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Howard Dean, a Big Fat Lieing Liar?

el Guapo

Capitalist
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5,995
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31
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/23/p...800&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position=

I cannot help but notice Weasel Clark and Howie seem to be following the Clintonian tradition of bull-****ting the American people. My question for you, kind Cyburbians is, "have we come to accept a general level of dishonesty in our candidates as given?

In my mind, after having told these whoppers, which both of these fellows have poured forth frequently in this campaign, in
the olden days they would have lost their viability, in addition to their credibility. I think as a society we have come to accept being lied to as a given, and we expect it more often than not. Candidates don't even bother to say "whoops, I'm sorry...what I meant was..."

I think the press' bias also creates lazy Democrats. The press isn't holding their feet to the fire like they did a President who's every speech they have parsed by Al Franken and a team of Harvard Suicide-for-the-Cause Grad Students. The bias is there, and I see the Dems getting a pass on so much more than a Republican gets.

The article above is but one reference. I can provide more if this gets into a liberal-conservative pissing match.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
SkeLeton said:
Politicians lying... what a newsflash! ;)
Yeah, I know. But I think it is getting worse. It is like standing in a vat of sewage that is rising. When it gets over your bottom lip, you really start taking notice.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
They're all liars....I did not inhale/did not have sexual relations/no more new taxes/I invented the internet, the list goes on and on.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
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41
el Guapo said:
[BMy question for you, kind Cyburbians is, "have we come to accept a general level of dishonesty in our candidates as given? [/B]
Sadly, I would have to affirm. In national politics, particularly, the amount of cash that it takes to be elected and remain elected has become disgusting. Worse is the "freedom of political speech" bull-cr@p espoused by Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY). True political debate -- at the campaign level -- is one thing, mud-slinging sound bites (out-of-context, at that) something quite different. National politics has become an exercise in self-aggrandizement, as opposed to "by the people and for the people."
 

giff57

Corn Burning Fool
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Moderator
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5,443
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34
You are right EG, I think we have come to expect politicos to lie. They all do it. In fact I think we create it by expecting candidates to have flawless pasts. I really do not think an honest person could ever be elected. Can you imagine a candidate saying, "I smoked pot in college, hell, I smoked a fatty last night. I cheated on my spouse, but we have worked that out."
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
giff57 said:
I smoked pot in college, hell, I smoked a fatty last night. I cheated on my spouse, but we have worked that out.
Giff (AKA Norml Candidate)
I'm willing to vote for you now that you have come clean with Cyburbia.


Now that is taking someone out of context. ;)
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
A lot of us work in local government. Think about the lying and un-ethical abuses you've heard or read about on the local level and just try to imagine the scope of what goes on behind closed doors at much higher levels (in both parties).

Dean's got to show that he's impassioned but that he's also rational enough to be a statesman and commander in chief. Presidential elections over the past 60 years have been for the guy who will have his finger on "the button."
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
Giff,
You are up there in America's Heartland, what is the local buzz on these Lieing Liars and the Lies They Tell? Are they getting traction? Is the rubber meeting the road? Will they buy that hound dog in Souix City? Anyone saluting the flags they are running up the poll? please help me stop..... Who's eating who's cookies? Where's the beef? Who's got da juice. Is Howard's fachizzlel in Iowa City's manizzle?
 

giff57

Corn Burning Fool
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34
el Guapo said:
Giff,
You are up there in America's Heartland, what is the local buzz on these Lieing Liars and the Lies They Tell?
I would say that Iowa City is all about Dean. They are looking for a liberals liberal. Crap, when I lived there they had the first elected official in the US that was a card carrying socialist. The rest of the state is pretty conservative as a whole, so I would see the other urban areas aligning with Gephart. The rural areas will just pull the GOP lever out of habit.
 

DecaturHawk

Cyburbian
Messages
880
Points
22
You are right on both counts, EG: Americans are used to lying politicians, and the press is incredibly biased towards the Dems. The NY Times article is a perfect example: I can think of nowhere else that Howard Dean is referred to so often as "Dr. Dean" in such hushed tones. One wonders how someone with such a shaky command of the facts squeezed out a PhD. But hey, Americas "Newspaper of Record" says he's a doctor, so he much be really smart, right? Sure, the story dutifully points out Dean's lie, but without the veiled invective they reserve for Republicans and conservatives. The Times knows that Dean will likely be the Democratic nominee, and they know that they will endorse him, so they softball him. Just like with Clinton, the Times will report his pecadilloes on the front page, then defend him or try to convince us that it's no big deal on the editorial page. Our national media is biased to the left. Yes, Fox is biased the other way, but that's only one network out of all the others, not to mention the print media and NPR.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Seabishop said:
A lot of us work in local government. Think about the lying and un-ethical abuses you've heard or read about on the local level and just try to imagine the scope of what goes on behind closed doors at much higher levels (in both parties).
What sucks is trying to convince the general public that you aren't one of them...
 

giff57

Corn Burning Fool
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34
DecaturHawk said:
The NY Times article is a perfect example: I can think of nowhere else that Howard Dean is referred to so often as "Dr. Dean" in such hushed tones. One wonders how someone with such a shaky command of the facts squeezed out a PhD.
That's because he is an MD....
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
The way I feel about it, is that they tend to talk less about their plan , and more about each others shortcomings. All these debates are just mudslinging contests.

I just wish there was a good third party canadite running to liven it up a bit. They keep throwing these losers out there who can only seem to attack each other because there is nothing good about any of them.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
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I don't know how to respond without turning this into a left vs right debate.

Regarding the "liberal media," it doesn't exist. Excepting AM radio, most mainstream media in the United States is nonpartisan and centrist, with only a wee bit of wiggle room either way. Consider the article El Guapo linked to is in none other than the [sarcasm]biased ranting pinko leftist Commie East Coast liberal elite[/sarcasm] New York Times.

Like Gobbels said, say something enough, and people start to believe it. Liberal media liberal media liberal medialiberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media liberal media ...

Now, the lie. Yeah, Dean fibbed. Remember, though, a war was started by a Republican president over what may be non-existent "weapons of mass destruction." EG, being a Republican, might be aware of the lies uttered by leaders on the right, but we don't see an FAC topic started about it. Nope, it's Dean. Hey, that's natural. I wouldn't want to start a thread that puts my side of the fence in a bad light, either.

The sad fact of the matter is that lying politicans are everywhere. They're not the exclusive province of liberals or conservatices, Democrats or Republicans. Politicians lie because they want to look good to their constituents; they want to be liked, they want to be popular.

That's a mistake "nice guys" make in the dating arena. We say and do all the right things, attempting to appear perfect in the eyes of women. The result, though? It backfires. Instead, we appear slimy, slippery, and maybe even weak. I'll bet the same thing happens with political candidates. Thing is, we don't have a choice ... they all seem slimy, slippery and weak.

Politicians need to learn that it's okay not to be a perfect person. They need some rough edges to grab on to. Partake of the 420 before? Yup. Ever use the "n word?" Uh huh. Drink beer? Burp. Rinse, lather and repeat? Nope ... just the first two.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
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6,463
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29
Thanks, Dan. You summed it up pretty good. I didn't want to get into a flame war, so I refrained from posting.

I guess my only response, beyond the moral problems of a flat-out lie, is the stupdity of such a lie. This is something that is so easily checked. I am really wondering about who I will vote, because Dean is saying other things, important "truths" that I really like. Flawed as he is, I will probably still go for him.
 

el Guapo

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31
Dan said:
EG, being a Republican, might be aware of the lies uttered by leaders on the right, but we don't see an FAC topic started about it. Nope, it's Dean. Hey, that's natural. I wouldn't want to start a thread that puts my side of the fence in a bad light, either.[/B]
Dan,

Ha, Did you really have to go straight to the Nazi's when chiding a conservative? That is the Liberal "I'm loosing this debate" fundamental mistake number one.

On Cyburbia, there are plenty of people here that would be glad to start the Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Bush II - the Revenge of Hailliburton thread. They do it all the time. I posted this article becasue it is topical - IT CAME OUT TODAY. Rembember, I'm in the disenting loyal minority on this board. It is a role I love to play.

BTW - get your search engine warmed up. If Bush would have used the N-Word I'd have posted and jammed him TODAY. If you'll look, you'll see I have bashed my boys when they have been bad without hesitation. Newt, GHWB, GWB, Trent....yada yada yada. I don't see the same coming from the left, sorry. I claim the high ground.

I stand by my points as written, and I'll leave for a while to get some more work done here at the office.
(sorry Dan)

And I'll say it again...Liberal Media.;)

Why? Because I think it is true, until otherwise convinced.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
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el Guapo said:
BTW - get your search engine warmed up. If Bush would have used the N-Word I'd have posted and jammed him TODAY. If you'll look, you'll see I have bashed my boys when they have been bad without hesitation. Newt, GHWB, GWB, Trent....yada yada yada. I don't see the same coming from the left, sorry. I claim the high ground.
'Tis true, I'll grant you that.

I have to get back to reading my copy of the Daily Socialist People's Worker's Labor Free Press. :p
 

Dan

Dear Leader
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BKM said:
You forgot "Revolutionary" Dan
[ot]Sorry. Daily Socialist People's Revolutionary Worker's Labor Free Press.

[/ot]
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,550
Points
24
Always searching for the middle ground...

I think EG and Dan are both partially right about the so-called "liberal media".

I see the news organizations and news commentary of the country being right-slanted or centrist, for the most part. The liberal slant of news, I don't really see, NPR excepted. At the very least, for every New York Times, there's the Wall Street Journal.

However, I see entertainment in the country being very left-leaning. Conservative politicians in movies or television are frequently comedic or villainous in their roles. When was there a comedic or villainous Democrat in a movie role?

I'm not down for a battle, just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Well, that, and I'm trying to make it to the half-clube by the end of the year.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
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34
I dont blame the media. Maybe thats becasue I dont even own a TV. But seriously, I think we've come to expect liars and scandal, and thats just sad. Expect, yes. Tolerate, NO!

Locally we have had two years - TWO YEARS - of indictments, convictions, and where conviction did not occur, recalls - of politicians at the municipal, county, and state levels. And in almost all cases, they were the Senior senators, the incumbent alderman, the chairman of the influential committee. I'm so disgusted by the this, but on the flip side, I'm very happy the Feds stepped in and started investigating the red flags and exposing the corruption at its highest levels.

What happened in Wisconsin over the past few years SHOULD happen at the Federal level. Unfortunately, I fear its too widespread for the nation to withstand an onslaught of truth at this point.
 
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