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I am Ashamed of this.

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31


OUTRAGE AT AMERICAN TORTURE OF IRAQI PRISONERS

Dear President Bush,
I will not vote for you, and thus the contiunation of this war against terrorism, until I know that the soldiers and the chain of command resposible for this outrage is investigated and those responsible are punished for their crimes.

American Warriors should not fight this way, nor tollerate those that do.

Sincerely,
A former American Soldier and possible future ex-Republican.
 

NHPlanner

A shadow of my former self
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
9,945
Points
40
Disgusting. I can only hope that those that are responsible are punished accordingly.....
 

SGB

Cyburbian
Messages
3,388
Points
26
EG -

Do you have any idea what the maximum penalty for these crimes is under military law? I'm hoping it's something much more severe than a dishonerable discharge....
 

Plannerbabs

Cyburbian
Messages
1,037
Points
23
Good God. That's horrible. Speaking on behalf of someone who is stationed at that prison--there are hundreds of soldiers serving there, and these actions were committed by a few. This is not representative of our soldiers' behavior there. The guys I know who are there are interested in keeping the facility and all of its occupants safe, avoiding attacks, reading magazines sent from home, adopting stray dogs that hang around, and getting home safely. They have been trying to improve relations with the Iraqis, and this is exactly the sort of thing that undermines that effort, and makes the facility more dangerous for everyone involved. I hope the soldiers who committed these crimes are held publically accountable, so that it may be seen that we are not all like that.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
I'll probally take heat for this but here it is.

Granted this is not the way are country's army should treat prisoners of war and yes it is wrong, but it as not as bad as the images of our soldiers lifeless bodies being dragged through the streets as the American Flag is burning. That is truley repolsive (sp?).
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
One of these MP's claims that they lacked training?! What about common sense? This makes it very difficult for us to act outraged when US prisoners are stuck before cameras or paraded around the streets. The people who did this, and their commanders all the way up to the top, should pay for these acts. The damage they have done to the military and the country is every bit as bad as that of a traitor.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,176
Points
51
During Lunch I watched CNN and Bush had a press conference with the Prime Minister of Canada. A reporter asked Bush about this. He said that not only was he was disgusted by the action of these few solders, he wants to assure the American people as well as the world that actions like this will not be tolerated, and the persons responsible would be identified and prosecuted.

I do not think that he is responsible for this happening and I am glad to see that he will do something about it, and make it a point not to let anything like this happen again.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
This is unacceptable, disgusting and what has kept us from being thugs and subhuman. How can we point the finger at others if we are doing the same, even a small bunch.

Im livid
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,176
Points
51
Rumpy Tunanator said:
I'll probally take heat for this but here it is.

Granted this is not the way are country's army should treat prisoners of war and yes it is wrong, but it as not as bad as the images of our soldiers lifeless bodies being dragged through the streets as the American Flag is burning. That is truley repolsive (sp?).

I will agree with you. However, I do want to stress that although the severity of what happened may be different, I think that this will have a bit more repercussion due to many other countries see the US Armed Forces as a model of integrity, control, and honor. This is not something that the US does. As for the Iraqi’s that popularized the killing, burning, and dragging of the Americans, it is something that has been done many times in the past to many different groups. Even they’re own people.
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
Really bad, especially since we're coming in there as the paternal government to set up democracy and calm militant fundamentalism. The soldiers might not have been taught every aspect of the Geneva Convention but any idiot would know not to do that.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
PlannerGirl said:
How can we point the finger at others if we are doing the same, even a small bunch.

Im livid
I understand the sentiment, PG, but this is an aberration and our nation is already registering its disgust and outrage. We're pointing our fingers at ourselves in this case. To me, that's ultimately what makes us different - these thugs WILL be punished, I'm betting SEVERELY.

I hope it will also happen VERY PUBLICLY.
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,550
Points
24
That certainly is an outrage, and it makes our legitimate efforts to make things better look like a joke. Those people need to be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

However...

This happens in every war, and while I've never come close to combat, it's probably hard to expect that anyone who's been pinned down by sniper fire and RPGs is going to act cooly and rationally when you actually catch one of the bad guys.

In many ways, Murphy's Law has had its imprint all over this war. :(
 

Big Easy King

Cyburbian
Messages
1,361
Points
23
Those photos are very compelling. I'm appalled and disgusted that human dignity was forsaken in those demeaning acts of torture.
 
Messages
5,352
Points
31
While I am appalled and disgusted by the actions of these "renegade soldiers," all it does is reaffirm my feelings about this whole thing - bring our troops HOME and end this so-called war!
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,710
Points
69
So am I, my friend. So am I.

If this is what's on video tape, how many incidents happened that are undocumented?

I thought we were above that. I just expected more from our armed forces.

According to some people, there's more important things to worry about, like Jacko.
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,550
Points
24
michaelskis said:
This is not something that the US does. As for the Iraqi’s that popularized the killing, burning, and dragging of the Americans, it is something that has been done many times in the past to many different groups. Even they’re own people.
I have to disagree with you here, michaelskis. I'm not one of those people who thinks everything about the US is wrong, but this is something that the US does. Or any military from any nation at war, for that matter. I see it as a part of the ugliness of war. And while we choose to disassociate ourselves from it, the actions are inevitable.

Ever see the pictures of the tortured Union or Confederate soldiers in Northern or Southern POW camps? Whether it was done by a guy from Minnesota against a guy from Tennessee, or vice versa, it was done to "our own people."
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
My Email to the CEO

Dear President Bush,
I will not vote for you, and thus the continuation of this war against terrorism, until I know that the soldiers and the chain of command responsible for the torture and ill treatment of these Iraqi prisoners is investigated and those responsible are punished for their crimes. This happened on your watch and you need to ensure it is handled.

I participated in the battle of ‘73 Eastings from inside a Hummer that was hit by small arms fire and I saw much of the Shiite refuge situation in the aftermath of the war. So I’ve seen the chaos of war and I’ve seen men act with dignity in the midst of battle. These Iraqis in the news were in our custody and care and the excuse of adrenalin or bad decision making under presser doesn’t wash. These are people that knew what they were doing was wrong.

I can say this with pride: In every example of enemy contact, surrender and aid to the wounded I personally saw as an E-5 EOD technician with the 1st Armored Division in the first Gulf War, I was very proud of how humane our troops were to the men that had been shooting at them mere moments before.

I saw this where there were no news cameras. I saw this when the stress level was high and the emotions were raw. I was never so proud to be an American than when I saw countless acts of humanity by young blue collar men who were a world away from the hood or the farm and in the heat of a battle we didn't know for sure we would win. This torture is wrong and those men should be turned over to the Iraqi Ruling Council after the transition for their trials. However, they should spend their jail time in US custody.

There has been a monumental failure of Army leadership and someone needs to hang. American Warriors should not fight this way, nor tolerate those that do.


Sincerely,
A former American Soldier (And a possible future ex-Republican if the party doesn’t find it’s moral & ethical center pretty darn soon.)

Real name and address removed in this post.

PS – The patriot act 1 & 2 have me a bit botherd too, so feel free to pass this on to Mr. Ashcroft and Carnivore.
 
Messages
27
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2
undefinedThis is my first post to your fine forum. Perhaps the soldiers responsible for the torture of these men could be charged with a war crime and face a tribunal. To my knowledge, a war crimes tribunal would serve not only the vanquisher but those who are defeated (?) in war.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
We went into this war to set an example for the world. A handful of schmucks blew that faster than Ashie ever could.
 

plankton

Cyburbian
Messages
750
Points
21
a plea to stop the needless maiming and killing

I don't know what's more troubling: These terrible images or the fact (if you want to call it that) that Bush still has a ~50% chance at being reelected. It's as if he had no choice in declaring this disasterous, preemptive, predetermined (PNAC*), unjustified, absurdly-expensive, dangerous war, and now he (as opposed to a decorated war veteran such as Kerry) is the only person who can lead us to victory in this ill-fated war on terror.

Chalk me up as another livid cyburbian.

*For those who may not know, PNAC = "Project for a New American Century", a document produced by Cheney/Wolfowitz/Rumself, et al. in the mid-90's that prescribes a path to dominate control of the world's oil reserves in the upcoming century.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Woonerf said:
undefinedThis is my first post to your fine forum. Perhaps the soldiers responsible for the torture of these men could be charged with a war crime and face a tribunal. To my knowledge, a war crimes tribunal would serve not only the vanquisher but those who are defeated (?) in war.
Not a bad first post, in my opinion. I wondered the same thing when I first heard of it. What is the standard for a "war crime?" Is it any infraction of the Geneva Convention?

As EG stated, this is a monumental failure of the military and chain of command. This was not a single incidence, but several different events carried out by these six soldiers. What other undocumented instanceoccurred? How many other soldiers were responsible? Something like this cannot happen without others knowing of it, yet nothing was done until this one person stepped forward.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
What a Cluster****. This war is going down the tank way faster than even Veitnam did.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
Big Easy King said:
Those photos are very compelling. I'm appalled and disgusted that human dignity was forsaken in those demeaning acts of torture.
With our self censored and officially censored "free press" it is a wonder that we have seen these photos at all. We are not allowed see images of American dead, American caskets, or large numbers of Iraqi dead. Doesn't it seem wierd that our press is so un free.

El G. Thanks for sharing the letter. I am proud of you and those who have served with honor, and who have upheld Amerrican values.
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
Wow.. where's your human rights? I wonder if there's some sickos like that in Gitmo too... that would be even more contradictory, to scold Cuba for violation of human rights and violating the human rights in a base in the same island...
(In no way should this make cuban HR violations aceptable, no HR violations are)

I guess this will be used as brainwashing propaganda for all islamic extremists...

Well they said they missed training... how about treating people like you would want to be treated, is that so hard?
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Guap you need to see the write up and photos in todays Washington Post www.washingtonpost.com

Most upsetting-the troops say they were "just following orders" Everyone along the line is pointing higher and higher. Isnt there some rule somewhere not to follow an order you know to be a bad order?

This turns my gut.
 
Messages
5,352
Points
31
PlannerGirl said:
Guap you need to see the write up and photos in todays Washington Post www.washingtonpost.com

Most upsetting-the troops say they were "just following orders" Everyone along the line is pointing higher and higher. Isnt there some rule somewhere not to follow an order you know to be a bad order?

This turns my gut.
So I guess those pictures weren't some kind of hoax? That's the word I was hearing a few days ago. :-\
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Odds are some of them are, some of them arnt. The fact that the Red Cross has now come forward saying they were already working on this and found cases is not good. The fact that W has in public given Rummy a toung lashing leads me to think perhaps this is not all smoke and mirrors. I pray to G*d its not just the tip of the iceburg.
Add this to yesterdays move to send MORE troops and keep others there longer and add 45 BILLION more "stop gap" money to the war effort its all rather-unpromising.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions.

America, culturally, is rather controlling. We seem to think we can control anything and anyone. It is one of the reasons our culture is so uncomfortable with death. Other cultures just don't get our attitudes on death. Heck, I don't get them either. Such a controlling attitude tends to lead to atrocious behavior. Highly controlling parents are the ones that end up abusing their kids. You cannot control everyone. A civilized environment is one that deals in a realistic fashion with the fundamentals of human nature. Perhaps a life-long alcoholic is not the right person to expect to be able to deal realistically with....much of anything. Sigh.

It is also what happens when you try to set an unreasonably high standard in one area: this is partly the price for taking the position that, in essence, we cannot do "racial profiling" on American soil -- because it would be Uncivilized and UnAmerican -- but doing so on foreign soil, and wholesale against entire countries, that's okay. :-c The moral choice is not always the one that LOOKS "clean". Things are usually cleaner if the dirt is up close and personal and not a zillion miles away where we can be oblivious to just how ugly things really are.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,710
Points
69
Private Lynndie England, former Wal-Mart employee. (Sam's Law!) She has a promising future as a dominatrix.



This is just not right. It just isn't. This 21 year old might end up doing more harm to this country, albiet indirectly, than Osama bin Ladin ever did.

Here's what the Arab world thinks of us now.

Those in the military who say that this incident set our reputation back 20 years is correct.

I'm even more shamed that Bush really didn't apologize when he appeared on Arab television; he just spewed out some doubletalk about "American values." I would think so much more of him if he was a man, and said "What happened was wrong, and I apologize" instead of turning it into another rah-rah speech.
 

otterpop

Cyburbian
Messages
6,655
Points
28
Needless to say I too found these incidents to be appalling. As if we aren't already very unpopular in this region of the world, these actions throw gas on the fire and give increased credibility to those who hate us.

Those who did these evil acts should be seriously punished. I am skeptical that they will. I suspect there will be a lot of media attention for a while. The adminsitration will posture and condemn so long as the heat is on. But eventually it will be largely swept under the rug, and those repsonsible will lawyer up and escape serious consequences.

I hope I am wrong, though.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
otterpop said:
But eventually it will be largely swept under the rug, and those repsonsible will lawyer up and escape serious consequences.

I hope I am wrong, though.
If it goes to the Courts Martial, I think you will be wrong. The military court system is different from the American civilian court system. There can also be harsh, non-judicial consequences in time of war. I have heard that really bad officers -- the kind whose stupidity and arrogance gets people killed -- sometimes get "demoted" when one of their own troops rolls a grenade under the tent flap where they are sleeping.

I doubt sane men like eG and Cardinal would feel safe serving with the psychos who did this. The military cannot afford to take the "hear no evil, see no evil, pay the high priced lawyer" approach to justice. Too many lives depend upon it.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
Dan said:
I'm even more shamed that Bush really didn't apologize when he appeared on Arab television; he just spewed out some doubletalk about "American values." I would think so much more of him if he was a man, and said "What happened was wrong, and I apologize" instead of turning it into another rah-rah speech.
I agree - "regretting" what was done was not an apology. Many more martyrs will be getting their 72 (or whatever #) virgins in the afterlife after this....
 

otterpop

Cyburbian
Messages
6,655
Points
28
Michele Zone said:
If it goes to the Courts Martial, I think you will be wrong. The military court system is different from the American civilian court system. There can also be harsh, non-judicial consequences in time of war. I have heard that really bad officers -- the kind whose stupidity and arrogance gets people killed -- sometimes get "demoted" when one of their own troops rolls a grenade under the tent flap where they are sleeping.

I doubt sane men like eG and Cardinal would feel safe serving with the psychos who did this. The military cannot afford to take the "hear no evil, see no evil, pay the high priced lawyer" approach to justice. Too many lives depend upon it.
Lt. William "What My Lai?" Calley "lawyered up" and walked away from federal prison after serving 3.5 years of house arrest for the murder of 22 Vietnam villagers. And was later "Tricky Dick" ordered him released. A federal judge overturned his conviction. I am skeptical that the military court is going to be harsh on their own.
 
Messages
3,690
Points
27
Chet said:
I agree - "regretting" what was done was not an apology. Many more martyrs will be getting their 72 (or whatever #) virgins in the afterlife after this....
I completely agree. An apology should have been made. But I also agree with El Feo, in that had this happened under Saddam's regime, no one would have ever heard about it.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
otterpop said:
Lt. William "What My Lai?" Calley "lawyered up" and walked away from federal prison after serving 3.5 years of house arrest for the murder of 22 Vietnam villagers. And was later "Tricky Dick" ordered him released. A federal judge overturned his conviction. I am skeptical that the military court is going to be harsh on their own.
Well, we can always immorally hope for non-judicial consequences. Sigh.

Don't confuse me with The Facts. I love my country. And I don't want to be tempted to start the slide down that slippery slope until I feel it would be 'righteous' to be as cruel as the people who did this to begin with.

We need more good moms in this world. That's all I can really say.
 

jresta

Cyburbian
Messages
1,474
Points
23
what every army E-4 learns in NCO school is "you can delegate authority but you can't delegate responsibility." The whole chain of command needs to go down for this.

Interestingly, but not surprisingly, on the front page of the NYTimes is an article about some of these clowns. A few of them are prison guards who've been in trouble for this type of thing before. Some have histories of domestic abuse.

I couldn't wait to get out of the national guard b/c of the kind of people it attracted.
Training with them was down right dangerous - from people not pointing loaded weapons at the ground to people not setting parking brakes on 2.5 ton trucks. After finding out this was a reserve unit it didn't really surprise me at all. I'm not saying that applies to everyone but the "profession" attracts a lot of weirdos.

My brother is in Iraq, in a guard unit. Morale was low before they left. They make the best of it and while there haven't been any fraggings yet people regularly refuse duty with little consequences b/c the officers don't want to do it either and if they did punish someone they'd likely face consequences themselves.

Every time he calls me or emails me he asks "did they start the draft yet?" This whole thing was based on an outrageous lie and the pile of lies continues to grow. Someone other than a couple of soldiers needs to do some serious jail time.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Warning:Questionable Rant Ahead

Downtown said:
I completely agree. An apology should have been made. But I also agree with El Feo, in that had this happened under Saddam's regime, no one would have ever heard about it.
On the one hand, I am skeptical of the Arab World's crocodile tears and rage about activities they do in their own countries, to their own women (read about "honor killings" wherein a father can murder his own daughter who had the misfortune to be raped by a relative-and recieve no judicial sanction at all). This is one liberal who is not a cultural relativist. There is a reason why Arab countries are backward, violent places that have not progressed in generations. As an agnostic skeptic of the liberal persuasion, I would be tortured by the states established by al-Sadr and his fascist ilk. The "Arab Street" is an ignorant, bviolent beast easily manipulated by the official media of countries that recieve billions from us and purport to be our allies. Forgive me for my somewhat anti-Semitic feelings, in that I don't universalize them to every individual.

On the other hand, if we are truly going to hold ourselves up, if we really believe in American Exceptionalism, then to descend to this behavior, to use Sadaam's own prison facilities to torture people-that is just amazing. You can't have it both ways, people. Either we are the "good guys," or we are just another evil empire unilaterally acting in the short term interests of our own corporate and military elites. I fear the latter, I want us to be the former.

Dan: If this is inappropriate, feel free to edit.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
jresta said:
Every time he calls me or emails me he asks "did they start the draft yet?" This whole thing was based on an outrageous lie and the pile of lies continues to grow. Someone other than a couple of soldiers needs to do some serious jail time.
Why has the "I" word not been seriously mentioned yet. That Man needs to be IMPEACHED!
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
BKM said:
You can't have it both ways, people. Either we are the "good guys," or we are just another evil empire unilaterally acting in the short term interests of our own corporate and military elites. I fear the latter, I want us to be the former.
Actually, as disgusted I am, I think you can have it both ways: I think America does have a history of acting as The Good Guy. And just because there may be other motivations (like oil) involved doesn't mean the moral issues cited are all Political Posturing. In the middle east war in '91, we were the only country that did NOT accept Saudi Arabia's offer to give each individual service member a few thousand dollars for coming to their aid. We turned it down on the idea that we are not mercenaries. I have mixed feelings about that -- plenty of service members could have used that money to cover hardships incurred as a result of the war -- but America does try to shoot for a very high ideal in such situations. We don't always succeed. But I don't know of another country that tries harder.

We live in an imperfect world. Most people really do have an angel sitting one shoulder saying "do the right thing" and a devil sitting on the other saying "look out for number one". Part of that has to do with right hemisphere vs. left hemisphere of the brain -- which I think is the REAL basis for most religious mythology. (long story and OT).

As for the Arab world: unfortunately, I think it is backwards. But I also think part of that backwardness is rooted in sincere family values which are simply somewhat out of date and out of step with the future direction this world needs to go in. But I also think that any time the world finds itself on the cusp of major change, you will wind up with two factions pulling in opposite directions. With luck, the one that "wins" is the one most suited for emerging realities that never before existed. You can't always tell beforehand which is genuinely "best".

And, frankly, I like being able to walk back and forth between those realities/value systems. They each have something of value to offer. I really hope we (globally) can reconcile the need for family values with the need for fewer children and more empowered moms who are more whole. I think a great deal of evil arises out of the simple fact of a woman being so financially dependent upon her husband if she stays home to do right by her kids. ("Honor killings" are sort of the extreme of that idea -- that a man "owns" a woman because she is financially dependent -- although they are not simply due to that.) And it usually is the woman who does so, for some very basic and practical reasons rooted in biology (but NOT solely determined thereby). But, an extremist position in either direction causes plenty of evil. Families also tend to suffer if neither parent can afford to take some time off for the sake of the family while the kids are little (and I don't necessarily mean "be unemployed/a full time parent for a while"). I am not saying it Dooms a family, just that it also has a cost.
 
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Tom R

Cyburbian
Messages
2,274
Points
25
pics

Well, the US has lost whatever moral high ground that we had with this episode. I don't see anything good coming out of this "war" despite the capture of Sadam and the killing of his pervert sons. There are going to be repercussions for decades. We were just beginning to get out from under the Vietnam disaster and I feel that we're facing another, maybe more serious one. I think it was Gen. Sherman that said "War is hell" and he was right, and each war's hell is different. As adept the US is with waging a fighting war, it seems equally inept with waging a political one. I guess we can be fooled again.

As for the people who are shown doing these discusting things, I can't believe that these things would have occured without some kind of permissive if not encouraging culture within the chain of command. As painful as it may be, I just hope that some bunch of lower enlisted or officers DON'T take the fall. I think it goes deeper and higher than that.
 
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jresta

Cyburbian
Messages
1,474
Points
23
"I also know the sort of abuse that went on in Abu Ghraib prison goes on in prisons all over the Arab world every day, as it did under Saddam — without the Arab League or Al Jazeera ever saying a word about it."

Friedman is the same kind of Hobbesian schmuck that Rumsfeld is. I've always thought so. This was printed in the NYTimes today.

Two years after he [SPC Charles A. Graner Jr.] arrived at SCI-Greene [in Pennsylvania], the prison was at the center of an abuse scandal. Prison officials declined to say whether Specialist Graner had been disciplined in that case, citing privacy laws.

Inmates and advocates for prisoner rights asserted in 1998 that guards at the prison routinely beat and humiliated prisoners, including through a sadistic game of Simon Says in which guards struck prisoners who failed to comply with barked instructions.

After an investigation, the warden was transferred, two lieutenants were fired and about two dozen guards were reprimanded, demoted or suspended.

full text - http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/national/06GUAR.html

So while Friedman pulls no punches in criticizing the arab world or al-Jazeera not only does he not read his own paper but he also can't criticize it for not publishing the story 6 years ago as it was unfolding.

The fact is that al-Jazeera is more critical of Arab governments than the US administration is. Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia in particular. I'm sure it would be just as critical of Iran and Pakistan if there was an Arab audience to broadcast to.
The reporters and correspondents are nearly all western trained journalists - many of whom came over from the BBC - with all the trappings of a westerner. You'd have to watch it/read it to know it. But in the meantime you're just supposed to take Friedman and Rumsfeld's word for it and convince yourself that FOX News is less biased.



There is a reason why Arab countries are backward, violent places that have not progressed in generations. As an agnostic skeptic of the liberal persuasion, I would be tortured by the states established by al-Sadr and his fascist ilk. The "Arab Street" is an ignorant, bviolent beast easily manipulated by the official media of countries that recieve billions from us and purport to be our allies.

Islam was founded around 600 AD. This description would've been quite generous if you were talking about Christendom in 1400 AD.
 
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