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Indian casinos (was: My County will be ruined utterly)

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
My County will be ruined utterly

I am so angry I could spit.

The "Pomo Indians" are "returning" to Solano County (what a joke) with a proposal to build one of those monstrosity casinos right in the middle of our agricultural preserve. Of course, they are in cahoots with Nevada gambling interests, a scummy local land speculator, and similar ilk.

Good bye, beautiful farmland, hello stupid, gaudy awful, tacky, crime-inspiring CASINO.

Our local freeway system is alread at Level of Service F, the beautiful rural roads nearby are already commuter highways, and my City is already suffering from crime and a population of too many ne'er do wells. I don't care if I am accused of NIMBYism. Casinos destroy communities. They are an inherently evil institution. As they are popping up everywhere, I challenge the "gaming industry" (what a euphimism) to really demostrate that there will be any net benefit to the area-when there is a casino on an "Indian Reservation" every fifty miles.

I may be politically incorrect, but the total exemption from local planning laws and local citizens' wishes for this "reservation" is illogical. Maybe we are just getting just deserts, but hey, many of these "Indians" are a very small percentage of Indian blood, and it is the organized crime and casino industry that really benefits! Sorry, if I am being offensive on the latter point. I understand American history, but I remain unconvinced that THIS is the way to resolve that history.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
OT:

Are those casinos regulated in any way. Meaning, are they checked for "fairness"

When I lived in 29 Palms, CA they always said to stay out of the Indian Casinos because they are all fixed.
 

Wannaplan?

Bounty Hunter
Messages
3,219
Points
29
Re: My County will be ruined utterly

BKM said:
Casinos destroy communities.

Really?! How so? And how do you know this? What research are you using as the basis for your claim? Is Las Vegas a destroyed community? Last time I checked, the state of Nevada was the fastest growing state between 1990 and 2000, by a rate of 50%, according to the U. S. Census.
 

Wannaplan?

Bounty Hunter
Messages
3,219
Points
29
Mike D. said:
Are those casinos regulated in any way. Meaning, are they checked for "fairness"

Yes. I believe NIGA, the National Indian Gaming Association, sets standards for tribal casinos. More at www.indiangaming.org

When I lived in 29 Palms, CA they always said to stay out of the Indian Casinos because they are all fixed.

All casinos are fixed. But not in a covert way. They're fixed because the payout odds are adjusted to favor the house. For example, on a roulette game there are 38 numbers on a North American wheel - 1 through 36 plus 0 and 00. But the odds are paid out according to a schedule based on 35 numbers, not 38. If you have a chip on 6, and the ball lands on 6, you are paid 35:1, a loss of 3.
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
I have one large casino near my home. I live about 4 miles from the reservation. I don't what crowds casinos in your neck of the woods draw, but here they are populated by the retirement crowd, showing up in their half a million dollar Prevost RV's. Not sure they rate high on the crime scale. While they may not be subject to your city's zoning code, do they have thier own? I am working on a commercial property with a local tribe. They have thier own zoning code and it has one of the strictest landscape and parking design guidelines in the state.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
OK. I will admit that my post reflects some cultural, personal, social, and, I'll admit it "moral" biases. I simply don't LIKE the culture behind casinos. The whole "get something for nothing" "let's have some FUN FUN FUN" philosophy. My favorite curmudgeon sums it up pretty good in Las Vegas, Utopia of Clowns.

Call me a moralist old codger, a stick-in-the-mud. I proudly lay claim to these titles when it comes to a proposal like this. I really believe that the Suisun Valley IS a special landscape. We are talking a perfect climate, first class soils, significant natural beauty. Putting a gaudy casino (and all American casinos are gaudy and tacky) in the heart of the valley IS destructive. A casino has totally destoryed a beautiful agricultural valley a few miles north of me (the Capay Valley). We are talking some of the most fertile almond, walnut and fruit orchards in the world buried under a sea of asphalt so someone can have "fun" pulling damn slot machines.

As for Las Vegas' growth meaning that it is a healthy city-well, a tumor grows faster than normal tissue. That doesn't mean health. That means desperation, as the American working class can no longer find jobs in off-shored "real" industry, and Las Vegas is a place an average person can find an income working for the casinos.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
Re: My County will be ruined utterly

BKM said:
Our local freeway system is alread at Level of Service F, the beautiful rural roads nearby are already commuter highways, and my City is already suffering from crime and a population of too many ne'er do wells. I don't care if I am accused of NIMBYism. Casinos destroy communities. They are an inherently evil institution. As they are popping up everywhere, I challenge the "gaming industry" (what a euphimism) to really demostrate that there will be any net benefit to the area-when there is a casino on an "Indian Reservation" every fifty miles.

-Hey I know how you feel. We're still fighting the proposed here in Erie County. After being shut out of converting our convention center into a casino (which is in the middle of the CBD, the traffic would have been a nightmare), the Senecas decided to look at Cheeptovegas (suburb).
Now residents of the bordering towns are in an uproar and calling for it to be put in Buffalo because they say it doesn't belong in a residential neighborhood with schools. Well there's schools and residential neighborhoods downtown so I think they are truly being NIMBYers.
They already put one in Niagara Falls (15 minutes away from Buffalo), and now they're planning to put one on there reservation as well. Nobody got to vote on this (crooked politicians and special interests) while the cities get a relitively weak cut of the shares, plus the added costs of providing social services because of the casinos.
The retarded mayor of buffalo keeps insisting that it be put in buffalo, while most of the citizens oppose it. Buffalo is one of the poorest cities in the country (concentration of poverty) so I don't see why the idiot thinks this will help (maybe help increase the crime). Sorry to rant on.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
BKM - This may hurt you, but I say it out of love. I'm sorry to do this but: I agree with every statement you have made in this thread. Except I know nothing about the site itself. I know that it must hurt being on the same moral ground as a conservative and I wish you the best of luck with your recovery.

That being said. If I were king I'd set a date of, let's say maybe, Jan 1, 2013 and say to all Americans that past that date there will be no legal race distinctions or methods of discrimination or even the recording of race for citizens, legal residents and immigration applicants. Past that date we all are Americans or wanna-bes.

Oh, and Puerto Rico - pick a path. Cause come Jan 1, 2013 you pay taxes or you are on your own. We'll sew a star or we'll send you a lovely parting gift.

Indian Reservations are a stupid idea and born of guilt. Sell the land to the current residents for a buck an acre and then remove the fake soveringty attachments Jan 1, 2013. After that they can build anything that is legal in the City, County, State or nation.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
:) That's ok, El Guapo. I AM from the Midwest, after all. My hometown is pretty conservative overall.

Maybe I should change my sig line?
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
el Guapo said:
[After that they can build anything that is legal in the City, County, State or nation.

Oh but see that is the best part....they are "sovreign nations" unto themselves.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
ludes 98

We are not talking about a "real" reservation here. We are talking about farmland owned by a casino family/land speculator and a "tribe" that has suddenly discovered that they want to return to their "homeland." So, there are no zoning regulations, because we are talking about a single track of land somehow exempted from the surrounding zoning and local control.

As for the crowd, true. But casinos do attract a hard core crowd as well. And, I remain unconvinced that we should bend over and change all of the region's policies and planning so that even the "Greatest Generation" can increase traffic, air pollution, and visual pollution in the interests of "fun."
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
BKM said:

As for Las Vegas' growth meaning that it is a healthy city-well, a tumor grows faster than normal tissue. That doesn't mean health. That means desperation, as the American working class can no longer find jobs in off-shored "real" industry, and Las Vegas is a place an average person can find an income working for the casinos.

Yeah, it's where America's spirit crawled off to die. ;)
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
Re: ludes 98

BKM said:
We are not talking about a "real" reservation here. We are talking about farmland owned by a casino family/land speculator and a "tribe" that has suddenly discovered that they want to return to their "homeland."

Well I think that both sucks and blows. I am familiar with reservations in the traditional sense and the casinos we have here are all located on these lands.

As for the crowd, true. But casinos do attract a hard core crowd as well.

I am not sure that I understand your definition of hard core. Do you mean hells angels bikers, professional casino rip off artists, intravenous drug users, anyone with a criminal record, or someone with marginal poverty line income that maybe has better things to do with money than gamble ?
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
ludes98 said:
Oh but see that is the best part....they are "sovreign nations" unto themselves.

Then we will just have to kick their asses all over again come Jan 2, 2013. No more soverignty past my magic date.
(Sorry Reservationistas)
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
el Guapo said:
Then we will just have to kick their asses all over again come Jan 2, 2013. No more soverignty past my magic date.
(Sorry Reservationistas)

LOL. EG I like your plan. (Sorry Reservationists)
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
Re: Re: My County will be ruined utterly

Wanigas? said:
....What research are you using as the basis for your claim? .......

In reply, there is research that looks at the effects of casinos on local communities after they enter them. The research I remember was from a community in North or South Dakota and the casino's effect on local business (Deadwood City ?).

Local small business suffers in general within about a 10 mile radius of the casino. Local people only have so much disposable cash with which to make entertainment decisions. Because of this, restaurants and other entertainment business' fail. People coming to the community make the same decisions, the majority of which are captured by their gaming destination.

In other words, People spend less than before on local entertainment venues. Instead of spreading the wealth, they concentrate the wealth out of circulation in the community. Limiting the health of the local business community in general.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
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6,463
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29
By hard core, I mean gambling addicts-and the whole sorry panoply of other cultural amenities that you mention. Of course, being somewhat isolated, we won't necessarily see a surfeit of sleaze. But, like all institutions that cater to addictive behavior, I really question the economic benefits to the area. Given that casinos are popping up in areas throughout the state, what population other than local gamblers will they attract? What real economic benefit occurs when your casino is primarily just taking the paychecks of the local elderly and poor/desperate?

ludes: that's the whole problem with our new casinos. They are popping up in random rural areas (relatively cheap land) near urban areas throughout the state.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
11,507
Points
41
A couple of thoughts:

The local casino in *the next county over* has not brought the dreaded crime, prostitution or compulsive gambling the holier than thou crowd crowed about prior to the referendum. Yes traffic is up, but the state re-claimed the highways and is doing an acceptable job of managing it.

Oh, by the way. It is in the floodway of the Ohio River!

The casino spent millions in a two-year archaeological investigation that revealed the history of local indigenous peoples and increased our knowledge of them. Their findings have been published and the artificats displayed locally. (Odd that this is not an "Indian Casino" but rather an "Indiana Casino" digging for Indian artifacts.)

The casino has an exemplary record of contracting with minority and women owned businesses. Certainly better than any local government has been able to do.

Tax revenues to the host county and adjoining counties have aided in purchase/construction of public benefit (i.e., fire houses, libraries, wastewater systems, parks, animal shelters, ) et cetera.

The casino-funded county foundation has pledged $20,000,000 to aid this city in building an olympic sized natatorium and YMCA in the downtown that will spur private development to the tune of $45 million and resurrect this sleepy burg. NO WAY could this happen without that assistance.

It is true, however, that the money taken in by these casinos leaves this area for others (although I'm not convinced that every penny ends up in the hands of La Cosa Nostra et al). How is that different from the thousands of plants around the country sending profits back to the company HQ (which very well may be offshore)?

That being said, I have visited the local casino but once and then only to take my mother for her gambling fix.

I prefer to lose my money betting the ponies at Historic Churchill Downs.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Gedunker: Your points are all made by advocates.
The "holier than thou" crowd can provide similar statistics about the negative impacts of casinos.

Again, as these monstrosities proliferate, the beneftis to a locality decline over time, as there is no need for out-of-towners to travel very far before they can patronize their very own gambling den. So, the local entertainment dollars simply are redirected to the gambling palace (as the South Dakota research shows)

The problem is that the City and this County have made a commitment to preservation of the Suisun Valley. This casino would be imposed on us through an end-run around the County's General Plan, zoning procedures, and public participation process. I know practicing planners all complain about these documents and procedures, but I remain unconvinced that we should chuck 'em all for this type of "amenity."
 

Gedunker

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Moderator
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11,507
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41
BKM said:
Gedunker: Your points are all made by advocates.
The "holier than thou" crowd can provide similar statistics about the negative impacts of casinos.

I don't disagree, but my personal experience is that there has not been. I live 4 miles from the boat. Uniform Crime Reports from local PD bear this out as well.

Again, as these monstrosities proliferate, the beneftis to a locality decline over time, as there is no need for out-of-towners to travel very far before they can patronize their very own gambling den. So, the local entertainment dollars simply are redirected to the gambling palace (as the South Dakota research shows)

Historic Churchill Downs has seen a decline in revenues since the boat opened, as has lottery monies. There is clearly a limit to the discretionary income people use to entertain themselves in this manner.

The problem is that the City and this County have made a commitment to preservation of the Suisun Valley. This casino would be imposed on us through an end-run around the County's General Plan, zoning procedures, and public participation process. I know practicing planners all complain about these documents and procedures, but I remain unconvinced that we should chuck 'em all for this type of "amenity."

I strongly agree that preservation of resources is critical and that the intent of building such a facility in a seemingly pristine agricultural valley -- through an end run -- is almost criminal.

It occurs to me that the tribe may be looking to raise the real estate price so that the City and County pay top dollar to gain control of the land. Is this possible?
 

Wannaplan?

Bounty Hunter
Messages
3,219
Points
29
BKM said:
Call me a moralist old codger, a stick-in-the-mud. I proudly lay claim to these titles when it comes to a proposal like this.

While you're at it, why don't you tie a fifth of J.D. to a fishing pole and dangle it in front of the teepee door? Nothing distracts them damn injuns like a bottle of good whisky.

BKM said:
I really believe that the Suisun Valley IS a special landscape. We are talking a perfect climate, first class soils, significant natural beauty. Putting a gaudy casino (and all American casinos are gaudy and tacky) in the heart of the valley IS destructive. A casino has totally destoryed a beautiful agricultural valley a few miles north of me (the Capay Valley). We are talking some of the most fertile almond, walnut and fruit orchards in the world buried under a sea of asphalt so someone can have "fun" pulling damn slot machines.

Irony is wonderful!

[mod note] posts merged [/mod note]
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Wanigas: I would suggest a relocation to israel, where they REALLY know how to keep inter-generational hatreds and "tit for tat" destructive policy decisions alive.
 

plankton

Cyburbian
Messages
750
Points
21
Interesting thread. Some laughs, some cringes, all good, frank discussions though.....

I'm split on the issue but for the most part am generally okay with the native american casino thing, at least here in Oregon. I have seen more than a few timber-dependant depressed towns (Canyonville especially) come rumbling back to life (relatively speaking, of course) as a result of casinos having been built in their immediate vicinity.

Casino jobs tend to be good paying, stable jobs in areas (at least here in OR) that tend to need jobs.....badly.

I don't buy the crime thing one bit. Maybe it's different in the midwest but casinos here probably attract less shadiness than the local convenience store (or party store, as we michiganders like to call them).

Profitable casinos in OR give lots back to their local communities in way of grants, park enhancement projects, road building/repairing, etc.. Is that not happening elsewhere?
 

Kathie_WE

Cyburbian
Messages
34
Points
2
Re: My County will be ruined utterly

BKM said:
.. with a proposal to build ... in the middle of our agricultural preserve. ....

What is the point of having an ag preserve district if it will be built upon??? This is a dangerous slippery slope. No matter what the use is, building in such areas is a bad idea that should be fought at all costs!!!!
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
plankton said:
Casino jobs tend to be good paying, stable jobs in areas (at least here in OR) that tend to need jobs.....badly.
Profitable casinos in OR give lots back to their local communities in way of grants, park enhancement projects, road building/repairing, etc.. Is that not happening elsewhere?

For every 1casino job created, 2 non-casino jobs are lost. Most of these casinos do not generate outside revenue in the form of tourist dollars, but money from within the community that would have otherwise be spent on other goods/services. How many people are going to want to go to some casino in the middle of a corn field? There is only one destination in the country known for gambling and entertainment and its Las Vegas.
Yeah there's Atlantic City, but how much development is going on past the casinos? Only decay and blight.
Niagara Falls is a different story because tourist dollars are always flowing through the area. The American side is still a dump and gambling isn't going to save our side of the river. Already crime is rising, although the casino advocates will tell you otherwise. The senecas can now buy land adjacent to the casino and basically take it off the tax rolls.
There is already a glut of casinos on the canadian side which is why residents in Erie County and Buffalo are opposed to having a casino. But still a few people think they know what medicane is good for us.
Off topic I was watching Oceans Eleven last night and am in the midst of planning on heisting one of the local casinos.:)
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
Hey we've got our problems here too, BKM.

Saturday, October 18th Oneida Dispatch reported the following
SCHUMER EXPECTS BUSINESS CLIMATE TO IMPROVE IN UPSTATE(that sounds funny)

VERNON - U. S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D. N.Y., called the Oneida
Indian Nation land claim issue a "DARK CLOUD HANGING OVER OUR HEADS" at
the Greater Oneida Chamber of Commerce banquet Friday night. 'I'M FED
UP," SCHUMER SAID. "WE NEED TO LIFT THAT CLOUD, AND WE NEED TO DO IT
ONCE AND FOR ALL. THEY CAN'T HIDE BEHIND SOVEREIGNTY, USING THAT AS AN
EXCUSE NOT TO COLLECT TAXES AND NOT TO OBEY ZONING LAWS," SCHUMER SAID.
"YOU CAN'T CREATE A WHOLE NEW NATION WITHIN A COUNTY OR A TOWN. WE'VE
GOT TO FIND A WAY TO STOP IT. IT WORKED FINE OUT WEST WHERE THERE IS A
LOT OF OPEN LAND, IT DOESN'T WORK IN THE MIDDLE OF AN URBAN AREA. WE
CAN'T HAVE TWO SETS OF LAWS RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER."
Schumer told the audience that he was working on legislation to
remedy that as well as legislation to stop the Cayuga Seneca Indians of
Wisconsin from building a bingo hall in New York State.
'"I'M FOR GAMBLING IF THE COMMUNITY IS FOR IT' SCHUMER SAID "BUT
I'M NOT FOR IT IF THE COMMUNITY DOES NOT WANT IT."
Schumer said that the problem of sovereign nations does not exist
only in New York, and that he is willing to address the issue head-on.
 

Wannaplan?

Bounty Hunter
Messages
3,219
Points
29
BKM said:
Wanigas: I would suggest a relocation to israel, where they REALLY know how to keep inter-generational hatreds and "tit for tat" destructive policy decisions alive.

Yeah, that was a dumb post on my part. My point was that tribal casinos are here to stay, they're perfectly legal, and there's not much we, as planners, can do about them. For the tribes, they're incredible for economic development, but for the local communities they are indeed troublesome. As a peace offering, I'll share this funny cartoon by Peter Bagge, writing for Reason and creator of the Hate comic books:







 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Lower costs are only one reason that casinos are being located in rural areas. Income is the other. The casino may itself be popular, but when it is two or threee hours from the population, there is also a need for a hotel and restaurants. The upside of this is that the people who go to these casinos tend to be better off financially, may spend more money locally, and are unlikely to start committing crimes. Urban areas are more likely to attract people who really can't afford to bet, and the people who can prey on casino visitors, hence more crime.

All that said, I am still against any casino going into prime agricultural land. It will only lead to the loss of more of those beautiful orchards, and higher costs for roads and other infrastructure. I wonder if any jurisdiction has attempted to control casino development by its control over the road system leading to the site. Why not defer maintenance, refuse to widen roads, put in more traffic controls, even close off some roads to make an overly long and confusing route to the casino site?
 
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