to the gun shop:

"I have to wait three days?! Awwww..... But I might not be mad in three days."
Ah... my very favorite Simpsons episode!

As for the death penalty. In theory, I am all in favor.... however, in practice, I agree with Danie. It makes me physically ill when I hear of innocent people who have paid with their lives for crimes they didn't commit. I just don't think that even 1 innocent life for 100 guilty is an acceptable margin.
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
I'll wade in as a canadian, who has gun control and it does not stop murder.

Two examples both done with legal guns in small communities.

1) Argumant over poaching. person accused goes home, saws off shot gun, returns and kills the game warden. Alcohol was a factor, but the gun was legal.

2) Murder around the corner from my house. Family dispute goes terribly wrong. dead husband. Legal guns

Both of these examples are from rural areas where people know what guns do and how to use them. The guns were both legally acquired and registered, for a long period of time in the first example.

With the last bought of gun legislation my family has disposed of all of our guns, including 150 year old family shotguns as the infringement on our rights outweighed our enjoyment and use of the firearms.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
KMateja said:


Ah... my very favorite Simpsons episode!

As for the death penalty. In theory, I am all in favor.... however, in practice, I agree with Danie. It makes me physically ill when I hear of innocent people who have paid with their lives for crimes they didn't commit. I just don't think that even 1 innocent life for 100 guilty is an acceptable margin.
And yet, we like to believe that we have one of the most refined legal systems in the world. It will be intersting how history portrays America in the 19th - 21st centuries.
 
Messages
5,353
Points
31
The Dealth Penalty is NOT the Answer!!!

If a person is crazy enough to kill innocent people, apparently just for the sake of doing so, you think he's going to care whether or not his ass fries in chair once found guilty in a court of his peers (if there is such a thing...where are you going to find 12 morally corrupt, unstable people just like him to participate in jury duty)??
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Re: The Dealth Penalty is NOT the Answer!!!

Planderella said:
If a person is crazy enough to kill innocent people, apparently just for the sake of doing so, you think he's going to care whether or not his ass fries in chair once found guilty in a court of his peers (if there is such a thing...where are you going to find 12 morally corrupt, unstable people just like him to participate in jury duty)??
I look at the death penalty this way....at least we the taxpayers, don't have to feed him/her, take care of their medical expenses, etc. for the rest of their natural life.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
no but they rott on death row for 10 years or more and tie up the courts with appeals and get all kinds of beniffits to boot

i dont get it
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,551
Points
24
On the other hand...

Mike DeVuono said:
It's simple logic, if these two-bit thugs start getting whacked every time they try to knock off a liquor store, they're gonna eventually wise up, or be more careful in the targets they pick (the ones that aren't armed).
I just don't think two-bit thugs use that kind of logic; actually, they usually employ none.

Shouldn't we be more frightened of a DC metro area, for example, where everyone is armed and starts to take the law into their own hands? Thirteen people have been shot so far; how many more would've been shot because a guy in the Home Depot parking lot thought another guy was about to shoot him, and he was just loading some 2x4s in his pickup? How many more would've been shot because a guy at the gas station saw some rustling in the nearby woods, and a kid was walking the dog? I can't see that aspect of what works in rural areas working in metro areas.

I don't know; I'm comfortable with it being difficult for rational people to own guns, because it's not rational people who are the problem. I also recognize that if we restrict gun ownership we contribute to an explosion of the gun black market and hurt most the people who choose to own and use guns responsibly (hunting, target shooting, etc.). And in the end, we would become easier targets.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Re: On the other hand...

pete-rock said:




How many more would've been shot because a guy in the Home Depot parking lot thought another guy was about to shoot him, and he was just loading some 2x4s in his pickup? How many more would've been shot because a guy at the gas station saw some rustling in the nearby woods, and a kid was walking the dog?
Going a little off the deep end don't you think??
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Re: On the other hand...

pete-rock said:
And in the end, we would become easier targets.
Let's go off the deep end from the other side of the pool, shall we...

"The font of freedom is from the end of a gun in the hands of a free citizen.
- el Guapo 2002

"Gun control or freedom - Pick one"
- el Guapo 2002

"I'd rather be on a airplane where every citizen had an Uzi than where four guys have box cutters."
- el Guapo 2002

"An armed society is a safe society"
- el Guapo 2002

"Too many people are too quick to call for the surrender of their freedoms at the first hint of danger. These people are more dangerous to a free society than the sniper. He only has one vote."
- el Guapo 2002

Nutty enough for ya?
 

troy

Member
Messages
68
Points
4
The question in the name of the thread and the question on the poll itself don't match, so I voted yes-gun control favors the sniper, when the answer is no-more gun control couldn't prevent the sniper...

I personally don't think that arming the victims would have saved them. I don't think the sniper would have been unable to escape if bystanders had been armed.

I do think that maybe, by this time, the sniper may have been hit.

The problem with arming everyone and in dealing with a sniper attack is that the sniper's location and identity isn't immediately obvious to witnesses, unless they just happened to be looking the right way at the right time.

So, the sniper fires, someone dies. Everyone nearby draws a gun and starts looking for the shooter...

Who looks like a shooter? Everyone with a gun drawn!

Perhaps someone would spot and fire at the sniper, but the odds are just as good that an innocent might be mistaken for the sniper and shot.

Arming everyone might help, but it is just as likely that the bodycount would go even higher due to cases of mistaken identity while the sniper continues to operate from concealed positions and escape.

Arming everyone is more effective in detering more mundane crimes than in dealing with a sniper threat.
 

mugbub

BANNED
Messages
67
Points
4
Gun Nuts

I do not understand, with the exception of hunters, why people (moslty white males w/ military background) collect and are obsessed with guns. WTF is it with you guys? Why do you have to have multitudes of weapons? You should hear some of you quoting gun makes and models with their specifications.

El Gaupo forgot one of his famous quotes. It was something like "such and such type of gun fired from x yards will turn a human head into red mist." Why are you saying this? This is the type of thinking that these killers have.

I agree that gun control wouldn't have stopped this DC person. The problem is this obsession with guns, and the warped logic that we all need them at all times. This serial freaks can pass off their arsenal as a hobby right up until they go haywire.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Re: Gun Nuts

mugbub1 said:
El Gaupo forgot one of his famous quotes. It was something like "such and such type of gun fired from x yards will turn a human head into red mist." Why are you saying this?
Because it is true. I’ve seen it happen. I don't give a flying monkey's ass it they don’t like me for saying it.

I view my role as an educator. I try to present to the anti-gun crowd a distilled version of my belief that the only way to guarantee a free people their freedom is to put up with the burden of an armed citizenry. A disarmed people soon suffer genocide. Some people now think they are too sophisticated these days to need to defend themselves against a variety of criminal and governmental threats. I deliver the message that freedom has a price. A disarmed person is a subject, not a citizen.

The government and the people occasionally need to re-learn the lessons of the African Slaves, the Khmer Rouge, Waco, Kent State, Krystalnacht....
http://www.donkates.com/genocide.html
http://www.universalway.org/guncontroltable.html
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
Re: Gun Nuts

mugbub1 said:
I do not understand, with the exception of hunters, why people (moslty white males w/ military background) collect and are obsessed with guns.
Well I do not understand, with the exception of farmers, why people (delete racial/ethnic stereotype) collect and are obsessed with growing vegetables/flowers.

Well I do not understand, with the exception of professional photographers, why people (delete racial/ethnic stereotype) collect and are obsessed with cameras.

Well I do not understand, with the exception of bankers, why people (delete racial/ethnic stereotype) collect and are obsessed with coins.

Well I do not understand, with the exception of librarians, why people (delete racial/ethnic stereotype) collect and are obsessed with books.

Well I do not understand, with the exception of Lance Armstrong, why people (delete racial/ethnic stereotype) collect and are obsessed with bicycles.

Well I do not understand, with the exception of musicians, why people (delete racial/ethnic stereotype) collect and are obsessed with music CDs.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I am just sooo confused,

or could it be a H-O-B-B-Y...

Where is Mastiff when we need him?
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,464
Points
29
As a com-symp liberal (just kidding) I will still have to say "No" to more gun control. Too late. There are too many weapons already out there, and we have relatively porous borders.

"Education" is not the answer either. Some people and their progency are just genetically predestined to "accidentally" do themselves in. (God, am I cranky. Post-vacation blues.)

Plus, I like the idea of an armed citizenry. Now that the Ashcroft crowd is in power, I may need someday to join a guerilla army (just kidding, FBI Internet monitors).

Although, Runner, I might point out that not many "hobbies" are dedicated solely to devices whose sole purpose (except for hunters) is to kill human beings. There is a difference.

Note that I agree with you that more regs are not the answer. But, I myself cannot understand the gun collecting passion either.
 
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Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
People collect things like samuri swords and military knives and nobody calls them kinve or sword nuts. My grandpa collects guns and uses them for neither killing nor hunting. He has used them at a shooting range and he displays them in a locked cabinet. Almost all of them appreciate in value too. Many are collectors items. That being said, I would never think of my grandpa as "obsessed" with guns. He is just interested in rare, hard to find, and unique guns.

While I do not own any guns (ok, I have a bb/pellet gun) and I do not have any interest in collecting guns or hunting, I do not think that people who collect guns as a hobby should be labeled as freaks. The freaks are the people who use guns to kill people, threaten people, rob people, or intimidate people. It is a way overused cliche, but guns don't kill people, people kill people. Gun control accomplishes nothing.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
jtfortin said:
People collect things like samuri swords and military knives and nobody calls them kinve or sword nuts.
I do!

OT: I have a WWII German Officers Dagger in great condition with the velvet chord and tassles inatct. Found it in grandpa's garage rafters when we cleared out the estate. No one knows where he got it (he wasnt in the European theater). I have heard various stories about the legality of possessing these things. eBay will not accept postings for them. Anyone know where to get value estimates on German war artifacts?
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Dude!

Totally legal to posses unless they are stolen. Kicking a county's ass and taking their weapons doesn’t count as stealing. eBay won't accept them because the sale of NAZI memorabilia is prohibited in Germany, France and I think Israel and various other liability issues involved with weapons. There is a thriving market for those items. Just get on the net and search.

I recovered a NAZI fork and twenty bayonets once when digging up a machinegun nest/ordnance cache in Germany. American Army officers stole the bayonetes as I was digging them up. Pukes

http://www.german-militaria.co.uk/
http://www.kentucky-museum.com/military_german_war_booty.htm
It looks like it might be worth something.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
There is a big difference between gun collectors and people who just own guns. Some can be exquisitely detailed and outstanding examples of craftsmanship. Antiques carry with them the story of there eras. These are responsible gun owners. How many times have you heard of a $10,000 gun, or a civil war era musket used in an armed robbery?

Marksmanship is a legitimate sport. I am not a hunter but I do enjoy shooting. That is why I own guns.

I do not believe there is a very credible argument to be made that an armed populace will prevent tyranny. The rounds from my .22, .357, .45 or shotgun are not even going to dent a Bradley, much less an M-1 Abrahms tank though I suspect it might rile them enough to turn their .30 or .50 cal machine guns, TOWs, grenade launchers, mortars, or other weapons on me.

More innocent people are probably killed or injured by people by people defending themselves than actual outlaws. Let people walk around armed? I don't think that will affect criminals so much, but a lot of the idiots who will carry around guns will be more than a little trigger happy.

The solution isn't banning guns. There are too many people who use them legitimately and they have the constitutional right to do so. Gun owners need to be responsible people. Those who abuse guns (including criminals) need to be dealt with harshly.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Re: Dude!

El Guapo said:
Totally legal to posses unless they are stolen. Kicking a county's ass and taking their weapons doesn’t count as stealing. eBay won't accept them because the sale of NAZI memorabilia is prohibited in Germany, France and I think Israel and various other liability issues involved with weapons. There is a thriving market for those items. Just get on the net and search.

I recovered a NAZI fork and twenty bayonets once when digging up a machinegun nest/ordnance cache in Germany. American Army officers stole the bayonetes as I was digging them up. Pukes

http://www.german-militaria.co.uk/
http://www.kentucky-museum.com/military_german_war_booty.htm
It looks like it might be worth something.
THIS IS IT:
Army Officer's Dagger By Paul Weyersberg & Co. Early Model with Orange grip. Original hanger. Excellent. Price: $600.00
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,464
Points
29
You guys all have a good argument. Michael: I agree that a few citizens armed with 22s will not stop tyranny. But, I still do believe in the right of self-=defense, despite the accidents and idiocies.

I'll grant the arguments about craftsmanship. There are some collectors I have known that are a little too interested in "stopping power" and the like. Those people bug me a little bit.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Michael Stumpf said:
I do not believe there is a very credible argument to be made that an armed populace will prevent tyranny. The rounds from my .22, .357, .45 or shotgun are not even going to dent a Bradley, much less an M-1 Abrahms tank though I suspect it might rile them enough to turn their .30 or .50 cal machine guns, TOWs, grenade launchers, mortars, or other weapons on me.
Most revolutions are started, fought and completed by people with inferior weapons. The Irish have fought the Brits to the negotiating table with AKs and less. Other examples loom large - anemly our own. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot all initiated gun contol programs first before the genocide started.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
BKM i just saw your sig file

lol being a planner in Fairfax i am about to fall out of my chair laughing

how did you KNOW that?

Fairfax=hell
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,464
Points
29
I'm not sure where I saw the news story. :), but it is a classic! If I remember, the city denied a Use Permit or something to a church, hence the fire and brimstone.

My Planning Degree is actually from UVa, so I am somewhat familiar with that great "architectural asteroid belt" known to the world as Northern Virginia. Northern Virginia was my introduction to subdivisions consisting of 200 identical "Colonial" ranchers built of pressboard and vinyl siding for $200K.

At least you guys don't pave and sound-wall EVERYTHING, like out here. :) And, there are other colors than "brown" in the landscape. God, we need rain.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
umm you have not been here in a while

Maryland is soundwalling the hell out of 495 from bridge to bridge-but at least they put some nice landscape between it and the road.

i hate sound walls personaly
 
Messages
130
Points
6
Wait a friggin' minute here. Wanton slaughter has paralyzed the DC area for the better part of a month because of a madman with a high-powered sniper rifle. And only THREE people in this forum think controls which would...

a. keep deadly firearms out of the hands of whack-jobs like this one

b. license, catalog, fingerprint, body-cavity-check and otherwise know everything about this whack-job and his new gun

c. generally keep these weapons out of the hands of ANYbody

...are a good idea?

I'm aghast! I better get home and eat some candy.

Happy Halloween!
 
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