Minorities and property values (was: You've got to be kidding me!)

Dan

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#21
Huston said:
I am not sure how this will come across, but -

[snip]

"You've known me for a long time, and you know that I am not a racist, but these Mexicans moving in the neighborhood are hurting my property value" - African American Homeowner.
With an influx of Hispanics, I would imagine the apprehension comes from having neighbors that you probably can't communicate with.

Outside of the Southwest, I haven't encountered any predominantly Hispanic neighborhoods where the resident population wasn't mostly Spanish speaking. When I lived in New Mexico, the Spanish-as-first -language Hispanics were barrioized, while the English-as-first-language Hispanics were well integrated.

In working and middle class income areas with recent immigrants from Mexico, there are often code enforcement problems, mostly because Mexicans aren't familiar with the concept of zoning or nuisance regulations. CE here seems to have a problem with Mexican immigrants and vehicles - cars parked on lawns, inoperable vehicles, auto repair businesses run out of houses, and so on. It sounds like a stereotype, but unfortunately it's all too true.
 

H

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#22
Planderella said:
If I recall correctly, none of the other posts specifically named white people as the "discriminators."
Oh come on Planderella, please. What has this tread been about then, apple pie?
 

H

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#23
Seriously, I did not make the post on this thread to point fingers, single anyone out, call anyone any names or upset anyone, I was just simply stating a true story about an experience that I found interesting and that was related to the topic, and that is all.

If we can’t talk about it, we can’t solve it.
 
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#25
I have seen the perception of the connection between the two. But here is it the Hispanics that have moved in from NYC. They assume that they can do what ever they did in NYC, and it would be ok here. So, there are several areas of town where people do not know English, don't keep there yards cleaned up, and do not believe that the city can tell them that they are not aloud to have chickens in the high density residential zone.

It is not because they are Hispanic, it is because they just don't understand the way the city operates. As for African Americans, there is no reason that they should have an effect on property values. If all neighbors took care of there property, then the values will stay high.
 
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#26
attitude or circumstance

Unfortunately I think the co-worker may have been making a true observation rather than simply displaying her ignorance.
The point she hit on is that in most places there is still a lot of segregation. What she may have been commenting on is the possibility that this area is an area with lower property values, a less affluent area. What she saw as the cause though, may have been the effect.
In my neighborhood,for example, property values have risen (I could no longer afford to purchase my house if I had to do it today). I've also noticed is that the neighborhood is becoming more white (the neighborhood had a better mix than most in the city all along, but is predominently latin American). Take this to mean whatever you will, but more expensive neighborhoods to the west of mine have a large majority white population--this is in a city that is probably 75% black.
We can easily write off the co-workers assertion as overt racism (and it pretty much is that), but we can't deny her observation that , in most cases, you can tell something about the state of a neighborhood by those living there.
Fortunately there are places (particularly in the south) where the trend is being bucked (affluent communities with mostly minority populations). Unfortunately, the sad fact of the matter is that in the U.S. today blacks and other minority groups are still as a whole economically less advantaged than their white counterparts.
This, topic is interesting, what I'd like to know is how people view this in relation to gentrification. I know that philosophically I have issues with gentrification. On the other hand as a home owner I have to ask myself if I would mind it so much if a Starbucks went up on the main drag in my neighborhood (especially since I fully expect not to live in my present home the rest of my life--I refer of course to resale value).
 

Planderella

     
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#27
Inverse Question - the PC Version

Why is it that when non-white minorities move into predominantly white neighborhoods, it decreases property values, but when whites move into predominantly non-white minority neighborhoods, it's call gentrification?
 
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#28
It doesn't necessarily decrease property values when non-whites move in. But when a bunch of (more affluent) white people (or maybe more affluent people of any race but it seems to be whites when I see it) start moving into a mostly minority neighborhood it's usually not because they want to be close to good ethnic food.
 

Jessie-J

     
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#29
Dan- she was moving into North County, specifically Florissant.

I have met someone who lives especially in an ethnically diverse neighborhood because of its cultural diversity.

What about stereotypes? I have heard people say that "stereotypes are there for a reason" and that certain actions perpetuate stereotypes. Our social system relies so heavily on the media....what if this stereotype is being perpetuated by the news and sitcoms rather than what is actually taking place? I know that there is alot of misrepresentation in the news and "they show us what they want us to see". I grew up in the ghetto. I NEVER encountered anything that was a result of me being in the slums. In fact, I might even prefer it a bit because I don't have to worry about all those damn restrictions that are in the newer neighborhoods. But that's a whole other issue.... I've never had anything bad happen to me in a bad neighborhood that could change my perceptions...

(sorry so rambly, in a hurry)
 

jresta

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#30
Wm.J.Lufred said:
It doesn't necessarily decrease property values when non-whites move in. But when a bunch of (more affluent) white people (or maybe more affluent people of any race but it seems to be whites when I see it) start moving into a mostly minority neighborhood it's usually not because they want to be close to good ethnic food.
I definitely think this is much more of a class issue than a race issue nowadays. I've seen minority groups move into neighborhoods (Koreans, Vietnamese, Indians) - South Philly in particular and push property values higher than than what the previous white residents could fetch.

As far as gentrification goes - I think the hype is mostly the reactionary left who have been complaining about economic segregation for decades and now that the tide is turning they're going to complain about economic desegregation.

The gentrification bugaboo in Philly right now is in University City. Property values have gone up 300% in 5 years in some cases. The neighborhood is less "white" than it was at the time of the last census. If you're a black guy who has always lived in the neighborhood and you're just getting ready to retire there's no longer any need to worry about your pension.

This is how middle class people make their money - real estate. In a city where owner occupancy is over 70% there's nothing wrong with people of any color cashing in on their investment. The problem is when (and only when) renters and first time buyers alike run out of housing options. This goes with or without urban gentrification and cities should be doing something to make sure that it's not an issue in the future.

I think this country has been moving in a european direction for the last 20 years. One where the poor are sandwiched in a ring between the wealthy in the city center and the middle class in the sprawling suburbs. I just think that people are noticing now because it accelerated rapidly in the late 90's and continues today with people shifting their investments from stocks to real estate.
 
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#31
jresta said:
I think this country has been moving in a european direction for the last 20 years. One where the poor are sandwiched in a ring between the wealthy in the city center and the middle class in the sprawling suburbs. I just think that people are noticing now because it accelerated rapidly in the late 90's and continues today with people shifting their investments from stocks to real estate.
Bingo. I could not agree more.

The new housing market in the Loop and surrounding neighborhoods has hardly slowed, and those homes are not built for the middle class. The poor are being pushed to inner-ring suburbs, and the middle class is blazing the sprawl trail.
 

BKM

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#32
Is this the Patio Man syndrom posted a few months ago?

The family-oriented, not necessarily "sophisticated" middle class moving to the Riverside Counties, the Dupage counties, etc.

The posher inner city neighbrohoods and old money suburbs (Lincoln Park, Santa Monica, Bethesda, Maryland) being inhabited by more bohemian, often but not always more affluent families and young.

The poor get stuck with Hamtranck (sp), Harvey, San Leandro (although with Cali real estate prices, that is even questionable), etc.
 

Tom R

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#33
room

I've got news for some of you people, I'm house hunting right now and may be coming to your neighborhood very soon. [/B][/QUOTE]

I've got a spare bedroom!
 
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#34
BKM said:

The posher inner city neighbrohoods and old money suburbs (Lincoln Park, Santa Monica, Bethesda, Maryland) being inhabited by more bohemian, often but not always more affluent families and young
Don't forget, the bohemians pave the way for the transition of a city neighborhood from downtrodden to posh (see Wicker Park, Greenwich Village, around UPenn's campus, etc.)
 
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#35
If all neighbors took care of there property, then the values will stay high.
Exactly!! In my neighborhood there has been a lot of spanish people moving in. The property value is going nowhere near down. I'm unapologetically a cop about the homeowners association rules, so we can keep our neighborhood looking good. We have a lot of work to do and it's going to get done.

Now, can anyone tell where there are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods? and Hispanic neighborhoods?
 

H

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#36
The Irish one said:


Now, can anyone tell where there are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods? and Hispanic neighborhoods?

Exclusively upper class black neighborhoods = I believe certain neighborhoods on the south side of Atlanta are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods, in fact I recently saw a segment interviewing residents on 20/20 (or one of its competitors).
 

jresta

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#37
I always forget the name of the town but it's along one of the rail lines in north jersey not too far from Montclair and has been a mostly black UPPER class neighborhood for several decades.

"Bergenline" or Bergenline Ave. runs through a few towns in NJ directly across the Hudson from Manhattan. It's upper-middle class Cubans mostly with a fair amount of Puerto Ricans. But then again, the boat lift aside, most Cubans coming to the US came from this background.
 
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#38
The Irish one said:
Now, can anyone tell where there are exclusively upper class black neighborhoods? and Hispanic neighborhoods?
In the Chicago area, there are several upper-middle class and upper class black neighborhoods in the city and suburbs.

In Chicago (South Side, near the lake):
- Pill Hill -- home to many doctors, lawyers and businesspeople
- Avalon Park -- home to many high-ranking public administrators (principals, city officials, etc.)
- Jackson Highlands -- same as above; also home to Jesse Jackson

The above have been upper-middle class havens for blacks for at least 40 years.

In the suburbs (all south suburbs):
- Olympia Fields -- home of this week's U.S. Open
- Country Club Hills
- Flossmoor
- Glenwood
- Lynwood

Except for Olympia Fields, these places may be losing some of their "exclusivity" but they are nonetheless fairly high-income places.

These are all areas that, in the 2000 Census, were at least 50% African-American in population, and had median household incomes exceeding $100,000.
 
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#39
Here is a very good example. In central Prince Georges County Maryland outside of Washington D.C. in the Lake Arbor, Woodmore, Kettering areas, these areas are predominately highly educated african americans living in gated communities with homes ranging from $350,000 to well over $100,000,000. But the upscale homes of white neighboring Howard, Montgomery and Fairfax Counties are much more expensive. They also have much better retail. Saks, Neimans, Nordstrom, Macy's and so on. No such retail at the african american Landover Mall in Prince Georges County. Now the 1.2 million square foot mall was forced to close for good in 2002. Everyone likes to eat out. I guess the Woodmore/Kettering black folks don't. No nice restaurants either. No matter if your from the Ciprini Green projects of Chicago or the gated communities of Woodmore blacks are treated the same.
 

Planderella

     
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#40
Mod Note: Since this thread has apparently drifted off topic, I've split it and moved it to the appropriate forum.
 
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