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Lowest salaries for planning jobs that you've seen

stroskey

Cyburbian
Messages
1,212
Points
17
That's not a real post. That's the exact word-for-word job description of Senior Planners provided by the APA.
 

ramrod

Member
Messages
7
Points
0
On the other side of things. I have a friend with 13 years experience making $240,000 a year (tax free) as a senior planner in Abu Dhabi.
 

arcplans

As Featured in "High Times"
Messages
6,446
Points
26
[OT]
On the other side of things. I have a friend with 13 years experience making $240,000 a year (tax free) as a senior planner in Abu Dhabi.
Highly doubt this is tax free (he does have to pay income taxes if he/she is a resident of the states). [/OT]
 

OfficialPlanner

Cyburbian
Messages
930
Points
22
[OT]

Highly doubt this is tax free (he does have to pay income taxes if he/she is a resident of the states). [/OT]
If the friend is an American citizen and self reporting to the IRS... it's an easy tax cheat (but still legally and morally wrong) as Abu Dhabi isn't issuing 1099s.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,279
Points
43
I always keep my eyes open for things as I am self employed and always looking for more clients... but only if I can justify the costs. One rural township listed a job for $12.50 per hour for 20 hours per week. We pay our nanny more than that.

Another township has a position open that is part time and the top end of the range was more than double what I made as a planner 1 working full time 12 years ago.

Personally, my income is still less than the average on the APA scale. I could get there, but my billables would be approaching 60 hours per week.
 

joshking2

Cyburbian
Messages
116
Points
6
Asking for the world

I just ran across this posting today for a town in Eastern TN.
"The Town of Greeneville is seeking a full-time Planner to join our Building/Zoning/Planning team. Ideal candidate is an enthusiastic, detailed–oriented, hand’s–on individual with a strong knowledge of all phases of Planning. Reviews and evaluates various types of land use applications, project designs, plans and technical documents for compliance with Town standards and regulatory requirements. Assist in developing and implementing comprehensive land use plan, updating the town's zoning and subdivision regulations. Makes presentation/ recommendations to Planning Commission and Town Council. Additional duties include: ensuring compliance with Town’s MS4 permit which (stormwater presentations, public education, and responsible for stormwater maintenance agreements). Proficient in Microsoft and GIS. Bachelor's degree from accredited college/university urban planning, engineering, or related field; advance degree desired. Prefer five-years experience in municipal planning and AICP certification. Salary range from $36-$40K!

Planning and planners aren't too highly valued in the mountains but $36-$40K? That salary range for the job duties and requirements are almost insulting!
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,289
Points
29
Yeah

I just ran across this posting today for a town in Eastern TN.
"The Town of Greeneville is seeking a full-time Planner to join our Building/Zoning/Planning team. Ideal candidate is an enthusiastic, detailed–oriented, hand’s–on individual with a strong knowledge of all phases of Planning. Reviews and evaluates various types of land use applications, project designs, plans and technical documents for compliance with Town standards and regulatory requirements. Assist in developing and implementing comprehensive land use plan, updating the town's zoning and subdivision regulations. Makes presentation/ recommendations to Planning Commission and Town Council. Additional duties include: ensuring compliance with Town’s MS4 permit which (stormwater presentations, public education, and responsible for stormwater maintenance agreements). Proficient in Microsoft and GIS. Bachelor's degree from accredited college/university urban planning, engineering, or related field; advance degree desired. Prefer five-years experience in municipal planning and AICP certification. Salary range from $36-$40K!

Planning and planners aren't too highly valued in the mountains but $36-$40K? That salary range for the job duties and requirements are almost insulting!
WOW! We are about at the level of social worker pay......wouldn't it be great if APA scanned the adds for obvious BS like this and played a bit more active roll in contacting these organizations to correct either the language of the add or increase the pay? There I go into la la land again......:r:
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,650
Points
38
WOW! We are about at the level of social worker pay......wouldn't it be great if APA scanned the adds for obvious BS like this and played a bit more active roll in contacting these organizations to correct either the language of the add or increase the pay? There I go into la la land again......:r:
If nothing else at least protect the AICP thing by saying you need a certain pay scale to job description before you start preferring it. I'd prefer to win the lottery, still hasn't happened.
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,289
Points
29
Yeah.....

If nothing else at least protect the AICP thing by saying you need a certain pay scale to job description before you start preferring it. I'd prefer to win the lottery, still hasn't happened.
I actually ran for APA office in Arizona on the grounds that I would be actively promoting certified planners and educating jurisdictions on the benefits of certified planners. It went no where and apparently no one gave a shat about that type of thinking......oh well.....it was Arizona.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,650
Points
38
You actually thought the people voting for the candidates cared about advancing the APA? I usually just throw darts for my voting, who knows, I may have voted for you when I was in AZ.
 

DetroitPlanner

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
6,241
Points
26
This thread should be a wake up call for all those young posters here who have to go to the finest most expensive school they can get into.

I just ran across this posting today for a town in Eastern TN.
"The Town of Greeneville is seeking a full-time Planner to join our Building/Zoning/Planning team. Ideal candidate is an enthusiastic, detailed–oriented, hand’s–on individual with a strong knowledge of all phases of Planning. Reviews and evaluates various types of land use applications, project designs, plans and technical documents for compliance with Town standards and regulatory requirements. Assist in developing and implementing comprehensive land use plan, updating the town's zoning and subdivision regulations. Makes presentation/ recommendations to Planning Commission and Town Council. Additional duties include: ensuring compliance with Town’s MS4 permit which (stormwater presentations, public education, and responsible for stormwater maintenance agreements). Proficient in Microsoft and GIS. Bachelor's degree from accredited college/university urban planning, engineering, or related field; advance degree desired. Prefer five-years experience in municipal planning and AICP certification. Salary range from $36-$40K!

Planning and planners aren't too highly valued in the mountains but $36-$40K? That salary range for the job duties and requirements are almost insulting!
You get what you pay for. Here is main street, Greeneville: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=greeneville+tn&hl=en&ll=36.163565,-82.83185&spn=0.003885,0.008256&sll=45.00109,-86.270553&sspn=13.93552,33.815918&t=h&hnear=Greeneville,+Greene+County,+Tennessee&z=18&layer=c&cbll=36.163565,-82.83185&panoid=S_bJB0yfnMGW1gSxB_uoEg&cbp=12,164.75,,0,8.89

Not exactly a lively place where planning is highly valued.
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,289
Points
29
Oh Man!!!

That place REEKS of POTENTIAL!!! 8-! That photo sums up the USA in general, underutilized and underfunded to make anything great anymore. This is what happens when 40% of all the money in this country is either rotting overseas in some BS Bank for the 0.01% and barely anyone can make a living wage these days, let alone enough to turn these streets in to kick ass places to live and work.

LAME
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
9,605
Points
31
Looking at the demographics of Greeneville and Greene County, TN and the cost of living in the area, that $36k - $40k salary doesn't really look all that terrible. I don't think their going to get much luck attracting somebody who has 5+ years experience and AICP, but if I were just finishing undergrad (and wasn't one of these fresh graduates these days with loads and loads of debt) I wouldn't be put off by that salary at all. If the benefits are good and there is an opportunity for advancement, or at least getting some good experience under the belt in a few years, this job would be downright attractive, especially for somebody who likes the more rural areas or wants to be in the mountains.

I also agree that the Google Streetview of the downtown just screams potential. Even if the buildings are empty or under-utilized, at least they look to be pretty well maintained.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,650
Points
38
This thread should be a wake up call for all those young posters here who have to go to the finest most expensive school they can get into.



You get what you pay for. Here is main street, Greeneville: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=greeneville+tn&hl=en&ll=36.163565,-82.83185&spn=0.003885,0.008256&sll=45.00109,-86.270553&sspn=13.93552,33.815918&t=h&hnear=Greeneville,+Greene+County,+Tennessee&z=18&layer=c&cbll=36.163565,-82.83185&panoid=S_bJB0yfnMGW1gSxB_uoEg&cbp=12,164.75,,0,8.89

Not exactly a lively place where planning is highly valued.
There's life there! Look at the multi-use street. I saw a car driving on it, a car parked somewhere, a lady waiting to cross using a mid block crossing, and a kid riding a skateboard in the middle of the street.
Put a little burger stand and some actually interesting shops beyond an antique store and you've got it made. I'm sure the local planner is keeping business down though, isn't that our job?
 

HomerJ

Cyburbian
Messages
1,044
Points
15
I just ran across this posting today for a town in Eastern TN.
"The Town of Greeneville is seeking a full-time Planner to join our Building/Zoning/Planning team. Ideal candidate is an enthusiastic, detailed–oriented, hand’s–on individual with a strong knowledge of all phases of Planning. Reviews and evaluates various types of land use applications, project designs, plans and technical documents for compliance with Town standards and regulatory requirements. Assist in developing and implementing comprehensive land use plan, updating the town's zoning and subdivision regulations. Makes presentation/ recommendations to Planning Commission and Town Council. Additional duties include: ensuring compliance with Town’s MS4 permit which (stormwater presentations, public education, and responsible for stormwater maintenance agreements). Proficient in Microsoft and GIS. Bachelor's degree from accredited college/university urban planning, engineering, or related field; advance degree desired. Prefer five-years experience in municipal planning and AICP certification. Salary range from $36-$40K!

Planning and planners aren't too highly valued in the mountains but $36-$40K? That salary range for the job duties and requirements are almost insulting!

Are there any planners out there who are both technically qualified and interested in this job? I agree with the other sentiments that this could be a great opportunity for an up-and-comer; 36-40K seems like more of an appropriate salary for an entry-level or 1 year professional in my opinion. Low-cost of living only goes so far. How could anyone travel/buy a house/pay off their masters degree/support a family on that wage?
 

mike gurnee

Cyburbian
Messages
3,066
Points
30
When no one applies who meets all their standards, then they can hire the commission chair's niece with no credentials.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,079
Points
34
I guess I may differ from the views of other posters. I have no problem with a community listing all of the qualifications they prefer, even with a low salary. It is up to those responding to the ad to weigh if the compensation is adequate. The community will likely find that the people applying do not meet all of their listed preferences, and will then need to make a choice of either increasing the salary or accepting a candidate who may have an advanced degree but less experience, may not be proficient in GIS, may not have AICP, etc. Maybe they will pay for the person to take their AICP exam. Maybe in the end, they don't care. And maybe they will find somebody with all of the qualifications, who will accept the job. It certainly is not the role of APA to contact the community and tell them to increase the salary.
 

nrschmid

Cyburbian
Messages
2,857
Points
20
It certainly is not the role of APA to contact the community and tell them to increase the salary.


Frankly, it's no one's business to dictate salaries for another organization, municipality, corporation, etc.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
14,749
Points
39
It certainly is not the role of APA to contact the community and tell them to increase the salary.


Frankly, it's no one's business to dictate salaries for another organization, municipality, corporation, etc.
Sure, but it wouldn't hurt for them to protect the coveted AICP. Providing literature to communities who ask for AICP and obviously have no idea the value, seems pretty reasonable to me.

The idea that APA can't push harder in this area, seems like another excuse for APA to not do anything.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,650
Points
38
Sure, but it wouldn't hurt for them to protect the coveted AICP. Providing literature to communities who ask for AICP and obviously have no idea the value, seems pretty reasonable to me.

The idea that APA can't push harder in this area, seems like another excuse for APA to not do anything.
A lot of this argument is the fun HR stuff which I'm not a huge fan of. There is a difference between preferred and required, but it can backfire on you like our county is learning when they hired someone who did not have the preferred qualifications over someone that did (not planning related, but just a fun story on its own). I would just like to see the APA do something to put more in my pocket or at least give the AICP title a little more respect. No, they can't dictate wages to anyone, but if that county does hire someone at that low wage it affects and class and comp study that would be done in the area. I've had my wages go up because of those and I've seen others have their wage cut. Maybe someone can just send them a copy of the salary survey to point out most AICP people are paid a little better.
 

nrschmid

Cyburbian
Messages
2,857
Points
20
Sure, but it wouldn't hurt for them to protect the coveted AICP. Providing literature to communities who ask for AICP and obviously have no idea the value, seems pretty reasonable to me.

The idea that APA can't push harder in this area, seems like another excuse for APA to not do anything.
One of the few exceptions might be establishing hourly rates for certain services/procedures/codes for medical insurance. My mom, an LCSW in private practice, has medicare reimbursable rates which are fixed. Granted, they haven't changed much in twenty years. Another exception might be federal government pay grades.

I have been saying this for at least 6-7 years, if you want AICP to be taken seriously in the general public, replace it with professional licensure. It's not going to guarantee higher salaries, because we are not a union. If a community doesn't want to pay extra for an AICP planner, they can hire anyone off the street. Our profession is not rocket science. You can sit for the exam with a high school diploma and eight years of experience.
 

bentobox34

Cyburbian
Messages
62
Points
4
As a general comment, coming from one of the expensive west coast metro areas, planner salaries in other parts of the country are pretty shocking to me. I have often thought that moving to a lower cost area would be beneficial in the long run, but the numbers I'm seeing make me think twice.

Without divulging my exact salary, I am in a mid-level position (below Senior Planner) with a published salary range around $80-100k, subject to annual 3% COLAs. In other words, the low end is double the high end of the recently discussed position, which looks like it is asking for about the same level of experience.

Within the past year I pursued a position in another region of the country where I have family nearby. For a position with the title "Senior Planner" the best they could offer me was about a 40% pay cut from my current salary. Even considering the drastically lower cost of housing in the area, after running the numbers I couldn't justify the move. Most expenses other than housing, not the least being my student loan payments, are more or less the same between areas.

My anecdotal observation is that there seems to be a widening disparity between planner salaries in different regions of the country, perhaps moreso than the APA survey would suggest.
 

CubbieBlue

Cyburbian
Messages
142
Points
6
As a general comment, coming from one of the expensive west coast metro areas, planner salaries in other parts of the country are pretty shocking to me. I have often thought that moving to a lower cost area would be beneficial in the long run, but the numbers I'm seeing make me think twice.

Without divulging my exact salary, I am in a mid-level position (below Senior Planner) with a published salary range around $80-100k, subject to annual 3% COLAs. In other words, the low end is double the high end of the recently discussed position, which looks like it is asking for about the same level of experience.

Within the past year I pursued a position in another region of the country where I have family nearby. For a position with the title "Senior Planner" the best they could offer me was about a 40% pay cut from my current salary. Even considering the drastically lower cost of housing in the area, after running the numbers I couldn't justify the move. Most expenses other than housing, not the least being my student loan payments, are more or less the same between areas.

My anecdotal observation is that there seems to be a widening disparity between planner salaries in different regions of the country, perhaps moreso than the APA survey would suggest.
If you are making $80-100k as a mid-level position, you will be hard pressed to find anything commesurate outside of the west coast below a Senior/Management/Asst. Director level.
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,289
Points
29
Yeah....ah.....

Those high paying jobs on the "West Coast" are really only in certain counties and cities located on the actual coast. Move just one county to the east and you see a dramatic drop in salaries.
 

Tide

Cyburbian
Messages
2,715
Points
21
I just ran across this posting today for a town in Eastern TN.
"The Town of Greeneville is seeking a full-time Planner to join our Building/Zoning/Planning team. Ideal candidate is an enthusiastic, detailed–oriented, hand’s–on individual with a strong knowledge of all phases of Planning. Reviews and evaluates various types of land use applications, project designs, plans and technical documents for compliance with Town standards and regulatory requirements. Assist in developing and implementing comprehensive land use plan, updating the town's zoning and subdivision regulations. Makes presentation/ recommendations to Planning Commission and Town Council. Additional duties include: ensuring compliance with Town’s MS4 permit which (stormwater presentations, public education, and responsible for stormwater maintenance agreements). Proficient in Microsoft and GIS. Bachelor's degree from accredited college/university urban planning, engineering, or related field; advance degree desired. Prefer five-years experience in municipal planning and AICP certification. Salary range from $36-$40K!

Planning and planners aren't too highly valued in the mountains but $36-$40K? That salary range for the job duties and requirements are almost insulting!
You get what you pay for.

If we as planners don't apply to these horribly low paying jobs the cities/counties would be forced to raise it, but there's always someone out there, somewhere, who will apply.
 

Lowland

Cyburbian
Messages
101
Points
6
This one irked me a bit, and I thought it was worth sharing.

Downtown Planning and Development Coordinator
Downtown Kalamazoo Incorporated

Position Summary:
The Planning and Development Coordinator is responsible for assisting in all DKI activities including downtown comprehensive planning, economic development, urban design, historic preservation, civil engineering, and tax increment financing; updating DKI’s Comprehensive Plan, Capital Improvement Program, Parking Plan; and project implementation; and property management related to acquisition, development and maintenance.

Essential Knowledge and Skills:
Must possess excellent communication and public relations skills. Ability to interact effectively with consumers, downtown visitors, residents, developers, business owners, property owners, designers and public officials. Knowledge of Microsoft XP, Word, Excel, PowerPoint and other computer applications.

Education and Experience:
Requires Bachelor’s degree in Urban Planning, Economic Development, Public Administration, Facilities Management or similar areas with a minimum of three years of experience in a downtown development consulting firm or municipal planning agency. General understanding of the principles and practices of urban planning and economic development.

Salary Range:
$30,000 to $35,000

Downtown Kalamazoo, Inc. Website: www.downtownkalamazoo.org

Not necessarily the worst I've ever seen, but pretty rough in the grand scheme.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
9,605
Points
31
This one irked me a bit, and I thought it was worth sharing.

Downtown Planning and Development Coordinator
Downtown Kalamazoo Incorporated...

Salary Range:
$30,000 to $35,000

Downtown Kalamazoo, Inc. Website: www.downtownkalamazoo.org

Not necessarily the worst I've ever seen, but pretty rough in the grand scheme.
I saw that one too and it left me wondering if this is a part-time or full-time position. I've seen a lot of DDA leadership positions posted and they are often part-time and the have a salary similar to this one. However, the scope of the duties for this one and the size of Kalamazoo would make me think this should be a full-time spot.

It left me scratching my head.
 

DetroitPlanner

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
6,241
Points
26
I saw that one too and it left me wondering if this is a part-time or full-time position. I've seen a lot of DDA leadership positions posted and they are often part-time and the have a salary similar to this one. However, the scope of the duties for this one and the size of Kalamazoo would make me think this should be a full-time spot.

It left me scratching my head.
I was forwarded an add for a planner in K-zoo recently. It paid in the mid 60- mid 70 range. Was not too bad, cost of living there is low too.

I have seen some local jobs listed at part time that have paid about $18 an hour, no bennies.
 

Lowland

Cyburbian
Messages
101
Points
6
I was forwarded an add for a planner in K-zoo recently. It paid in the mid 60- mid 70 range. Was not too bad, cost of living there is low too.

I have seen some local jobs listed at part time that have paid about $18 an hour, no bennies.
There was a full time Associate Planner listing for the Kalamazoo Area Transportation Study that paid $37k-$47k and at minimum required a Bachelor's with no experience, which I thought was pretty reasonable and a good shot for anyone looking at getting into the transportation realm. The cutoff date just passed last Friday by the looks of it.
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,289
Points
29
OMG!

This one irked me a bit, and I thought it was worth sharing.

Downtown Planning and Development Coordinator
Downtown Kalamazoo Incorporated

Position Summary:
The Planning and Development Coordinator is responsible for assisting in all DKI activities including downtown comprehensive planning, economic development, urban design, historic preservation, civil engineering, and tax increment financing; updating DKI’s Comprehensive Plan, Capital Improvement Program, Parking Plan; and project implementation; and property management related to acquisition, development and maintenance.

Essential Knowledge and Skills:
Must possess excellent communication and public relations skills. Ability to interact effectively with consumers, downtown visitors, residents, developers, business owners, property owners, designers and public officials. Knowledge of Microsoft XP, Word, Excel, PowerPoint and other computer applications.

Education and Experience:
Requires Bachelor’s degree in Urban Planning, Economic Development, Public Administration, Facilities Management or similar areas with a minimum of three years of experience in a downtown development consulting firm or municipal planning agency. General understanding of the principles and practices of urban planning and economic development.

Salary Range:
$30,000 to $35,000

Downtown Kalamazoo, Inc. Website: www.downtownkalamazoo.org

Not necessarily the worst I've ever seen, but pretty rough in the grand scheme.
This is CRAZY!! CIP and TIF.....urban design and civil engineering.......YHGTBFKM.......:-{:-@
 

Doberman

Cyburbian
Messages
180
Points
7
It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon to see the only people that would take these jobs will move on to greener pastures pretty quick or get a year or two enough to fill a check in the box in on another application somewhere else.
 

nrschmid

Cyburbian
Messages
2,857
Points
20
This is CRAZY!! CIP and TIF.....urban design and civil engineering.......YHGTBFKM.......:-{:-@
I would stipulate that I either work half the week instead of a standard 40 hours and/or I give them 50% effort. If they can agree to that, sounds like a sweat deal.
 

SW MI Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,195
Points
26
I was forwarded an add for a planner in K-zoo recently. It paid in the mid 60- mid 70 range. Was not too bad, cost of living there is low too.

I have seen some local jobs listed at part time that have paid about $18 an hour, no bennies.
I think quite a few of the staff at DKI is part time. The planner position in Kzoo was for manager of the Planning dept, 4-6 staff.
 

Cismontane

Cyburbian
Messages
900
Points
17
This is CRAZY!! CIP and TIF.....urban design and civil engineering.......YHGTBFKM.......:-{:-@
I wonder if anyone's done a survey correlating median income in a municipality to the planning salaries paid. There's a town of 50,000 in the San Diego metro, with a median household income of $105,000, offering this gem:

http://agency.governmentjobs.com/poway/default.cfm?action=viewclassspec&classSpecID=47398&viewOnly=yes

Assistant Planner, exactly the job description you'd expect, BA/BS, 1 year experience, $60-$72k. ... junior planner in an overstaffed planning department for a small village... If my recollection serves me correctly SDAPA had a job posting for a senior/AD-level position at the town time offering $120-$180k a couple of years ago.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
1,934
Points
25
There is a Planner II position with Somerset County, Pennsylvania being advertised. They are seeking someone with a Bachelor's Degree, at least one year of experience and ESRI knowledge. Salary: $27,000. I felt insulted after reading the ad. People working at Sheetz (regional convenience store chain) make more than that. It's on the APA website if you want to apply :D I'm thinking about emailing and just saying "really?"
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,650
Points
38
So the only person paid well is the mayor? I'm guessing it's a strong mayor form of government, but still, WTF?
It's sad to say I make more than the city attorney working in a rural Kansas county.
 

hilldweller

Cyburbian
Messages
3,865
Points
23
I wonder if anyone's done a survey correlating median income in a municipality to the planning salaries paid. There's a town of 50,000 in the San Diego metro, with a median household income of $105,000, offering this gem:

http://agency.governmentjobs.com/poway/default.cfm?action=viewclassspec&classSpecID=47398&viewOnly=yes

Assistant Planner, exactly the job description you'd expect, BA/BS, 1 year experience, $60-$72k. ... junior planner in an overstaffed planning department for a small village... If my recollection serves me correctly SDAPA had a job posting for a senior/AD-level position at the town time offering $120-$180k a couple of years ago.
That's actually decent compared to what I've seen in some of the wealthy suburbs of the Boston area, where The Town Planner gets paid like 55K and has no staff except for an admin. Usually these towns want 8-10 years of experience and AICP.

Overall I think the great recession hammered planning salaries, not sure if they'll ever recover.
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,289
Points
29
Hmmm

The more I think about it.....that Panama City job is really insulting. It should insult all of us in Planning. Such little respect for the profession, who do they think they are.....Rumpy?

;)
 

Richmond Jake

You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Messages
18,267
Points
43
Considering all the crap that city has to deal with over Spring Break, I can't say I'm surprised.

But seriously, I made more as an intern. That salary is a joke.
Don't confuse Panama City with Panama City Beach. Same county--different worlds.
 

Reefe

Cyburbian
Messages
68
Points
4
They did say "stooping" and "crouching" were the first requirements, in the summary at the end:-c
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,650
Points
38
They may offer some free crack. I hear people will do anything for that stuff, including planning work that involve crouching.
 
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