-
Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no echo chambers. Create your FREE Cyburbia ID, and join us today! You can also register through your Reddit, Facebook, Google, Twitter, or Microsoft account.
NATO : Whatcha thinkin' ?
- Thread starter Chet
- Start date
What's with Germany?? After WWII you practically said that you didn't want them in ANY armed conflict, now you want them to join you in DSII (Desert Storm 2)? I know... that's not hypocresy, It's Politics.. 
If you guys are pissed with Irak, go alone, and suffer the consequences of fighting your war; You want it to be a World War? I guess you don't mind the fact that poor countries like mine have to suffer quite a lot when there is war. SPECIALLY BECAUSE OF OIL! Gas here is more or less 5 times more expensive than the US and the paychecks are an average of 5 times smaller (or more)
You have a per capita purchase parity of like US$33,000, here... on the 5,000 level....just a "little" difference....
Sorry for being a little rude, but it's good for you guys to get another POV....
If you guys are pissed with Irak, go alone, and suffer the consequences of fighting your war; You want it to be a World War? I guess you don't mind the fact that poor countries like mine have to suffer quite a lot when there is war. SPECIALLY BECAUSE OF OIL! Gas here is more or less 5 times more expensive than the US and the paychecks are an average of 5 times smaller (or more)
You have a per capita purchase parity of like US$33,000, here... on the 5,000 level....just a "little" difference....
Sorry for being a little rude, but it's good for you guys to get another POV....
Jeff
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 4,161
- Points
- 27
Why are the French such pu*****s? They run from every little sign of conflict. They are so weak, and everyone knows, these terror cells will probably hit them since they are such an easy target.
And then we'll have to bail them out as usual. Why don't they just join the US?
And then we'll have to bail them out as usual. Why don't they just join the US?
- Messages
- 18,122
- Points
- 63
They're the equivalent of the delicate, sensitive, snooty artsy kid (who doesn't bathe) that always gets beat up on the school yard. After a while, you learn to avoid fistfights; you can't win. However, you certainly don't keep your opinions to yourself ... especially about how the other kids are brutes, and that you're both morally and culturally superior to the masses.Mike DeVuono said:
el Guapo
Capitalist
- Messages
- 5,984
- Points
- 29
1. The plan has always been to go alone. Everyone but the Brits will be there for show and tell and photo ops. The US and the UK will do the shooting and dieing on the allied side.SkeLeton said:
2. If it turns in to a wide spread conflict, so be it. We are doing the heavy lifting of democracy. What are you doing? Is Chile sending anybody to the fight. Are you personally coming to help? It is so easy to hide behind Ghandi's skirt. It takes zero courage to denounce violence without any personal risk.
If it turns into a world war I hope to become the US Occupation Governor of Chile due to my political connections. We'll talk then, you and I, in great detail.
3. The price of oil is almost the same for everyone everywhere if the rule of law is present. The only additional variable charges are a small percent for differing costs of transportation. You pay what you pay because your government wants it that way. Your Taxes are not my problem. Too damn bad for you. Suck it up and walk.
4. The fact that your paycheck sucks has ZERO to do with US foreign policy. Quit bitching - you have a freely elected government and the ability to control your own economic destiny. Because we have more makes me feel ZERO guilt. Someone somewhere always makes more. I'm not bitching about the Swiss, those rich bastards! Ok, maybe just a little.
4. Sorry to be rude, but you needed another POV also. You're going to find the world is full of bullies. Every now and then one needs to get his ass kicked as a object lesson to other potential bullies. This is the way of things
Violence - The great solver of problems.
Tranplanner
maudit anglais
- Messages
- 7,903
- Points
- 35
Um...the Canadians and Australians should be there too, even if our contributions aren't much in the scheme of things. Rumour is we'll be sending a major contingent back to Afganistan soon too, to pick up some of the slack there. And a Canadian is now head of the Naval Task Force in the Persian Gulf.El Guapo said:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1&tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=naval&option=&start_row=1&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1&query=naval
Tranplanner
maudit anglais
- Messages
- 7,903
- Points
- 35
That's okay EG - I know you hold us Canucks in high regard. And I know you secretly want some o' that free health care!
Runner
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 566
- Points
- 17
Alas, NATO has turned into just another debating forum like the UN. NATO is just another cold war relic that took a little longer to die than the Warsaw Pact.
From what I understand it has gotten to the point that the USA and the Queens subjects (that should include all our best and most capable friends) are so far ahead military technology wise that we could not fight on the same battlefield without the lesser NATO forces just getting in the way. Hence our requests have been for rear echelon pogues such as logistical, NBC decon, and medical assistance. We certainly don't need the Vichy French leading any military charges... Is it true that Saddam has plans to occupy Paris?
From what I understand it has gotten to the point that the USA and the Queens subjects (that should include all our best and most capable friends) are so far ahead military technology wise that we could not fight on the same battlefield without the lesser NATO forces just getting in the way. Hence our requests have been for rear echelon pogues such as logistical, NBC decon, and medical assistance. We certainly don't need the Vichy French leading any military charges... Is it true that Saddam has plans to occupy Paris?
Wannaplan?
Galactic Superstar
- Messages
- 3,162
- Points
- 28
Please do share your opinions. An American with a dissenting voice can easily be dismissed here, whether warranted or not, as unpatriotic. However, an international Cyburbanite offers a valuable perspective that cannot be dismissed so easily. I appreciate your perspective and I am sure there are others. Please don't be scared away by those who prefer to be overly-combative. Americans are not all like that.SkeLeton said:
Jeff
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 4,161
- Points
- 27
I read a great column in the paper yesterday, I widsh I had saved this one quote but I didn't.
It went something like.....When I walked on the beach of Normandy last week seeing where 10,000 of our soldiers bled and died to save the French, I wonder how in the hell they could ever be against us.....
It went something like.....When I walked on the beach of Normandy last week seeing where 10,000 of our soldiers bled and died to save the French, I wonder how in the hell they could ever be against us.....
el Guapo
Capitalist
- Messages
- 5,984
- Points
- 29
Geradeaus!
Maybe, and I'm just saying maybe. Maybe the French are due for some "occupation" time again. Maybe, the next time we don't bail them out for a decade or two, or maybe never. I'd bet that given the right signals, and April Gillespe as the US Ambasasdor to Germany, France could be the newest edition to the "Liebensraum, für Deutschland auszubreiten."
Dude, your getting a green light!
Maybe, and I'm just saying maybe. Maybe the French are due for some "occupation" time again. Maybe, the next time we don't bail them out for a decade or two, or maybe never. I'd bet that given the right signals, and April Gillespe as the US Ambasasdor to Germany, France could be the newest edition to the "Liebensraum, für Deutschland auszubreiten."
Dude, your getting a green light!
Am I wrong or is half of our dilema dealing with the inaction of the Clinton Administration? Skeleton has a point in that we didn’t do much of anything in 1993 after the first WTC bombing. If those bombs were a little more successful, what happened in 2001 could have happened then. To the rest of the world, we look like we’re picking on Iraq all of a sudden, but if we didn’t allow him to make a mockery of the UN inspections for 10 years this wouldn’t be the case. The same seems to be true in N. Korea where all of a sudden we’re in quite a situation. Unfortunately we all know where Clinton’s priorities were in the oval office [wink]. If he kept the intelligence community well funded we might not have been so clueless about Al Qaida.
As for the issue of violence, Iraq, N. Korea and Al Qaida are ridiculously violent and oppresive, and threaten much of the world with weapons of mass destruction. War isn’t “the answer” but what do you do when a country violates the UN and keeps on creating weapons of mass destruction. Further economic sanctions in Iraq may actually hurt the average person more than war which is at least focused on toppling the regime. Iraq’s government probably cares less about the welfare of their own citizens then we do. Afghanistan is far from “cured” but military action is what liberated the citizenry from one of the world’s most oppressive regimes, and destroyed the training grounds for global terrorism. Dialogue with the Taliban just didn’t work.
Are the French and Germans really blocking entry into the EU by the Eastern European nations that support the US position? I think the French and Germans can have their own opinions even if they are frustrating, but who do they think they are doing this? This is just what we need - the Germans vs. everyone else for the 3rd time!
As for the issue of violence, Iraq, N. Korea and Al Qaida are ridiculously violent and oppresive, and threaten much of the world with weapons of mass destruction. War isn’t “the answer” but what do you do when a country violates the UN and keeps on creating weapons of mass destruction. Further economic sanctions in Iraq may actually hurt the average person more than war which is at least focused on toppling the regime. Iraq’s government probably cares less about the welfare of their own citizens then we do. Afghanistan is far from “cured” but military action is what liberated the citizenry from one of the world’s most oppressive regimes, and destroyed the training grounds for global terrorism. Dialogue with the Taliban just didn’t work.
Are the French and Germans really blocking entry into the EU by the Eastern European nations that support the US position? I think the French and Germans can have their own opinions even if they are frustrating, but who do they think they are doing this? This is just what we need - the Germans vs. everyone else for the 3rd time!
I'll remind you guys one more time.... After WWII You practically said to Germany that you didn't want them in ANY armed conflict... Now don't say that they're "not supportive" if you actually said to them more than 50 years ago that you didn't want them in ANY conflict. If the US Army wants war, Ok; go ahead. If you want the UN to aprove, present good evidence, not just blurry sattelite images. Yes, I don't have a doubt that Iraq has WMD, find them and I'll give you my support; To topple Saddam and put a democratic government. Let's hope it turns better than Afghanistan, where the process started is actually going backwards... They're turning back towards the Taliban, You've left them alone and they'll go back to what they where before, but only more angry and more extremist. Don't let this happen in Afghanistan nor Irak (or any place in the world)
Protecting Democracy isn't easy, and it's not only the job of the US to do it, It's the job for every democratic country.
Protecting Democracy isn't easy, and it's not only the job of the US to do it, It's the job for every democratic country.
Tranplanner
maudit anglais
- Messages
- 7,903
- Points
- 35
Skeleton - you're way off base with the Germany comparison. Germany was de-miliarized for about 10 years after WWII, at which point it was invited to join NATO and became the main bulwark of defense against possible Warsaw Pact aggression in Europe. NATO defence plans for most of the cold war relied on a strong German military.
The German constitution limited (if not prohibited) military deployment outside German borders. In the late 1990s, this was amended to allow German participation in the Kosovo conflict. Since that time German troops have also participated in UN peacekeeping missions most notably in Afganistan - something they did not do during the whole of the cold war.
I don't think the U.S. particularly cares if French or German or Belgian forces participate in any attack on Iraq, but it might have been nice if they hadn't raised such a stink over plans to protect a NATO member (Turkey) in the event of Iraqi retalitory attacks.
It's one thing to oppose unilateral military action, quite another to dis an ally who may suffer the consequences of that action.
The German constitution limited (if not prohibited) military deployment outside German borders. In the late 1990s, this was amended to allow German participation in the Kosovo conflict. Since that time German troops have also participated in UN peacekeeping missions most notably in Afganistan - something they did not do during the whole of the cold war.
I don't think the U.S. particularly cares if French or German or Belgian forces participate in any attack on Iraq, but it might have been nice if they hadn't raised such a stink over plans to protect a NATO member (Turkey) in the event of Iraqi retalitory attacks.
It's one thing to oppose unilateral military action, quite another to dis an ally who may suffer the consequences of that action.
el Guapo
Capitalist
- Messages
- 5,984
- Points
- 29
I love you TP. Thanks.
Skel - We asked them to help if the Russiams decided to move west. That was in their own interest. I think the FRG was demilled to remove a particularly troublesome generation of soldiers that may have learned some bad habits in the prior war.
We have now had two generations of happy and less aggressive Germans civilians who think that the world is basically a safe place. They are wrong.
France is just being France.
For the record what is Chile doing to help?
Skel - We asked them to help if the Russiams decided to move west. That was in their own interest. I think the FRG was demilled to remove a particularly troublesome generation of soldiers that may have learned some bad habits in the prior war.
We have now had two generations of happy and less aggressive Germans civilians who think that the world is basically a safe place. They are wrong.
France is just being France.
For the record what is Chile doing to help?
Tha's the problem with the opposition in this debate, you cannot in one breath say you have no doubt Saddam has WMD, then in the next say you need more evidence or more inspectors.
The UN resolution said its Irq's job to show us the weapons.
Charles Krauthammer recently put it best:
After the war is over, there will be plenty of :
"Retroactive Evidence."
The UN resolution said its Irq's job to show us the weapons.
Charles Krauthammer recently put it best:
After the war is over, there will be plenty of :
"Retroactive Evidence."
el Guapo
Capitalist
- Messages
- 5,984
- Points
- 29
NEWS FLASH
In a stunning reversal of policy, French President Jacques Chirac announced today that the French government will be supporting the War on Terror after all. Five hundred soldiers from the elite L'Abandonnement du Field d'Honneur Battalion (French Surrender Battalion) of the Legion Etrangere (Foreign Legion) are in the process of shipping out to Iraq where they will assist the elite Iraqi Republican Guards in their inevitable surrender to the overwhelming might of the American Armed Forces.
"Eet ees important to be haughty and insufferable when surrendering," said General Philippe de Peepee, the Commanding Officer of the Surrender Battalion, who has personally surrendered in over 200 battles going back to Dien Bien Phu in 1954. "We French are ze world masters at Surrendering, n'est ce pas, not like you arrogant Americans who never surrender. Ha, I spit on your filthy American victories."
President Chirac also announced that his government will be sending 3000 advisors from the elite Force du Collaborateur Francaise (French Collaboration Force) to assist the Iraqis in collaborating with the Americans while pretending to be part of a non-existent resistance movement.
In a stunning reversal of policy, French President Jacques Chirac announced today that the French government will be supporting the War on Terror after all. Five hundred soldiers from the elite L'Abandonnement du Field d'Honneur Battalion (French Surrender Battalion) of the Legion Etrangere (Foreign Legion) are in the process of shipping out to Iraq where they will assist the elite Iraqi Republican Guards in their inevitable surrender to the overwhelming might of the American Armed Forces.
"Eet ees important to be haughty and insufferable when surrendering," said General Philippe de Peepee, the Commanding Officer of the Surrender Battalion, who has personally surrendered in over 200 battles going back to Dien Bien Phu in 1954. "We French are ze world masters at Surrendering, n'est ce pas, not like you arrogant Americans who never surrender. Ha, I spit on your filthy American victories."
President Chirac also announced that his government will be sending 3000 advisors from the elite Force du Collaborateur Francaise (French Collaboration Force) to assist the Iraqis in collaborating with the Americans while pretending to be part of a non-existent resistance movement.
I just thought I should point out that the German military is quite good. They are very modern and are one of the only country's whose military could actually help in Iraq. Britain and Germany are the best of the rest of military powers in the world, underneath the US of course. Canada, although a strong ally, has kinda been dismantling its military since desert storm 1. France is utterly useless. Enjoy.
Chet
Cyburbian Emeritus
- Messages
- 10,624
- Points
- 34
From MSNBC:El Guapo said:
Chile is now seated on the UN Security Council (it holds a position that rotates through membership). Supports continued inspections and has not taken a position regarding military action.
C'Mon folks, this is not a waffle-able issue!
seannelson
Member
- Messages
- 39
- Points
- 2
good stuff
"Eet ees important to be haughty and insufferable when surrendering," said General Philippe de Peepee, the Commanding Officer of the Surrender Battalion, who has personally surrendered in over 200 battles going back to Dien Bien Phu in 1954. "We French are ze world masters at Surrendering, n'est ce pas, not like you arrogant Americans who never surrender. Ha, I spit on your filthy American victories."
El Guapo, I hope you don't mind, but I had to send this to my brother in law. We were discussing this last weekend, and this pretty much sums up our discussion.
"Eet ees important to be haughty and insufferable when surrendering," said General Philippe de Peepee, the Commanding Officer of the Surrender Battalion, who has personally surrendered in over 200 battles going back to Dien Bien Phu in 1954. "We French are ze world masters at Surrendering, n'est ce pas, not like you arrogant Americans who never surrender. Ha, I spit on your filthy American victories."
El Guapo, I hope you don't mind, but I had to send this to my brother in law. We were discussing this last weekend, and this pretty much sums up our discussion.
Bullwinkle
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 176
- Points
- 7
Here's Groundskeeper Willy's take on the military prowess of the French:
Wannaplan?
Galactic Superstar
- Messages
- 3,162
- Points
- 28
Paul Kugman from the New York Times:Mike DeVuono said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/18/opinion/18KRUG.html
Behind the Great Divide
"There has been much speculation why Europe and the U.S. are suddenly at such odds. Is it about culture? About history? But I haven't seen much discussion of an obvious point: We have different views partly because we see different news.
Let's back up. Many Americans now blame France for the chill in U.S.-European relations. There is even talk of boycotting French products.
But France's attitude isn't exceptional. Last Saturday's huge demonstrations confirmed polls that show deep distrust of the Bush administration and skepticism about an Iraq war in all major European nations, whatever position their governments may take. In fact, the biggest demonstrations were in countries whose governments are supporting the Bush administration.
There were big demonstrations in America too. But distrust of the U.S. overseas has reached such a level, even among our British allies, that a recent British poll ranked the U.S. as the world's most dangerous nation — ahead of North Korea and Iraq.
So why don't other countries see the world the way we do? News coverage is a large part of the answer..."
fries
I saw on the news this morning that a Topeka restaurant was now serving "Freedom fries" instead of french fries. . .they even come with a little American flag.
Sad news: My husband has received his invitation to the big dance and will probably be leaving very soon.
I saw on the news this morning that a Topeka restaurant was now serving "Freedom fries" instead of french fries. . .they even come with a little American flag.
Sad news: My husband has received his invitation to the big dance and will probably be leaving very soon.
Jacque Chirac has said that the E. European countries “missed an opportunity to keep quiet.” by supporting the US position on Iraq, and that they should think about the consequences as they try to gain entry to the EU.Seabishop said:
Quite fascist sounding for such a politically correct government. Apparently after years behind the iron curtain these countries now need France to make up their mind for them. Why does France think they have more of a say then other EU countries like Italy and Spain who support the US position?
Cardinal
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 10,080
- Points
- 34
This from a guy who lives in a state that considers Velveeta a cheese...BKM said:Given my experience over the past year with French wine, I'm not sure that would be a sacrifice.
Cheese, though, that's another story
I will point out that the best cheeses in the world come from Wisconsin. They pair very well with a California wine.
The Irish One
Member
- Messages
- 2,267
- Points
- 25
California wine is second to none. Champibbly I don't know about.
Hijack! Cheese Wars!
Any place like California that has a huge yuppie population and is food obsessed will have good cheese. California is really big now in "artisinal cheeses" made by individual womyn goatherders on organic, flower-bedecked hillsides. There are some great producers out here. Even the countryside says "cheese." During the spring/winter you would almost swear you are in Ireland or Switzerland.
Wisconsin? Pah. Processed blocks of cheddar or mozarella from factory farms made by cows shivering in your sub-zero winters.
End Hijack!
Any place like California that has a huge yuppie population and is food obsessed will have good cheese. California is really big now in "artisinal cheeses" made by individual womyn goatherders on organic, flower-bedecked hillsides. There are some great producers out here. Even the countryside says "cheese." During the spring/winter you would almost swear you are in Ireland or Switzerland.
Wisconsin? Pah. Processed blocks of cheddar or mozarella from factory farms made by cows shivering in your sub-zero winters.
End Hijack!
Runner
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 566
- Points
- 17
There seems to be plenty of fine wine available in the western hemisphere. Add to that Australia and even Spain (coincidentally enough, both part of the coalition of the willing) and I just don't see any need to spend our money on French wine.BKM said:
As a matter of fact, if a ship arrives in Boston with French wine on board I'm all for boarding the ship and dumping their wine in Boston Harbor
A party anyone?
Cardinal
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 10,080
- Points
- 34
Runner, let's make it a drinking party. So what about Germany? The only great reislings (excepting a few from Austria) are from the Model-Saar-Ruhr region. Of course, Germany sided with the rest of NATO now on the Turkey issue. Reisling is an outstanding choice of wines to serve with turkey. Did anyone catch the news story about some PETA folks complaining that the turkeys pardoned by the president at Thanksgiving are being deprived of their rights by being kept in a pen (or something silly like that). What are these people smoking. Ever have smoked turkey? Mmmm, good.
So what about Germany? The only great reislings (excepting a few from Austria) are from the Model-Saar-Ruhr region. Of course, Germany sided with the rest of NATO now on the Turkey issue. Reisling is an outstanding choice of wines to serve with turkey. Did anyone catch the news story about some PETA folks complaining that the turkeys pardoned by the president at Thanksgiving are being deprived of their rights by being kept in a pen (or something silly like that). What are these people smoking. Ever have smoked turkey? Mmmm, good.
Runner
Cyburbian
- Messages
- 566
- Points
- 17
Just to stir the pot we need to tell them the pen is located in Guantanamo Bay. That ought to push them over the edgeMichael Stumpf said:
As for German wines, Mrs. Runner and I stick almost exclusively with red wines so the Germans can keep their Rieslings. But I'm a go for the party. We can drink products from the "coalition of the willing" while pouring the rest into the harbor. AND as my bladder fills I can think of a chaser to follow the French wine over the railing and into the sea