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NATO : Whatcha thinkin' ?

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Why are we wasting time getting NATO support when we can't get UN Support.

After all, I hear that going to war without the French is like going hunting without your accordian.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
I know of a French and a German embasy that are going to suffer "collateral" damage in a few weeks. Whoops
:)
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
What's with Germany?? After WWII you practically said that you didn't want them in ANY armed conflict, now you want them to join you in DSII (Desert Storm 2)? I know... that's not hypocresy, It's Politics.. :p
If you guys are pissed with Irak, go alone, and suffer the consequences of fighting your war; You want it to be a World War? I guess you don't mind the fact that poor countries like mine have to suffer quite a lot when there is war. SPECIALLY BECAUSE OF OIL! Gas here is more or less 5 times more expensive than the US and the paychecks are an average of 5 times smaller (or more)
You have a per capita purchase parity of like US$33,000, here... on the 5,000 level....just a "little" difference....

Sorry for being a little rude, but it's good for you guys to get another POV....
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
I'll worry about gas prices when it's more expensive per gallon than Snapple. In the mean time, Imperialistic foreign policy is more important.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Why are the French such pu*****s? They run from every little sign of conflict. They are so weak, and everyone knows, these terror cells will probably hit them since they are such an easy target.

And then we'll have to bail them out as usual. Why don't they just join the US?
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
17,847
Points
59
Mike DeVuono said:
Why are the French such pu*****s? They run from every little sign of conflict.
They're the equivalent of the delicate, sensitive, snooty artsy kid (who doesn't bathe) that always gets beat up on the school yard. After a while, you learn to avoid fistfights; you can't win. However, you certainly don't keep your opinions to yourself ... especially about how the other kids are brutes, and that you're both morally and culturally superior to the masses.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
SkeLeton said:
If you guys are pissed with Irak, go alone, and suffer the consequences of fighting your war; You want it to be a World War? I guess you don't mind the fact that poor countries like mine have to suffer quite a lot when there is war. SPECIALLY BECAUSE OF OIL! Gas here is more or less 5 times more expensive than the US and the paychecks are an average of 5 times smaller (or more)
You have a per capita purchase parity of like US$33,000, here... on the 5,000 level....just a "little" difference....

Sorry for being a little rude, but it's good for you guys to get another POV....
1. The plan has always been to go alone. Everyone but the Brits will be there for show and tell and photo ops. The US and the UK will do the shooting and dieing on the allied side.

2. If it turns in to a wide spread conflict, so be it. We are doing the heavy lifting of democracy. What are you doing? Is Chile sending anybody to the fight. Are you personally coming to help? It is so easy to hide behind Ghandi's skirt. It takes zero courage to denounce violence without any personal risk.

If it turns into a world war I hope to become the US Occupation Governor of Chile due to my political connections. We'll talk then, you and I, in great detail. ;)

3. The price of oil is almost the same for everyone everywhere if the rule of law is present. The only additional variable charges are a small percent for differing costs of transportation. You pay what you pay because your government wants it that way. Your Taxes are not my problem. Too damn bad for you. Suck it up and walk.

4. The fact that your paycheck sucks has ZERO to do with US foreign policy. Quit bitching - you have a freely elected government and the ability to control your own economic destiny. Because we have more makes me feel ZERO guilt. Someone somewhere always makes more. I'm not bitching about the Swiss, those rich bastards! Ok, maybe just a little.

4. Sorry to be rude, but you needed another POV also. You're going to find the world is full of bullies. Every now and then one needs to get his ass kicked as a object lesson to other potential bullies. This is the way of things

Violence - The great solver of problems.

:)
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
El Guapo said:


1. The plan has always been to go alone. Everyone but the Brits will be there for show and tell and photo ops. The US and the UK will do the shooting and dieing on the allied side.
Um...the Canadians and Australians should be there too, even if our contributions aren't much in the scheme of things. Rumour is we'll be sending a major contingent back to Afganistan soon too, to pick up some of the slack there. And a Canadian is now head of the Naval Task Force in the Persian Gulf.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1&tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=naval&option=&start_row=1&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1&query=naval
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Whoops!

Yes, I knew that. I just forgot to post it. So sorry. I really do hold Canada and Austrailia in high regard as allies in this fight. Once again, sorry.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
That's okay EG - I know you hold us Canucks in high regard. And I know you secretly want some o' that free health care!
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
"I can't wait for free health care" - Wait that could be misinterpreted as I might die waiting for free health care. ;)
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
Violence - The great solver of problems.
I differ... It's more like: Violence - The easiest way to resolve problems...

From now on I think I'll keep my opinions about certain things for myself...
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
Alas, NATO has turned into just another debating forum like the UN. NATO is just another cold war relic that took a little longer to die than the Warsaw Pact.

From what I understand it has gotten to the point that the USA and the Queens subjects (that should include all our best and most capable friends) are so far ahead military technology wise that we could not fight on the same battlefield without the lesser NATO forces just getting in the way. Hence our requests have been for rear echelon pogues such as logistical, NBC decon, and medical assistance. We certainly don't need the Vichy French leading any military charges... Is it true that Saddam has plans to occupy Paris?
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
SkeLeton said:
From now on I think I'll keep my opinions about certain things for myself...
Stay in the debate, but know that you're talking about serious subjects with people that have passion about subjects you only seem to have academic experience with. Some of us have burried friends who fought for our nation.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,150
Points
28
SkeLeton said:

I differ... It's more like: Violence - The easiest way to resolve problems...

From now on I think I'll keep my opinions about certain things for myself...
Please do share your opinions. An American with a dissenting voice can easily be dismissed here, whether warranted or not, as unpatriotic. However, an international Cyburbanite offers a valuable perspective that cannot be dismissed so easily. I appreciate your perspective and I am sure there are others. Please don't be scared away by those who prefer to be overly-combative. Americans are not all like that.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
I read a great column in the paper yesterday, I widsh I had saved this one quote but I didn't.

It went something like.....When I walked on the beach of Normandy last week seeing where 10,000 of our soldiers bled and died to save the French, I wonder how in the hell they could ever be against us.....
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Geradeaus!

Maybe, and I'm just saying maybe. Maybe the French are due for some "occupation" time again. Maybe, the next time we don't bail them out for a decade or two, or maybe never. I'd bet that given the right signals, and April Gillespe as the US Ambasasdor to Germany, France could be the newest edition to the "Liebensraum, für Deutschland auszubreiten."

Dude, your getting a green light!
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
Am I wrong or is half of our dilema dealing with the inaction of the Clinton Administration? Skeleton has a point in that we didn’t do much of anything in 1993 after the first WTC bombing. If those bombs were a little more successful, what happened in 2001 could have happened then. To the rest of the world, we look like we’re picking on Iraq all of a sudden, but if we didn’t allow him to make a mockery of the UN inspections for 10 years this wouldn’t be the case. The same seems to be true in N. Korea where all of a sudden we’re in quite a situation. Unfortunately we all know where Clinton’s priorities were in the oval office [wink]. If he kept the intelligence community well funded we might not have been so clueless about Al Qaida.

As for the issue of violence, Iraq, N. Korea and Al Qaida are ridiculously violent and oppresive, and threaten much of the world with weapons of mass destruction. War isn’t “the answer” but what do you do when a country violates the UN and keeps on creating weapons of mass destruction. Further economic sanctions in Iraq may actually hurt the average person more than war which is at least focused on toppling the regime. Iraq’s government probably cares less about the welfare of their own citizens then we do. Afghanistan is far from “cured” but military action is what liberated the citizenry from one of the world’s most oppressive regimes, and destroyed the training grounds for global terrorism. Dialogue with the Taliban just didn’t work.

Are the French and Germans really blocking entry into the EU by the Eastern European nations that support the US position? I think the French and Germans can have their own opinions even if they are frustrating, but who do they think they are doing this? This is just what we need - the Germans vs. everyone else for the 3rd time!
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
I'll remind you guys one more time.... After WWII You practically said to Germany that you didn't want them in ANY armed conflict... Now don't say that they're "not supportive" if you actually said to them more than 50 years ago that you didn't want them in ANY conflict. If the US Army wants war, Ok; go ahead. If you want the UN to aprove, present good evidence, not just blurry sattelite images. Yes, I don't have a doubt that Iraq has WMD, find them and I'll give you my support; To topple Saddam and put a democratic government. Let's hope it turns better than Afghanistan, where the process started is actually going backwards... They're turning back towards the Taliban, You've left them alone and they'll go back to what they where before, but only more angry and more extremist. Don't let this happen in Afghanistan nor Irak (or any place in the world)
Protecting Democracy isn't easy, and it's not only the job of the US to do it, It's the job for every democratic country.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
SkeLeton said:
I'll remind you guys one more time.... After WWII You practically said to Germany that you didn't want them in ANY armed conflict... Now don't say that they're "not supportive" if you actually said to them more than 50 years ago that you didn't want them in ANY conflict.
Yeah, but times change. One thing that doesn't change -- DO IT OUR WAY!

The Germans also forget that without the Marshall Plan, they'd still be a second world country recvering from decades of squallor.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
Skeleton - you're way off base with the Germany comparison. Germany was de-miliarized for about 10 years after WWII, at which point it was invited to join NATO and became the main bulwark of defense against possible Warsaw Pact aggression in Europe. NATO defence plans for most of the cold war relied on a strong German military.

The German constitution limited (if not prohibited) military deployment outside German borders. In the late 1990s, this was amended to allow German participation in the Kosovo conflict. Since that time German troops have also participated in UN peacekeeping missions most notably in Afganistan - something they did not do during the whole of the cold war.

I don't think the U.S. particularly cares if French or German or Belgian forces participate in any attack on Iraq, but it might have been nice if they hadn't raised such a stink over plans to protect a NATO member (Turkey) in the event of Iraqi retalitory attacks.

It's one thing to oppose unilateral military action, quite another to dis an ally who may suffer the consequences of that action.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
I love you TP. Thanks.

Skel - We asked them to help if the Russiams decided to move west. That was in their own interest. I think the FRG was demilled to remove a particularly troublesome generation of soldiers that may have learned some bad habits in the prior war. ;)

We have now had two generations of happy and less aggressive Germans civilians who think that the world is basically a safe place. They are wrong.

France is just being France.


For the record what is Chile doing to help?
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
Tha's the problem with the opposition in this debate, you cannot in one breath say you have no doubt Saddam has WMD, then in the next say you need more evidence or more inspectors.


The UN resolution said its Irq's job to show us the weapons.

Charles Krauthammer recently put it best:

After the war is over, there will be plenty of :

"Retroactive Evidence."
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
NEWS FLASH

In a stunning reversal of policy, French President Jacques Chirac announced today that the French government will be supporting the War on Terror after all. Five hundred soldiers from the elite L'Abandonnement du Field d'Honneur Battalion (French Surrender Battalion) of the Legion Etrangere (Foreign Legion) are in the process of shipping out to Iraq where they will assist the elite Iraqi Republican Guards in their inevitable surrender to the overwhelming might of the American Armed Forces.

"Eet ees important to be haughty and insufferable when surrendering," said General Philippe de Peepee, the Commanding Officer of the Surrender Battalion, who has personally surrendered in over 200 battles going back to Dien Bien Phu in 1954. "We French are ze world masters at Surrendering, n'est ce pas, not like you arrogant Americans who never surrender. Ha, I spit on your filthy American victories."

President Chirac also announced that his government will be sending 3000 advisors from the elite Force du Collaborateur Francaise (French Collaboration Force) to assist the Iraqis in collaborating with the Americans while pretending to be part of a non-existent resistance movement.
 
Messages
54
Points
4
I just thought I should point out that the German military is quite good. They are very modern and are one of the only country's whose military could actually help in Iraq. Britain and Germany are the best of the rest of military powers in the world, underneath the US of course. Canada, although a strong ally, has kinda been dismantling its military since desert storm 1. France is utterly useless. Enjoy.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
El Guapo said:
For the record what is Chile doing to help?
From MSNBC:

Chile is now seated on the UN Security Council (it holds a position that rotates through membership). Supports continued inspections and has not taken a position regarding military action.

C'Mon folks, this is not a waffle-able issue!
 

seannelson

Member
Messages
39
Points
2
good stuff

"Eet ees important to be haughty and insufferable when surrendering," said General Philippe de Peepee, the Commanding Officer of the Surrender Battalion, who has personally surrendered in over 200 battles going back to Dien Bien Phu in 1954. "We French are ze world masters at Surrendering, n'est ce pas, not like you arrogant Americans who never surrender. Ha, I spit on your filthy American victories."

El Guapo, I hope you don't mind, but I had to send this to my brother in law. We were discussing this last weekend, and this pretty much sums up our discussion.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
A PA State Senator is looking to ban all French Wines and liquor from our state-owned liquor stores.

PA is one of the biggest importers of French wines. Finally someone is trying t stick it to these snotty little pricks.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,150
Points
28
Mike DeVuono said:
A PA State Senator is looking to ban all French Wines and liquor from our state-owned liquor stores.

PA is one of the biggest importers of French wines. Finally someone is trying t stick it to these snotty little pricks.
Paul Kugman from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/18/opinion/18KRUG.html

Behind the Great Divide

"There has been much speculation why Europe and the U.S. are suddenly at such odds. Is it about culture? About history? But I haven't seen much discussion of an obvious point: We have different views partly because we see different news.

Let's back up. Many Americans now blame France for the chill in U.S.-European relations. There is even talk of boycotting French products.

But France's attitude isn't exceptional. Last Saturday's huge demonstrations confirmed polls that show deep distrust of the Bush administration and skepticism about an Iraq war in all major European nations, whatever position their governments may take. In fact, the biggest demonstrations were in countries whose governments are supporting the Bush administration.

There were big demonstrations in America too. But distrust of the U.S. overseas has reached such a level, even among our British allies, that a recent British poll ranked the U.S. as the world's most dangerous nation — ahead of North Korea and Iraq.

So why don't other countries see the world the way we do? News coverage is a large part of the answer..."
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
Yet it is France who is the nation out front on this issue, they deserve the tomatoes being thrown at them.

Paul Krugman is on record opposing the war in any form. Always important to understand frame of reference.
 

sal95

Cyburbian
Messages
65
Points
4
fries

I saw on the news this morning that a Topeka restaurant was now serving "Freedom fries" instead of french fries. . .they even come with a little American flag. :)

Sad news: My husband has received his invitation to the big dance and will probably be leaving very soon.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Re: fries

sal95 said:
Sad news: My husband has received his invitation to the big dance and will probably be leaving very soon.
Sorry to hear that Sal. Seems everyone I know is being personally touched by this. Hopefully it will be over in 100 hours like the last one and he'll be back with you soon. In the mean time, our thoughts are with you!
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,984
Points
29
Dito to what Brian said. I'm praying they all return safely, even the Iraqis. In a perfect world only Saddam would get hurt.
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
Seabishop said:

Are the French and Germans really blocking entry into the EU by the Eastern European nations that support the US position?
Jacque Chirac has said that the E. European countries “missed an opportunity to keep quiet.” by supporting the US position on Iraq, and that they should think about the consequences as they try to gain entry to the EU.

Quite fascist sounding for such a politically correct government. Apparently after years behind the iron curtain these countries now need France to make up their mind for them. Why does France think they have more of a say then other EU countries like Italy and Spain who support the US position?
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,464
Points
29
Given my experience over the past year with French wine, I'm not sure that would be a sacrifice.

Cheese, though, that's another story :)
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
BKM said:
Given my experience over the past year with French wine, I'm not sure that would be a sacrifice.

Cheese, though, that's another story :)
This from a guy who lives in a state that considers Velveeta a cheese...

I will point out that the best cheeses in the world come from Wisconsin. They pair very well with a California wine.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Blessed are the Cheesemakers for they shall inherit the earth??
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,464
Points
29
Hijack! Cheese Wars!

Any place like California that has a huge yuppie population and is food obsessed will have good cheese. California is really big now in "artisinal cheeses" made by individual womyn goatherders on organic, flower-bedecked hillsides. There are some great producers out here. Even the countryside says "cheese." During the spring/winter you would almost swear you are in Ireland or Switzerland.

Wisconsin? Pah. Processed blocks of cheddar or mozarella from factory farms made by cows shivering in your sub-zero winters.

End Hijack!
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
BKM said:
Given my experience over the past year with French wine, I'm not sure that would be a sacrifice.
There seems to be plenty of fine wine available in the western hemisphere. Add to that Australia and even Spain (coincidentally enough, both part of the coalition of the willing) and I just don't see any need to spend our money on French wine.

As a matter of fact, if a ship arrives in Boston with French wine on board I'm all for boarding the ship and dumping their wine in Boston Harbor :)

A party anyone?
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Runner, let's make it a drinking party. ;) So what about Germany? The only great reislings (excepting a few from Austria) are from the Model-Saar-Ruhr region. Of course, Germany sided with the rest of NATO now on the Turkey issue. Reisling is an outstanding choice of wines to serve with turkey. Did anyone catch the news story about some PETA folks complaining that the turkeys pardoned by the president at Thanksgiving are being deprived of their rights by being kept in a pen (or something silly like that). What are these people smoking. Ever have smoked turkey? Mmmm, good.
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
Michael Stumpf said:
So what about Germany? The only great reislings (excepting a few from Austria) are from the Model-Saar-Ruhr region...

Did anyone catch the news story about some PETA folks complaining that the turkeys pardoned by the president at Thanksgiving are being deprived of their rights by being kept in a pen (or something silly like that). What are these people smoking.
Just to stir the pot we need to tell them the pen is located in Guantanamo Bay. That ought to push them over the edge


As for German wines, Mrs. Runner and I stick almost exclusively with red wines so the Germans can keep their Rieslings. But I'm a go for the party. We can drink products from the "coalition of the willing" while pouring the rest into the harbor. AND as my bladder fills I can think of a chaser to follow the French wine over the railing and into the sea ;)
 
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