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Heaven On Earth: The Most Beautiful Town In America (LONG)

ablarc

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
713
Points
20
solipsa, you might want to add: with the same zoning provisions, the same tree ordinances, the same sign regulations, the same road standards, the same tired hackneyed theories...

And many Cyburbians are in charge of enforcing this sameness.

You don't have to look very far in this Forum to see where all this sameness comes from; have you seen how many requests there are for sample ordinances on this or that subject? Maybe if we stopped asking for prototypes to customize, and actually made something up from scratch as different as possible from all the others, we would in time be able to tell one place from another.

One thing's for sure: when you're in Carmel, you know where you are.

.
 
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eightiesfan

Cyburbian
Messages
112
Points
6
back from the dead bump

I spent a few days in Carmel earlier this year. I can see how it may be bit limited as far as diversity goes, but it is an absolutely beautiful place and a definite must see.

What other coastal towns in California (or other states) have this kind of feel to them? Not nec. the wealth, but the laid back vibe. I'd love to live in a coastal California city but the cost of living is insane. Any suggestions?
 

imaplanner

Cyburbian
Messages
6,672
Points
28
eightiesfan said:
I spent a few days in Carmel earlier this year. I can see how it may be bit limited as far as diversity goes, but it is an absolutely beautiful place and a definite must see.

What other coastal towns in California (or other states) have this kind of feel to them? Not nec. the wealth, but the laid back vibe. I'd love to live in a coastal California city but the cost of living is insane. Any suggestions?

Crescent City.


I should add that having lived in coastal california my entire life until very recently - I am quite often wondering what the heck I was thinking moving away.
 

dobopoq

Cyburbian
Messages
1,002
Points
21
Thanks for resurrecting this one eightiesfan. I hadn't seen it before.

It's worth mentioning that the 1971 Clint Eastwood film "Play Misty For Me", was filmed in Carmel-By-The-Sea. It features some decent seaside shots.

It is very beautiful but I agree with earlier sentiments that the town is really more like a wealthy neighborhood of a larger city. It is a rich person's ghetto.

But I like the way the architecture blends into nature. It's the antithesis of the overly-zoned, bulldoze everthing, cookie cutter mentality of mainstream developers. Minus the spectacular California oceanfront location, with the perfect climate and sky-high land prices, this type of develpment would be much more affordable. The house designs place a premium on uniqueness and coziness as opposed to the uniformity that results from more palatial square footages. As a wealthy community, it is far more respectable than the competitive extravagance of some Beverly Hills enclave of gated chateaus.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
imaplanner said:
Crescent City.


I should add that having lived in coastal california my entire life until very recently - I am quite often wondering what the heck I was thinking moving away.

Except what would it be like living next to prison guards? Post traumatic shock syndrom? . How can that not dehumanize someone, working in that horrible (yet, sadly, very, very necessary) place (Pelican Bay State Prison is the Super Super Max Prison for California. Hard core for the really hard core.). .
 

cololi

Cyburbian
Messages
1,183
Points
22
dobopoq said:
But I like the way the architecture blends into nature. It's the antithesis of the overly-zoned, bulldoze everthing, cookie cutter mentality of mainstream developers. Minus the spectacular California oceanfront location, with the perfect climate and sky-high land prices, this type of develpment would be much more affordable. The house designs place a premium on uniqueness and coziness as opposed to the uniformity that results from more palatial square footages. As a wealthy community, it is far more respectable than the competitive extravagance of some Beverly Hills enclave of gated chateaus.

Well said. While Carmel has turned into an enclave for the wealthy, the form of the city is certainly worth considering in terms of an alternative to the current development patterns of everywhere USA.
 

Clemson Grad

BANNED
Messages
18
Points
1
Wanigas? said:
Median value for all owner-occupied housing units = $660,200

Median gross rent = $1,120

Heaven on earth indeed!

Cost of living is never a concern to urban planners and liberals it seems. They beat up on the suburbs without acknowledging the fact that people move to the suburbs because the downtown areas are too expensive to live in...you get a lot more bang for the buck in the suburbs. Not to mention the suburbs are a lot safer. :)
 

jaws

BANNED
Messages
1,504
Points
21
Clemson Grad said:
Cost of living is never a concern to urban planners and liberals it seems. They beat up on the suburbs without acknowledging the fact that people move to the suburbs because the downtown areas are too expensive to live in...you get a lot more bang for the buck in the suburbs. Not to mention the suburbs are a lot safer. :)
Sound value theory is not a concern to you it seems. Value doesn't come from cost, it comes from the buyers. Downtown areas are expensive because more people want to live there and will pay higher prices to do so. The suburbs are cheap because they are much less valuable and thus less competitive.

If every town in America was built like this one, they would be quite affordable.
 

Clemson Grad

BANNED
Messages
18
Points
1
jaws said:
Sound value theory is not a concern to you it seems. Value doesn't come from cost, it comes from the buyers. Downtown areas are expensive because more people want to live there and will pay higher prices to do so. The suburbs are cheap because they are much less valuable and thus less competitive.

If every town in America was built like this one, they would be quite affordable.

Downtowns are more expensive because there is much less land and housing. The demand is not higher, the supply is just much less. I don't know too many average middle class workers dying to live downtown. If you are going to talk about demand, you also got to talk about supply...that's why it's called the law of supply and demand. :)
 

jaws

BANNED
Messages
1,504
Points
21
Clemson Grad said:
Downtowns are more expensive because there is much less land and housing. The demand is not higher, the supply is just much less. I don't know too many average middle class workers dying to live downtown. If you are going to talk about demand, you also got to talk about supply...that's why it's called the law of supply and demand. :)
What are you talking about? Downtowns have more density, thus more housing per unit of land than anywhere else, thus more supply. Yet it is still more expensive because it has a higher value than the suburbs. People would rather live downtown than in the suburbs otherwise they would not pay higher prices for the same amount of living room.
 

Clemson Grad

BANNED
Messages
18
Points
1
jaws said:
What are you talking about? Downtowns have more density, thus more housing per unit of land than anywhere else, thus more supply. Yet it is still more expensive because it has a higher value than the suburbs. People would rather live downtown than in the suburbs otherwise they would not pay higher prices for the same amount of living room.

Downtowns may have more density,but most of that is ghetto. There are few nice places to live in most downtowns, and as a result, it costs a lot to live in a nice house or apartment in downtown...demand is easily going to exceed this short suppy of nice housing. The reason it costs more in downtown is the supply does not equal the demand. That doesn't mean the demand is higher to live downtown than the suburbs. The suburbs would not be growing so rapidly if most people desired to live downtown...most downtowns are in a state of decay.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
Clemson Grad: There are some amazing generalizations in your "analysis." Many metropolitan areas do follow jaws' analysis: the outermost suburbs are definitely cheaper on the West Coast than central cities-because the latter are far more appealing to an educated population that can afford to pay ridiculous prices for small housing units.

I would also note that you are contradicting yourself. Either downtown is too expensive for the middle class-or downtown is nothing but dangerous ghettos Which is it? It generally can't be both.
 

Clemson Grad

BANNED
Messages
18
Points
1
BKM said:
Clemson Grad: There are some amazing generalizations in your "analysis." Many metropolitan areas do follow jaws' analysis: the outermost suburbs are definitely cheaper on the West Coast than central cities-because the latter are far more appealing to an educated population that can afford to pay ridiculous prices for small housing units.

I would also note that you are contradicting yourself. Either downtown is too expensive for the middle class-or downtown is nothing but dangerous ghettos Which is it? It generally can't be both.

Downtowns are both...slums with expensive housing for rich people mixed in. You have no understanding of the law of supply and demand. The outermost suburbs are cheaper because there is more land and housing available, thus more competition. There are not a lot of nice housing options in a downtown area, thus the housing costs more. If you take the example of Boulder Colorado, the city decided to restrict the amount of land that can be developed b/c they want it to remain a small town. As a result, housing costs went up. The demand did not increase dramatically for housing, but the supply was limited by the city. Your buddy implied that housing costs are a function of demand only, but they are a function of both demand and supply.
 

jaws

BANNED
Messages
1,504
Points
21
You are totally confused about cost, value, supply and demand. Costs are the sum total of goods that must be purchased in order to produce something. This has nothing to do with its value. I can purchase a lot of expensive materials, build something crappy, and it will have no value. I can purchase a lot of cheap materials, build something excellent, and it will have great value. This town is an example of it.

Value has only one determinant: the mind of the buyer. It doesn't matter if there are only three nice houses in ghetto Boulder. If those nice houses don't have greater value than those in the suburbs, people won't pay more for them. They won't bid up the price on the limited supply, no matter how limited it is. No matter how limited the supply of my crappy product is, it won't get a high price unless it has a high value.
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,282
Points
30
Carmel is....

A poster child that shows how the $$bling bling$$ spent by people who care about the town they live in, can influence the development of a community......

It seems to be on the verge of slipping into a condition that would make it indistinguishable from most Salvador Dali paintings:r: :D (I'm already proud of this quote by me)

Would I live there? Maybe, but I'm not a blue blooded multi-millionaire type, so I don't think it would work out.....plus I have other ideas for my lottery winnings;-)

It's kind of like an amusement park for old people who are really into art and overpriced everything......

I would like to visit after seeing all the great pictures and yes it certainly appears to be a contender for best town to "visit."
 

Clemson Grad

BANNED
Messages
18
Points
1
jaws said:
You are totally confused about cost, value, supply and demand. Costs are the sum total of goods that must be purchased in order to produce something. This has nothing to do with its value. I can purchase a lot of expensive materials, build something crappy, and it will have no value. I can purchase a lot of cheap materials, build something excellent, and it will have great value. This town is an example of it.

Value has only one determinant: the mind of the buyer. It doesn't matter if there are only three nice houses in ghetto Boulder. If those nice houses don't have greater value than those in the suburbs, people won't pay more for them. They won't bid up the price on the limited supply, no matter how limited it is. No matter how limited the supply of my crappy product is, it won't get a high price unless it has a high value.

Prices are set by supply and demand. That is economics 101. You can a nicer house in the suburbs than downtown for the same amount of money. Your point that a crappy product has a low price does not refute my arguement. A crappy house won't sell in the suburbs or downtown for a high price. However, a nicer house will cost more downtown than in the suburbs, and that's because there is less attractive housing in downtown areas, and the very limited supply leads to high prices. This is just common sense. If demand was the only factor driving prices, nice suburban housing would having higher prices than nice downtown housing, because most people want to move out to the suburbs where it's safer and they can get bigger houses and yards. The demand for suburban housing is much higher than the demand for downtown housing.
 
Messages
7,628
Points
29
Do Not Feed The Troll

Maybe we can all ignore Clemson Grad until a supermod can step in and deal with with the situation? This person does not appear to be seriously interested in joining the forum. They seem to just be trolling. No amount of logic and reasoning is likely to make a dent. Some folks are sick and twisted and get off on f***ing with people and watching their outraged reactions. It's entirely possible that everyone's upset is the only thing this individual is actually interested in getting out of their membership here, which seems likely to be very short-lived. Giving them what they want only fuels their sick interest.

I have already reported the posts for personal attacks and trolling. The best thing I can suggest is simply Do Not Feed The Troll while we wait for the mods to take appropriate action.

Just my 2 cents and I may regret posting it because doing so makes me a potential target of an obviously nasty individual.
 

Clemson Grad

BANNED
Messages
18
Points
1
Michele Zone said:
Maybe we can all ignore Clemson Grad until a supermod can step in and deal with with the situation? This person does not appear to be seriously interested in joining the forum. They seem to just be trolling. No amount of logic and reasoning is likely to make a dent. Some folks are sick and twisted and get off on f***ing with people and watching their outraged reactions. It's entirely possible that everyone's upset is the only thing this individual is actually interested in getting out of their membership here, which seems likely to be very short-lived. Giving them what they want only fuels their sick interest.

I have already reported the posts for personal attacks and trolling. The best thing I can suggest is simply Do Not Feed The Troll while we wait for the mods to take appropriate action.

Just my 2 cents and I may regret posting it because doing so makes me a potential target of an obviously nasty individual.

It's funny....there are people in here attacking southerners and conservatives as backwards....I just respond to that, and you and other leftwingers are calling me the troll? Why is that we can't have political divesity in here? Why can't a conservative disagree with a liberal in here? Do only liberals like you get freedom of speech? If i don't agree with your tax the crap out of people views, I'm a troll? Most americans do not support high taxes...you guys are the minority on that issue. You don't have a problem with biscuit and others calling people backward...i don't see you reporting them. If you are going to attack southerners and conservatives, I am going to challenge you on it. If you don't like that, don't attack southerners and conservatives.

Michele Zone said:
Maybe we can all ignore Clemson Grad until a supermod can step in and deal with with the situation? This person does not appear to be seriously interested in joining the forum. They seem to just be trolling. No amount of logic and reasoning is likely to make a dent. Some folks are sick and twisted and get off on f***ing with people and watching their outraged reactions. It's entirely possible that everyone's upset is the only thing this individual is actually interested in getting out of their membership here, which seems likely to be very short-lived. Giving them what they want only fuels their sick interest.

I have already reported the posts for personal attacks and trolling. The best thing I can suggest is simply Do Not Feed The Troll while we wait for the mods to take appropriate action.

Just my 2 cents and I may regret posting it because doing so makes me a potential target of an obviously nasty individual.

I just reported you for falsely accusing me of being a troll so I get thrown out of this forum. I'm also going to report biscuit and others who have called southerners and/or conservatives backward.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Messages
7,628
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29
I am calling you a troll because of your endless personal attacks. Because I have not yet seen you introduce yourself. Because I have not seen you post in any thread where you are not outraged and attacking people. Because you clearly have made no effort to learn the rules of the forum. If you go looking for something to be offended by, you will surely find it. But that doesn't mean that is all there is to Cyburbia.

If you would like to prove me wrong, perhaps you can take the time to politely introduce yourself in the Introduce Yourself forum, read the rules and stop with the personal attacks and multiple consecutive replies. And then find some threads to post in where you agree with people, not just seek out threads that offend you so you can attack people.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
19,337
Points
71
Moderator note:

Clemson, you're s**tting up too many threads. I understand your POV, but the way you're presenting it ... chill. Just chill.

I just got home. I don't have the time now to read through all the threads to see how all of this started. The mods and I will discuss this, but in the meantime ...

unitedvictoriousshalriejoseph3.jpg

 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
19,337
Points
71
Moderator note:

Thread opened. Clemson Grad has been banned. Please try to continue the discussion in a civil manner.
 

imaplanner

Cyburbian
Messages
6,672
Points
28
I like Carmel :) ;-)


Having spent quite a few afternoons there I would just have to say that the reason Carmel is not heaven on earth is the tourists. Never have I seen a small town with such bad traffic problems. Entirely due to tourists.

I suppose that's what happens when you have a place that is so great- it gets all clogged up with people and then it loses some of its attractiveness. In that sense can there ever be heaven on earth?

My comments strike me as slightly amusing since I have never lived in carmel and therefore have always been a tourist as well.
 

Lee Nellis

Cyburbian
Messages
1,369
Points
29
Thanks for the images. I liked your discussion of the increment of development, of scale. It is so important, so widely disregarded, and so difficult to re-establish once the conventional suburban pattern has taken hold.

I am not going to take issue with your "zoning voice." There is plenty of truth in it. But we all know that Carmel is not free of zoning. It is one of the most heavily-regulated places in the country. Give me Carmel's constituency, and I will give you the same results. Give me most other constituencies and I will have a hard time NOT giving you what you see everywhere else. We are in a battle with a developer right now over simply requiring a building be in front of the parking.

By the way, you haven't shown up in Vermont, yet. There are interesting properties for sale right now and I am writing a specific plan provision into the Town's bylaws that woud let you propose almost anything.
 

eightiesfan

Cyburbian
Messages
112
Points
6
How do the cities around Carmel compare? I didn't have much time to explore outside the Carmel area.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
eightiesfan said:
How do the cities around Carmel compare? I didn't have much time to explore outside the Carmel area.

Monterey is quite nice, if more downscale touristy.

My favorite is actually Pacific Grove, which is much less cutesy. It is an old turn-of-the-century Victroian and craftsma town with a wonderful seawall/rocky beach and a real pleasant down home feel (as down home as a town with $900,000 bungalows can be. :-c )

Salinas is inland and the county seat. Much more hardscrabble-if you like frou frou lettuces (spring mix) a lot of your lettuce comes from Salinas area. It's actually not a bad place, but it does struggle. Then there is the Golf Course area (Pebble Beach). It's beautiful, of course, but just a bunch of estates for the ultra-rich, not a traditional town but a giant subdivision (imo). Finally, there are a collection of hardscrabble coastal towns like Seaside that served the now closed Fort Ord military base.
 

eightiesfan

Cyburbian
Messages
112
Points
6
What little I got to see of Monterey looked really nice. I wish I would have had more time to explore the area.

900k for a place is a bit more than I'm looking to spend :p Any suggestions on areas of CA that are not so high? I know the area in general is not cheap, but I'm assuming some areas are much higher than others.

A bit off topic, but I did get to spend a day in Lake Tahoe and that is a beautiful place as well. I'd also suggest checking it out if you all are ever in the area. The color of the lake is incredible and surrounded by amazing snow covered peaks.
 

Richmond Jake

You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Messages
18,300
Points
44
eightiesfan said:
....Any suggestions on areas of CA that are not so high? I know the area in general is not cheap, but I'm assuming some areas are much higher than others. ....
The last I heard the Sierra Foothills in the gold country is still affordable.....relatively speaking. Or up in the Siskiyous.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
RichmondJake said:
The last I heard the Sierra Foothills in the gold country is still affordable.....relatively speaking. Or up in the Siskiyous.


Or maybe Crescent City (location of UltraMax Pelican Bay State Prison and home of "Cornfed"), Blythe-and Barstow. :p :D
 
Messages
1,580
Points
21
I remember visiting as a child. Apparently I saw some wicker chairs that were pleasing and announced that they were "tea chairs." I'm so English...
 
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