How do you regulate sculptures on commercial property?

[Repo Man]

How do different communities regulate things like outdoor sculptures or fountains on commercial property? Is it treated as landscaping? Signage? What types of approval process is required?

 

[boiker]

depends on the what the sculpture is.

If the sculpture is a giant McD logo..then it is a sign... if it's a sculpture of Ronald McD..again a sign. if it is an object or figure that could be put on any property without conveying a message as to the product or service provided at that faciltiy it is landscaping or art.

 

[ssc]

We had a developer propose a small sculpture park in our historic district. We looked at the sculpture as an element of the overall site plan - just like benches, landscaping, etc. However, when we demanded to know what the sculptures would look like, the developer claimed first amendment protection - said since it was art we could not regulate it. We turned him down anyway, for other reasons.

 

[Repo Man]

Here is the hypothetical situation ;-) :

A place that sells burgers and frozen custard wants a bunch of cow sculptures (like 20 or so) lined up. I think that it should be regulated as a sign because it is drawing attention to the business. Most of their products come from cows either as custard or meat. I think it goes beyond being a work of art and leans more towards an attention getting device. If this is approved, what will stop McDonalds across the street from putting up a bunch of Burger "sculptures"

 

[Becky'sWay]

If it is not advertising anything then it is an accessory use. I think a bunch of bronze cows would look better than a sign. Maybe you should just tell them that farms are not allowed in that district. Sounds like your law department needs to have an opinion on what constitutes a sign. Let me know what happens, this is interesting.

We had an interesting question here about 6 months ago, someone wanted to put a visa flag on their American flag pole. Sign. Couldn't do it.

 

[Zoning Goddess]

A steak restaurant in a nearby city put a fiberglass cow out front a few years ago, and I believe it was classified as a sign, but permitted to remain.

This seems to be one of those, "don't ask me to define what real "art" is, I just know it when I see it" kind of things.

Here is the hypothetical situation ;-) :

A place that sells burgers and frozen custard wants a bunch of cow sculptures (like 20 or so) lined up. I think that it should be regulated as a sign because it is drawing attention to the business. Most of their products come from cows either as custard or meat. I think it goes beyond being a work of art and leans more towards an attention getting device. If this is approved, what will stop McDonalds across the street from putting up a bunch of Burger "sculptures"

 

[SW MI Planner]

This is similar to the Big Boy issue we discussed a while back. Canton Twp said the Big Boy statue in front of the restaurant was a sign, and ordered it be removed:

http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11562

In April, the judge said the township should check with the arts commission for them to determine if it would be considered public art. The township basically decided that if the owner painted over the words "Big Boy" on the statues chest it wouldn't be considered a sign:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/editorial/0407/15/a10-210021.htm

I agree with Boiker:

If it is an object or figure that could be put on any property without conveying a message as to the product or service provided at that faciltiy it is landscaping or art.

In this situation it would be hard - one cow statue might be fine, but 20 of them???? I just noticed that this is from the beginning of July. Did anything end up happening on this? Let us know how this works out.

 

[boiker]

In this situation it would be hard - one cow statue might be fine, but 20 of them???? I just noticed that this is from the beginning of July. Did anything end up happening on this? Let us know how this works out.

I'm in discussion with a furniture store that feels that a chair sculpture is not a sign becuase it doesn't say anything. I told them because they are a furniture busienss, the chair is illustrating what products they sell, therefore, a sign.

I'll let you know what the final decision is.

 

[Cardinal]

I'm in discussion with a furniture store that feels that a chair sculpture is not a sign becuase it doesn't say anything. I told them because they are a furniture busienss, the chair is illustrating what products they sell, therefore, a sign.

I'll let you know what the final decision is.

How would you treat a sculpture in front of an art gallery?

 

[michaelskis]

How would you treat a sculpture in front of an art gallery?

It is art...

What about some years back when Chicago had all those cow sculptures painted by famous artists? If Beef-A-Roo desired to buy one, and put it in the parking lot, how would that be treated?

I think that if it came down to it, it would be the cities burden to show intention to utilize the sculpture as advertising.

I'm in discussion with a furniture store that feels that a chair sculpture is not a sign becuase it doesn't say anything. I told them because they are a furniture busienss, the chair is illustrating what products they sell, therefore, a sign.

I'll let you know what the final decision is.

That is signage... We had a case just like that with a Furniture Row (can I use names???) and we told them no, you can not have two massive chairs on top of each other if it will exceed the total permitted signage.

 

[The One]

Hmm.....

If your intent is to regulate the use of commercial statues, then check to see if the symbol is registered as a trademark of the company for commercial purposes. If so, then it is a commercial statue/sign and not allowed (after you amend your code of course and convince your attorney B-) ) Keep away from using the term sculpture, as it tends to connote art.

By the way, I think it would be a great idea for commercial establishments to have non-commercial art (sculptures) in their landscape areas.....very cool .....and could be pedestrian friendly in the right places....

 

[boiker]

Furniture Row (can I use names???)

well.. sure.. cause Furniture Row is my bain

 

[Maister]

A steak house with a big steer on the roof? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how a model/sculpture/icon representing the object one is selling could be anything other than a 'sign'. I mean, it's the oldest form of advertising out there - think medieval (and later) European towns. The largely illiterate population would rely on icons showing a mortar and pestle, for example, to identify an apothecary shop or a fish for the fish seller, or a big candle for a chandler. In the case of 'icons' such as Ronald McDonald or Pig Boy, these are registered trademarks - try putting one in front of your newly opened Joe's Burger Joint and count how many seconds it would take til you have a team of lawyers pounding on your door.
In terms of what is 'art' (as opposed to some sort of cultural artifact) this matter has already been thoroughly explored with Roy Liechtenstein and Andy Warhol.....context is everything. A can of Campbells tomato soup is 'art' if one is not trying to sell tomato soup. if one has a giant inflatable can of tomato soup atop one's supermarket - it's a sign.
I sometimes get frustrated (even with fellow planners) by some people's inability to make this distinction of context .

 

[Cardinal]

In line with the furniture question, is this art or advertising?

http://www.cincinnati.com/travel/stories/img/051699_slugger_150x238.jpg

[edit]I should offer a little more explanation. The giant bat (sculpture?) is located outside the headquarters of the company that makes the Louisville Slugger baseball bats.[/edit]

 

[Zoning Goddess]

In line with the furniture question, is this art or advertising?

http://www.cincinnati.com/travel/stories/img/051699_slugger_150x238.jpg

It's Land of the Giants... ;-)

I wouldn't call a giant baseball bat art. It looks like all the sports decorative features on one of the Disney World budget hotels.

 

[michaelskis]

In anyone in the K-zoo area gets a chance, last night I was on Stadium Drive, and two opposing car dealerships (one on each side) have to massive (25+ feet) inflatable figures facing each other. One is Godzilla, the other is a Texan Gun Fighter.

Is this signage since the context is obviously not indicating that they sell guns, lizards, hats, or anything other than cars?

 

[Maister]

In anyone in the K-zoo area gets a chance, last night I was on Stadium Drive, and two opposing car dealerships (one on each side) have to massive (25+ feet) inflatable figures facing each other. One is Godzilla, the other is a Texan Gun Fighter.

Is this signage since the context is obviously not indicating that they sell guns, lizards, hats, or anything other than cars?

Anything inflatable, colored purple and standing 30 feet tall next to a roadway in front of a car dealership is intended to draw attention to the car dealership. Yep, it's a sign in that context. The same 30 ft tall purple dinosaur in your back yard would probably not be.

 

[boiker]

our code requires special permits for inflatible devices that includes balloons on cars, inflatable dinos, 'dancers", etc.