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Minorities and property values (was: You've got to be kidding me!)

Jessie-J

Cyburbian
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386
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12
I have an issue that I think might make an interesting topic of discussion.

There is a woman in my office who is moving in to a new home soon. She said that she and her husband were looking for the perfect place for a long time and finally came accross one. She said there was another house that they were thinking about putting a bid on but there were "black people in the neighborhood and they don't help the property value".

Now, I live in St. Louis and I am aware that there is a definitively segregated population here, but I guess I was naive in thinking that people were more accepting (at least tolerant) of other races in such an ethnically diverse metro area.

My question is: does/can ethnicity affect property value directly??? There are affluent minority neighborhoods as there are affluent white neighborhoods. What is it?

My personal reaction was first- shock, then appalled. I'm still thinking "how could someone think that?!"
 

Zoning Goddess

Cyburbian
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13,853
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39
Unfortunately, it still happens a lot. Around here, (the Orlando metro area) though, it's mostly a concern about Hispanics. In my immediate neighborhood of about 200 homes, we have half a dozen African American families and maybe one has a yard that looks like hell. Then we have a bunch of caucasian families with overgrown yards, inoperable cars, etc. The most disruptive families are the redneck ones; they and their kids have all their friends over (translate: pickups up and down the road) and they sit our front drinking beer and playing god-awful country music at ear-splitting levels. Lest ya'll think I live in a nasty area, it's an older neighborhood, homes built between the '30's and the '90's, tons of trees, very friendly, etc. Just a few of the smaller homes have gone to seed, so at least around here, it seems to be more a function of families buying the cheapest houses who don't do the normal upkeep.
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
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2,550
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25
Sounds like your co-worker is a real piece of work. My guess is that it is all perception. Unfortunatly some people have an unfair perception that all blacks live in run-down areas of a City and they make the assumption that race is the reason for the low property values, when it is ususaly factors such as crime, neighborhood conditions, schools, etc.
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
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1,551
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24
Race or ethnicity doesn't decrease property value. Negative perceptions about race or ethnicity decrease property value.
 

NHPlanner

Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator
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pete-rock said:
Race or ethnicity doesn't decrease property value. Negative perceptions about race or ethnicity decrease property value.
Bingo.
 

green lizard

Member
Messages
133
Points
6
pete-rock said:
Race or ethnicity doesn't decrease property value. Negative perceptions about race or ethnicity decrease property value.
I agree. And let me add that there are laws against overt
racisim. It is undercover rasisim that is harder to beat.
Just hope they are not teaching their kids what may be
to late for them to unlearn.
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
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25
Re: You've got to be kidding me!

Jessie-J said:

My question is: does/can ethnicity affect property value directly???
In my experience it does. It shouldn't of course, and its embarrassing that this is the case in modern day America. The ugly truth is that even now if you planted several minorities on my block, the property values would go down because of perception - no matter the quality of the new people. I think its worst in the Northeast and older mid-west cities - its one of the downsides of tradition. Aside from the gentrification of a few neighborhoods, I keep seeing the same old trends continuing and until urban and suburban school systems can equal out it'll probably continue.
 

pete-rock

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1,551
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24
Here's another example. Chicago's south suburbs are now undergoing the same kind of racial transformation that the South Side had 40 years ago. Blacks are moving into Calumet City, South Holland, Homewood, Glenwood, Lansing, Matteson, Country Club Hills, Richton Park, etc., and are beginning to constitute a majority of the population there. My guess is that the 2010 Census will bear that out.

On the whole, the blacks moving in tend to be a little older, better educated, more professional, less blue-collar, and with higher incomes than the whites moving out, but the perception among many is that the south suburbs are suffering from the transition.

NBC's Dateline show actually did a story a few years ago about Matteson, following a black family moving in and a white family moving out. The white family said their move wasn't racially motivated. They said they were moving because local school test scores were declining, when they were in fact rising; they said that crime was up, when it was actually way down.

The impact on property values comes when this perception reduces the pool of possible home buyers. There's no doubt that when a segment of the population writes off an area for a new home, the market becomes much smaller. It's that smaller pool that reduces property values. Conversely, it's the artificially high pool of possible home buyers that keeps value up in other areas. Like squeezing a balloon in your hand -- overinflated on one end, underinflated on the other.
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
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3,838
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25
Unfortunately, it also depends on the perception of the particular minority group. My neighborhood has a lot of new Chinese residents. The Chinese are not negatively affecting property values because of most locals’ perception of the Chinese as hard working and studious people who open cute little shops. If they were Hispanics with exactly the same characteristics things would probably be different. Having a local example of a poor neighborhood with the particular minority pushes white flight. People don’t want to stick around as their neighborhood becomes the next [ghetto name]. There are no poor Chinese neighborhoods in the area for people to relate to so they’re not considered a “threat to stability.”

My neighbors have admitted to going to a church outside their parish just because their parish church is too “minority.” The “minority” church is not in a bad area, and is about 70% white.
 
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Exactly HOW are the property values lowered? Do these people go to their assessors and say "**insert minority group here** just moved into my neighborhood......please assess my property at a lower value so I can moan and bitch about it and eventually move out?"

I've got news for some of you people, I'm house hunting right now and may be coming to your neighborhood very soon.
 

Dan

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Planderella, you can be my my neighbor anytime!

Part of my thesis dealt with racial transition in the neighborhood I grew up in. I won't retype it out here, but others summed it up pretty well; it's not the presence of "minority X" that causes property values to drop, but rather the impact the perception of their presence has on the demand for housing. Why the perceptions? As Seabishop said, there might not be many examples of nice neighborhoods dominated by "minority X" in an area; all "majority Y" sees are slums, and they assume that the presence of "minority X" is an indicator of the neighborhood's evolution into a slum.

In newer cities that have developed mostly after World War II outside of the industrial Northeast and race-conscious South, "white flight" isn't so prevalent; there's a much larger percentage of blacks in the middle and upper income classes in places like Denver and Sacramento than in Buffalo or Milwaukee.

I don't think a black homebuyer who moves into an area outside of an area or path where there is a "minority push" will encounter the sort of attitude that Jessie-J described. A black family just two doors down from me in a nearly all-white suburb of Kansas City. They're welcomed with open arms. No eyebrows raised, no "for sale" signs. Why? I live southwest of downtown Kansas City, while the geographic area with a black majority has grown towards the southeast. Jessie - was the subject of your OP considering a home purchase in North County or St. Clair County?

On the other hand, the neighborhood I grew up in was in northeast Buffalo, square in the path of the expanding 'hood. When middle class black families arrived in the 1970s, nobody batted an eyebrow -- unusual given stories I've heard from Chicago and St. Louis. When lower income blacks arrived in the late 1980s and early 1990s, however, both middle class blacks and whites fled. Blacks moving to Cheektowaga, a predomianntly Polish suburb just east of the city limits, are encountering quite a bit of hostility. Older neighborhoods there are "next in line." In the Eggertsville neighborhood in Amherst, just northeast of my old neigborhood, new black residents are encountering little hostility. The area is quite affluent compared to blue-collar Cheektowaga, so residents probably don't fear "slumification" resulting from the presence of their new neighbors.

Typical house in Amherst near the city line (buffaloniagarahomes.com)


Typical house in Cheektowaga near the city line (buffaloniagarahomes.com)


BTW, I owned a house that was a couple of kilometers from the edge of a predominantly African-American suburb called Pine Hills, just west of Orlando. Pine Hills was a large area of mostly starter and mid-level homes, which experienced an influx of lower income black homebuyers in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Folks spoke of "creeping Pine Hills," with more black homebuyers looking for houses on the neighborhood's western edge. When I put my house on the market, a couple of neighbors approached me, and said something along the lines of "hope you don't sell to blacks." I sold the house within a week of listing ... to a Mexican-American guy. ;)
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
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1,551
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24
Dan said:
In newer cities that have developed mostly after World War II outside of the industrial Northeast and race-conscious South, "white flight" isn't so prevalent; there's a much larger percentage of blacks in the middle and upper income classes in places like Denver and Sacramento than in Buffalo or Milwaukee.
I don't know if there's a larger percentage of middle and upper income blacks in post WWII Sun Belt cities, but there is definitely no long history of racial animosity in most of them, and a far greater residential dispersal of blacks overall within those cities as a result. About 90% of all blacks in the Chicago area live on the South Side, the West Side, or a few south suburbs.

On the other hand, the neighborhood I grew up in was in northeast Buffalo, square in the path of the expanding 'hood. When middle class black families arrived in the 1970s, nobody batted an eyebrow -- unusual given stories I've heard from Chicago and St. Louis. When lower income blacks arrived in the late 1980s and early 1990s, however, both middle class blacks and whites fled. Blacks moving to Cheektowaga, a predomianntly Polish suburb just east of the city limits, are encountering quite a bit of hostility. Older neighborhoods there are "next in line."
There's lots written about this in many cities. In Detroit and Chicago, the hostilities were concentrated where the racial dividing line was starkest.
 

pete-rock

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pete-rock said:
Conversely, it's the artificially high pool of possible home buyers that keeps value up in other areas. Like squeezing a balloon in your hand -- overinflated on one end, underinflated on the other.
I don't mean to quote myself, but if you look at the opposite of the minorities/property values issue, you see artificially high values elsewhere.

At least in the Northeast and Midwest, this is one area where affordable housing issues can be addressed.
 

H

Cyburbian
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2,850
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24
I am not sure how this will come across, but…

I have seen how the African American community has fought very hard over the past years to not be discriminated against in Real Estate. I can’t speak for all states, but Ga. has strict laws about steering and real estate discrimination (as they should).

Interestingly enough last week an African American homeowner who was refinancing her mortgage with a friend (white-male), said this after her appraisal came in less than expected:

“You’ve known me for a long time, and you know that I am not a racist, but these Mexicans moving in the neighborhood are hurting my property value” – African American Homeowner.

I have my license in Real Estate (I don’t practice, but got it for fun… to see how easy it was, and it was). Although I have sold homes in the past on occasion, to in fact mostly Mexican Americans.

See I picked up this weird hobby of learning Spanish, and I have a Mexican American friend who is a real estate agent for the Mexican community and he is so busy helping new immigrants out of slum apartments and into owned homes (or condos) that I would sometimes help him on the weekends to pick up some extra cash and satisfaction.

This was taking place in ATL a few years back and I remember the reaction from both white and/ or black homeowners when I brought an immigrant family by, “how can they pay”, I would reply “with money”.

This company was a subset of a Mortgage Bank, so the buyers were always qualified, but even with an official commitment letter to this effect, the sellers would not always believe, and a few times I witnessed sellers selling to non-Mexican buyers for less money and when I asked the selling agent why she would say, “it is a more secure transaction”.

But I guess the point I am trying to make is that it dumbfounded me that the African American community would discriminate against the Mexican community after they have fought (and are still fighting) long and hard for equality of “all” races.

What would make this happen?
 
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Huston said:

But I guess the point I am trying to make is that it dumbfounded me that the African American community would discriminate against the Mexican community after they have fought (and are still fighting) long and hard for equality of “all” races.

What would make this happen?
Why single out African Americans? Discrimination occurs on every level including race, gender, age, religion, etc. Every one of us is capable (and probably guilty) of discriminating against one or the other for various reasons. Of course it's not right, but it will continue to happen.
 

H

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Planderella said:
Why single out African Americans? Discrimination occurs on every level including race, gender, age, religion, etc. Every one of us is capable (and probably guilty) of discriminating against one or the other for various reasons. Of course it's not right, but it will continue to happen.
You are absolutely correct. I guess I just did not expect it from African Americans since they (as a community) have been such leaders to fight racism (Especially in Atlanta).

It just surprised me is all; this shows my ignorance I guess.

Ps. How come it is okay to (rightfully) bash white people discriminating against African Americans throughout this thread, but once I mention that African Americans discriminate against Mexican Americans I am “singling a race out”? I was just stating an example for variety, is all.
 
Last edited:

donk

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6,970
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In my neighbourhood I am definitely the minority, without even commenting on race orreligion, as I am a single white male, university educated, white collar job. I live in the house that probably depreciates everyone around me's property values, but I am trying to fix that.

As for discriminating against people, I am starting to develop a real bigotry/shortness towards people whose families have lived here for more then 100 years.....

On a serious note, I have never really understood this idea that different races bring down property values. For an interesting take on this subject check out Will Eisner's "Dropsie Avenue".
 
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Huston said:


Ps. How come it is okay to (rightfully) bash white people discriminating against African Americans throughout this thread, but once I mention that African Americans discriminate against Mexican Americans I am “singling a race out”? I was just stating an example for variety, is all.
If I recall correctly, none of the other posts specifically named white people as the "discriminators."
 

Dan

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Huston said:
I am not sure how this will come across, but -

[snip]

"You've known me for a long time, and you know that I am not a racist, but these Mexicans moving in the neighborhood are hurting my property value" - African American Homeowner.
With an influx of Hispanics, I would imagine the apprehension comes from having neighbors that you probably can't communicate with.

Outside of the Southwest, I haven't encountered any predominantly Hispanic neighborhoods where the resident population wasn't mostly Spanish speaking. When I lived in New Mexico, the Spanish-as-first -language Hispanics were barrioized, while the English-as-first-language Hispanics were well integrated.

In working and middle class income areas with recent immigrants from Mexico, there are often code enforcement problems, mostly because Mexicans aren't familiar with the concept of zoning or nuisance regulations. CE here seems to have a problem with Mexican immigrants and vehicles - cars parked on lawns, inoperable vehicles, auto repair businesses run out of houses, and so on. It sounds like a stereotype, but unfortunately it's all too true.
 

H

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Planderella said:
If I recall correctly, none of the other posts specifically named white people as the "discriminators."
Oh come on Planderella, please. What has this tread been about then, apple pie?
 

H

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Seriously, I did not make the post on this thread to point fingers, single anyone out, call anyone any names or upset anyone, I was just simply stating a true story about an experience that I found interesting and that was related to the topic, and that is all.

If we can’t talk about it, we can’t solve it.
 

michaelskis

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19,483
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44
I have seen the perception of the connection between the two. But here is it the Hispanics that have moved in from NYC. They assume that they can do what ever they did in NYC, and it would be ok here. So, there are several areas of town where people do not know English, don't keep there yards cleaned up, and do not believe that the city can tell them that they are not aloud to have chickens in the high density residential zone.

It is not because they are Hispanic, it is because they just don't understand the way the city operates. As for African Americans, there is no reason that they should have an effect on property values. If all neighbors took care of there property, then the values will stay high.
 

Wm.J.Lufred

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1
attitude or circumstance

Unfortunately I think the co-worker may have been making a true observation rather than simply displaying her ignorance.
The point she hit on is that in most places there is still a lot of segregation. What she may have been commenting on is the possibility that this area is an area with lower property values, a less affluent area. What she saw as the cause though, may have been the effect.
In my neighborhood,for example, property values have risen (I could no longer afford to purchase my house if I had to do it today). I've also noticed is that the neighborhood is becoming more white (the neighborhood had a better mix than most in the city all along, but is predominently latin American). Take this to mean whatever you will, but more expensive neighborhoods to the west of mine have a large majority white population--this is in a city that is probably 75% black.
We can easily write off the co-workers assertion as overt racism (and it pretty much is that), but we can't deny her observation that , in most cases, you can tell something about the state of a neighborhood by those living there.
Fortunately there are places (particularly in the south) where the trend is being bucked (affluent communities with mostly minority populations). Unfortunately, the sad fact of the matter is that in the U.S. today blacks and other minority groups are still as a whole economically less advantaged than their white counterparts.
This, topic is interesting, what I'd like to know is how people view this in relation to gentrification. I know that philosophically I have issues with gentrification. On the other hand as a home owner I have to ask myself if I would mind it so much if a Starbucks went up on the main drag in my neighborhood (especially since I fully expect not to live in my present home the rest of my life--I refer of course to resale value).
 
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Inverse Question - the PC Version

Why is it that when non-white minorities move into predominantly white neighborhoods, it decreases property values, but when whites move into predominantly non-white minority neighborhoods, it's call gentrification?
 

Wm.J.Lufred

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It doesn't necessarily decrease property values when non-whites move in. But when a bunch of (more affluent) white people (or maybe more affluent people of any race but it seems to be whites when I see it) start moving into a mostly minority neighborhood it's usually not because they want to be close to good ethnic food.
 

Jessie-J

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386
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Dan- she was moving into North County, specifically Florissant.

I have met someone who lives especially in an ethnically diverse neighborhood because of its cultural diversity.

What about stereotypes? I have heard people say that "stereotypes are there for a reason" and that certain actions perpetuate stereotypes. Our social system relies so heavily on the media....what if this stereotype is being perpetuated by the news and sitcoms rather than what is actually taking place? I know that there is alot of misrepresentation in the news and "they show us what they want us to see". I grew up in the ghetto. I NEVER encountered anything that was a result of me being in the slums. In fact, I might even prefer it a bit because I don't have to worry about all those damn restrictions that are in the newer neighborhoods. But that's a whole other issue.... I've never had anything bad happen to me in a bad neighborhood that could change my perceptions...

(sorry so rambly, in a hurry)
 

jresta

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Wm.J.Lufred said:
It doesn't necessarily decrease property values when non-whites move in. But when a bunch of (more affluent) white people (or maybe more affluent people of any race but it seems to be whites when I see it) start moving into a mostly minority neighborhood it's usually not because they want to be close to good ethnic food.
I definitely think this is much more of a class issue than a race issue nowadays. I've seen minority groups move into neighborhoods (Koreans, Vietnamese, Indians) - South Philly in particular and push property values higher than than what the previous white residents could fetch.

As far as gentrification goes - I think the hype is mostly the reactionary left who have been complaining about economic segregation for decades and now that the tide is turning they're going to complain about economic desegregation.

The gentrification bugaboo in Philly right now is in University City. Property values have gone up 300% in 5 years in some cases. The neighborhood is less "white" than it was at the time of the last census. If you're a black guy who has always lived in the neighborhood and you're just getting ready to retire there's no longer any need to worry about your pension.

This is how middle class people make their money - real estate. In a city where owner occupancy is over 70% there's nothing wrong with people of any color cashing in on their investment. The problem is when (and only when) renters and first time buyers alike run out of housing options. This goes with or without urban gentrification and cities should be doing something to make sure that it's not an issue in the future.

I think this country has been moving in a european direction for the last 20 years. One where the poor are sandwiched in a ring between the wealthy in the city center and the middle class in the sprawling suburbs. I just think that people are noticing now because it accelerated rapidly in the late 90's and continues today with people shifting their investments from stocks to real estate.
 

pete-rock

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jresta said:
I think this country has been moving in a european direction for the last 20 years. One where the poor are sandwiched in a ring between the wealthy in the city center and the middle class in the sprawling suburbs. I just think that people are noticing now because it accelerated rapidly in the late 90's and continues today with people shifting their investments from stocks to real estate.
Bingo. I could not agree more.

The new housing market in the Loop and surrounding neighborhoods has hardly slowed, and those homes are not built for the middle class. The poor are being pushed to inner-ring suburbs, and the middle class is blazing the sprawl trail.
 

BKM

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Is this the Patio Man syndrom posted a few months ago?

The family-oriented, not necessarily "sophisticated" middle class moving to the Riverside Counties, the Dupage counties, etc.

The posher inner city neighbrohoods and old money suburbs (Lincoln Park, Santa Monica, Bethesda, Maryland) being inhabited by more bohemian, often but not always more affluent families and young.

The poor get stuck with Hamtranck (sp), Harvey, San Leandro (although with Cali real estate prices, that is even questionable), etc.
 

Tom R

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room

I've got news for some of you people, I'm house hunting right now and may be coming to your neighborhood very soon. [/B][/QUOTE]

I've got a spare bedroom!
 

pete-rock

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BKM said:

The posher inner city neighbrohoods and old money suburbs (Lincoln Park, Santa Monica, Bethesda, Maryland) being inhabited by more bohemian, often but not always more affluent families and young
Don't forget, the bohemians pave the way for the transition of a city neighborhood from downtrodden to posh (see Wicker Park, Greenwich Village, around UPenn's campus, etc.)
 

The Irish One

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If all neighbors took care of there property, then the values will stay high.
Exactly!! In my neighborhood there has been a lot of spanish people moving in. The property value is going nowhere near down. I'm unapologetically a cop about the homeowners association rules, so we can keep our neighborhood looking good. We have a lot of work to do and it's going to get done.

Now, can anyone tell where there are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods? and Hispanic neighborhoods?
 

H

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The Irish one said:


Now, can anyone tell where there are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods? and Hispanic neighborhoods?

Exclusively upper class black neighborhoods = I believe certain neighborhoods on the south side of Atlanta are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods, in fact I recently saw a segment interviewing residents on 20/20 (or one of its competitors).
 

jresta

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I always forget the name of the town but it's along one of the rail lines in north jersey not too far from Montclair and has been a mostly black UPPER class neighborhood for several decades.

"Bergenline" or Bergenline Ave. runs through a few towns in NJ directly across the Hudson from Manhattan. It's upper-middle class Cubans mostly with a fair amount of Puerto Ricans. But then again, the boat lift aside, most Cubans coming to the US came from this background.
 

pete-rock

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The Irish one said:
Now, can anyone tell where there are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods? and Hispanic neighborhoods?
In the Chicago area, there are several upper-middle class and upper class black neighborhoods in the city and suburbs.

In Chicago (South Side, near the lake):
- Pill Hill -- home to many doctors, lawyers and businesspeople
- Avalon Park -- home to many high-ranking public administrators (principals, city officials, etc.)
- Jackson Highlands -- same as above; also home to Jesse Jackson

The above have been upper-middle class havens for blacks for at least 40 years.

In the suburbs (all south suburbs):
- Olympia Fields -- home of this week's U.S. Open
- Country Club Hills
- Flossmoor
- Glenwood
- Lynwood

Except for Olympia Fields, these places may be losing some of their "exclusivity" but they are nonetheless fairly high-income places.

These are all areas that, in the 2000 Census, were at least 50% African-American in population, and had median household incomes exceeding $100,000.
 

pwright1

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Here is a very good example. In central Prince Georges County Maryland outside of Washington D.C. in the Lake Arbor, Woodmore, Kettering areas, these areas are predominately highly educated african americans living in gated communities with homes ranging from $350,000 to well over $100,000,000. But the upscale homes of white neighboring Howard, Montgomery and Fairfax Counties are much more expensive. They also have much better retail. Saks, Neimans, Nordstrom, Macy's and so on. No such retail at the african american Landover Mall in Prince Georges County. Now the 1.2 million square foot mall was forced to close for good in 2002. Everyone likes to eat out. I guess the Woodmore/Kettering black folks don't. No nice restaurants either. No matter if your from the Ciprini Green projects of Chicago or the gated communities of Woodmore blacks are treated the same.
 
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Mod Note: Since this thread has apparently drifted off topic, I've split it and moved it to the appropriate forum.
 

DArchitect

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Once said by a classmate of mine about an exclusive golf-course community in our area when I called it . . . well, exclusive and homogeneous.

"Hampshire Greens is diverse . . . there's a girl Maria who lives there."

Sheer idiocy, wouldn't you say?
 

Jessie-J

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386
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12
I just read that article this morning. Very interesting and relevant information for this thread.
 

bisonman2008

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About Prince George's County:

The mall that you speak of (PG Plaza) is indeed far from an upscale mall. It's middle-class, has a Gap, Hechts (somewhat of a J.C. Penny's for you west coasters), Target, and a myriad of unknown urban style boutiques. This mall is popular mainly because it is DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE METRO. If any one knows anything about living in the Suburbs (especially the affluent ones) having a subway/train station near town is, on paper, a plus, yet at the same time, it brings people from the city to your area (depending on your view of 'city folk' this could be a good thing or a bad thing). My point is, there are people who live in this county, whom are middle class, and who do shop at this mall...HOWEVER, this doesn't take away from the fact that there is still a very large upper middle class population of african-americans. Chevy Chase, and Bethesda (spelling?) are not too far away, so most people drive down there to get their fix at the ridiculously expensive Neiman Marcus/Bloomingdale's....what would be the point of building another neiman marcus less than 20 minutes apart, just to appease segregation...many of these aa's are assimilationists, and don't mind the commute, so to speak.

Other than Prince George's county, there is of course, 'The Vineyard' (martha's vineyard), where the Oak's Bluff area has attracted well to do AA for decades.

Now, blacks are just like anyother group of people in this country. When someone starts making money, the first thing they say is: "I should move to a better neigborhood"...when they make good money, and have children they say: " We should move to a better town...for the kids"...thus you see blacks moving to places like Beverly Hills, Diablo etc. like anyone else...but what you don't see is the fact that there is social interaction between AAs that doesn't involve whites (so a community feeling is identified based on heritage)...AHHH can't get my point across...

ok, ok... the point is, there are affluent all black neigborhoods especially where there are a lot of blacks...yet, in other places (Pacific NW, California, parts of the midwest) where there aren't too many blacks they find their own streets and immediate neighborhoods. On top of this, these people create a social network that isn't physically translated as it is with whitess (country clubs...not too many majority black ones), who are the majority.

wow...hope that made sense, probably not...im going to bed. x|
 

jmello

Cyburbian
Messages
2,583
Points
22
Race or ethnicity doesn't decrease property value. Negative perceptions about race or ethnicity decrease property value.
More specifically, the fear that people of color as neighbors will decrease the property value is what actually decreases the property values. When the values decrease and the whites flee, poorer people of color move in to replace them and/or the fleeing whites rent out their homes, which become more difficult to sell.

Take a look at the history of the Mount Airy neighborhood in Philadelphia for an alternative outcome.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Take a look at the history of the Mount Airy neighborhood in Philadelphia for an alternative outcome.
Mount Airy is such an exception to the rule...a beautiful neighborhood! The next one over from me.

The rest of Philly is the text book definition of "White Flight" urband ghettoization.
 

jmello

Cyburbian
Messages
2,583
Points
22
Mount Airy is such an exception to the rule...a beautiful neighborhood! The next one over from me.

The rest of Philly is the textbook definition of "[w]hite [f]light" urban ghettoization.
No one said it was extensively replicated. However, it is a great example of what else is possible when a neighborhood begins to transition from white to non-white (besides fleeing whites and tumbling property values).

Nothing is stopping this model's implementation in other transitioning areas, especially in the Sunbelt where the racial and ethnic composition of neighborhoods is still in flux.
 

Wildono

Cyburbian
Messages
92
Points
4
Perceptions are important, and criminal activity and apparent lack of maintenance and investment can work together to decrease investments of community spririt and effort. Ironically, some single professional folks who own homes are shoestrung to make mortgage payments and spread themselves thin with community involvement activities...and spend little time maintaining their homes! :-$

Why do I believe that I can somehow make arrangements with the soul food restaurant in the neighborhood to harvest the dandelion greens from my huge yard?
 

steel

Cyburbian
Messages
456
Points
14
In Chicago the opposite of white flight is occuring. Close in property is in such high demand that high end condos mansions and townhouses are being built directly adjacent to public housing projects.
 
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