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Signs Large Confederate flags

Messages
2,359
Points
20
A massive $800 Confederate flag, 20 x 30 feet, was raised along North Carolina highway I-40 in Burke County.

"County leaders can’t remove the [Confederate} flags because they are on private property and there are no ordinances against it."
 

Linda_D

Cyburbian
Messages
1,745
Points
20
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A massive $800 Confederate flag, 20 x 30 feet, was raised along North Carolina highway I-40 in Burke County.

"County leaders can’t remove the [Confederate} flags because they are on private property and there are no ordinances against it."
As long as it's been paid for with private funds and on private property, I don't care. It's like the issue of nativity scenes or crosses or menorahs being displayed on public property -- they give tacit government sanction and support to specific religions -- so just put them on private property.



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Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
12,985
Points
53
A massive $800 Confederate flag, 20 x 30 feet, was raised along North Carolina highway I-40 in Burke County.

"County leaders can’t remove the [Confederate} flags because they are on private property and there are no ordinances against it."

Unfortunately, there's actually 4 or 5 of these around the WNC region.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,787
Points
32
A massive $800 Confederate flag, 20 x 30 feet, was raised along North Carolina highway I-40 in Burke County.

"County leaders can’t remove the [Confederate} flags because they are on private property and there are no ordinances against it."
Did they apply for and obtain a permit?
Can this be considered a "sign" and regulated under those provisions?
It might be in the flight path of an airport or migrating wildlife, or be a regulated use.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
7,094
Points
39
Did they apply for and obtain a permit?
Can this be considered a "sign" and regulated under those provisions?
It might be in the flight path of an airport or migrating wildlife, or be a regulated use.
No way. That's a political bomb right there. As an administrator of a sign code in rural North Carolina, I wouldn't touch that with the flag pole it was hung from. The Sons of Confederate Veterans will tell you all day every day that they are "not racist" but they are, every damn one of them. It's like arguing with one of their coveted Confederate statues, the conversation will go absolutely nowhere.
 
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Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,787
Points
32
No way. That's a political bomb right there. As an administrator of a sign code in rural North Carolina, I wouldn't touch that with the flag pole it was hung from. The Sons of Confederate Veterans will tell you all day every day that they are "not racist" but they are, every damn one of them. It's like arguing with one of their coveted Confederate statues, the conversation will go absolutely nowhere.
What was the size of the smaller one? In my fair city, a billboard company decided to swap out all their faces with frameless ones (without a permit) and they got nailed.
From the looks of the TV footage, this is way oversized for the flagpole. They'll be needing a BP to repair or replace that structure.
I would think the nearby DDA, already opposed to it, could apply some pressure from member businesses.
 

bureaucrat#3

Member
Messages
44
Points
3
Did they apply for and obtain a permit?
Can this be considered a "sign" and regulated under those provisions?
It might be in the flight path of an airport or migrating wildlife, or be a regulated use.
The most reaching code interpretation I've ever made was to discourage almost this same thing. I was able to mix together some structure height, sign regs, illumination standards and bufferyards to tell a guy he could put one up but it would be so short and obscured that it wouldn't seen. After a couple of conversations he eventually went away. I was fairly sure I was going to wind up in court, but never heard from him again.

When I looked him up on facebook, he was light on the heritage, heavy on the hate. Lots of nooses.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
7,094
Points
39
When I looked him up on facebook, he was light on the heritage, heavy on the hate. Lots of nooses.
99% of them are. They can say all they want to that it's about "heritage not hate" but that's a load of bullshit. The show Friends was on TV for longer than the Confederacy existed. There is absolutely no heritage there. None.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,055
Points
50
No way. That's a political bomb right there. As an administrator of a sign code in rural North Carolina, I wouldn't touch that with the flag pole it was hung from. The Sons of Confederate Veterans will tell you all day every day that they are "not racist" but they are, every damn one of them. It's like arguing with one of their coveted Confederate statues, the conversation will go absolutely nowhere.
I had not heard about that one... In our area, we had someone put one up on their house in my neighborhood. It took 30 minutes before the HOA was knocking on his door telling him that it was a violation of the HOA regs. I hear he was stomping his feet saying he will take them to court. I really hope he can't find an attorney because I don't want my HOA bill to go up because of a legal battle.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
12,985
Points
53
Did they apply for and obtain a permit?
Can this be considered a "sign" and regulated under those provisions?
It might be in the flight path of an airport or migrating wildlife, or be a regulated use.

  • A flagpole does not require a permit
  • It is not considered a sign
  • Not on the flight path or similar




Those things initially went up the soon after the Charlottesville incident. There was 1 (of at least 4 or 5) that went up just outside our ETJ. I called the county inspectors and they said a flagpole was not a structure and did not require a permit, even for that size. They were not going to touch it with an 80' flagpole.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
11,438
Points
39
A flag is surely content, and as we all know after Reed v. Gilbert, regulating content ist verboten.
 

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,082
Points
21
A flag is surely content, and as we all know after Reed v. Gilbert, regulating content ist verboten.
You can regulate them, just not BASED on content. You can regulate signs based on physical aspects such as materials and heights, just not on messaging.

Here's a fun case happening in my region. Louisa County is halfway between Charlottesville and Richmond.

 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
14,808
Points
51
I regulated it in Kansas by saying flags are allowed without a permit if they are an accepted national flag (ie US, POW, etc.), state flag, or corporate identity. Since the conferedate flag is not an accepted national flag (neither is the don't tread on me) then the answer is no.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,055
Points
50
You can regulate them, just not BASED on content. You can regulate signs based on physical aspects such as materials and heights, just not on messaging.
Size and location, size and location.

32 square feet on a residential property.... I could enforce that all day long.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
7,094
Points
39
I regulated it in Kansas by saying flags are allowed without a permit if they are an accepted national flag (ie US, POW, etc.), state flag, or corporate identity. Since the conferedate flag is not an accepted national flag (neither is the don't tread on me) then the answer is no.
I'd still say that is in violation of Reed v. Gilbert. If you have to READ the sign (or flag in this case), then the code is no good. It needs to be content neutral, meaning what is on the sign/flag is irrelevant and cannot be enforced.
 

arcplans

As Featured in "High Times"
Messages
6,641
Points
32
You can regulate them, just not BASED on content. You can regulate signs based on physical aspects such as materials and heights, just not on messaging.
All of this. This was the crux of Reed v. Town of Gilbert.
I regulated it in Kansas by saying flags are allowed without a permit if they are an accepted national flag (ie US, POW, etc.), state flag, or corporate identity. Since the conferedate flag is not an accepted national flag (neither is the don't tread on me) then the answer is no.
This is content based interpretation, which would be a violation of the case. I went through this exact same argument with my boss. I argued we couldn't exempt one versus the other. The CA sided with me.

Size and location, size and location.
Say it with me.. time, place, manner. Time, place, manner. TIME. PLACE. MANNER. Here is what our new sign ordinance says.
1594246857216.png
So therefore it would be a go in my muni, however, if it exceeds those sizes you best better believe I will be out there with a tape measure ensuring it is meets the size, and probably look for any other violation known possible.

If anyone wants a copy of our sign code (for a smaller muni) let me know. Would be happy to share :usa: :D
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
13,755
Points
55
The flag issue-I wouldn't even acknowledge such 'things'. I would privately off the record say it is political free speech and I'm not going to send myself to the State Supreme Court.

Ignore...ignore.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,787
Points
32
Did they apply for and obtain a permit?
Can this be considered a "sign" and regulated under those provisions?
It might be in the flight path of an airport or migrating wildlife, or be a regulated use.
Forgot ... fall zone. What's it close to, whose house will it fall on?

Didja know that a monopole cell tower can pull itself out of the ground and tumble like the star of a caber toss? At least that's what some jurisdictions tried to tell me, back in the day.
 

bureaucrat#3

Member
Messages
44
Points
3
Say it with me.. time, place, manner. Time, place, manner. TIME. PLACE. MANNER. Here is what our new sign ordinance says.
View attachment 48567
I get it and the sign ordinance I was using at the time had not been updated to be content neutral so everything was fairly iffy. My question to your sign ordinance above is doesn't calling out government flags vs other flags create a content issue? I think my current ordinance is pretty similar, so I'm not judging.
 

arcplans

As Featured in "High Times"
Messages
6,641
Points
32
I get it and the sign ordinance I was using at the time had not been updated to be content neutral so everything was fairly iffy. My question to your sign ordinance above is doesn't calling out government flags vs other flags create a content issue? I think my current ordinance is pretty similar, so I'm not judging.
Potentially, however in the definitions, it is defined as a government flag flown on city, state, federal, or special district buildings.
 

Maister

Chairman of the bored
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
28,414
Points
71
Potentially, however in the definitions, it is defined as a government flag flown on city, state, federal, or special district buildings.
You might be able to argue that this was/is a governmental flag:
1594315394447.png

However, the confederate battle flag is/was not the flag of any government.
 

Tobinn

Cyburbian
Messages
325
Points
11
This is how my fair city handles flags (confederate, American, state or whatever):

D. Flagpoles and flags; flag brackets, flag stanchions, and Flags.

1. Flagpoles and flags. For each parcel and development site in residential use with one principal structure, one flagpole may be installed and up to two flags may be displayed per flagpole. For each parcel and development site that is one-half acre or less in size and is in residential use with more than one principal structure or nonresidential use, one flagpole may be installed and up to two flags may be displayed per flagpole. For each parcel and development site that is over one-half acre in size and is in residential use with more than one principal structure or in nonresidential use, up to three flagpoles may be installed and up to two flags may be displayed per flagpole. A flag shall not exceed 24 square feet in size.

2. Flag brackets, flag stanchions, and flags. For each principal structure on a parcel, up to two flag brackets or stanchions may be attached or placed for the display of flags. A flag displayed from a flag bracket or a flag stanchion shall not exceed 24 square feet in size.

3. For the purpose of determining the size of a flag, only one side of the flag shall be counted as the display surface.

4. Flags may be externally illuminated.

5. Flagpoles shall not exceed 35 feet in height.
 
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