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New Jersey

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
Popular culture tells me New Jersey is a mixture of heavy industry, terrible ghettos, suburban sprawl and beachfront tackiness. My limited exposure to NJ includes Rt 95 (heavy industry/meadowlands) and Atlantic City before I was too young to care. . . so I don't know the answer myself.

Is New Jersey really so bad, or is it just put down because it isn't NYC or Philly?


(p.s. I'm talking about the state, not the Bon Jovi album.)
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
-Depends where you are in NJ. Walk past the casinos in Atlantic City and you can see the real progress a casino has had on the surrounding area, boarded up buildings and crumbling slums. Camben has a reputation of being full of corrupt politicians sort of like Youngstown Ohio, but then again what city doesn't.
 

Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,238
Points
30
Here is my observations of some of the towns I've been to in New Jersey

Cape May Very architcturally significant - perhaps the most intact large town on the east coast. But it comes at a great cost. Rich yuppies from New York and Philly have driven up housing values and hotel rates to the point that they are out of reach for most Americans

Wildwood Less intact than Cape May but contains pockets of high-density housing. Some really nice affordable 1950s and 1960s two and three story hotels. Nice boardwalk too.

North Wildwood. Less intact than Wildwood, as rich yuppies relentlessly tear down cottages and small local business outlets for jive-plastic condos

Stone Harbor. A pretentious Hellhole seething with Yuppie Scum. Most of the early cottages have been torn down for huge million dollar McMansions that block everyone's view of the Ocean. God help us all if this town ever gets hit by a hurricane, because we will all pay dearly for it (through FEMA)

Villas. Delaware Bay community full of nice 1920s to 1950s cottages that are mostly intact except for a replacement siding and enclosed porches. But yuppies have put up a few McMansions along the streets that face the Delaware Bay. blocking the view of the sunsets from the public road to suit their own insatiably self-centered and high-maintenance tastes.

Atlantic City. A hellhole of pretentious, out of scale casinos, and some of the greatest politcal curruption on the east coast. Meanwhile the whole balance of the city is falling apart. One of the Top 10 most poverty stricken communties in America.

There are also some nice towns along Route 49 from Wilmington to Millville, including Salem, Bridgeton and Millville
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
My perspective can't be very accurate, because it's based on what was 10 years ago and looked through a subdeveloped country 6 year olds perspective (I mean, I found everything so cool, because we didn't have anything like that, and we still don't have much :p)

I lived in a town called Nutley, if anybody has the chance to pass by there...
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,772
Points
61
I grew up in NJ.
Mom still lives in the same house 40+ yrs.
Traditional suburban split-level ranch in a commuter town.
I look forward to my trips back home.

what do want to know about New Jersey?
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Boy, Cat. Do you like ANYTHING or ANYPLACE?

I am pretty sarcastic and negative about places, but still...

Sadly, not everyone can live like Kunstler in a classic 1820 Greek Revival cottage. Or a classic historic walkup apartment like Jane Jacobs. Some people may actually be poor and be forced to live in a "slum."

Others may be affluent (or do you believe the rich "YUPPIES" are all worthless and we need to simply level everybody to the same income?) Some of these wealthy folks may actually have BAD TASTE! Unlike the average joes who exhibit their bad taste through lawn ornaments, these "yuppies" may actually build houses that are TOO BIG. That's too bad, maybe, but is it government's role to enforce taste for everyone? CAN government enforce "good taste" when the culture as a whole is completely confused about what such good taste is? Heck, Victorian architecture to me is a little gaudy, too. When is a house "too big" or "tacky"? Should the government step in and regulate house prices so that YUPPIES cannot bid up the price in a desirable area? Which politician that you know would propose such a thing? How would it work?
 

Mud Princess

Cyburbian
Messages
4,898
Points
27
I can't agree with SAC's assessment of Cape May. The town is also known as one of the top locations in the country for birdwatching, and there are some great natural areas, as well as less expensive hotels/motels, inns, and restaurants. Guess I missed all the rich yuppies when I was there last fall.

The suburban sprawl, urban wastelands, etc. are definitely at their worst in the areas closest to NYC and Philly. There used to be some very pretty rural areas & historic towns dating back to the Revolutionary War in the 'outlying' parts of the state, but in the last 15-20 years, these communities have grown tremendously, losing their unique character to residential and commercial sprawl. Too bad.
 

Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,238
Points
30
BKM said:
Boy, Cat. Do you like ANYTHING or ANYPLACE?

Others may be affluent (or do you believe the rich "YUPPIES" are all worthless and we need to simply level everybody to the same income?)



Yuppiness isn't necessarily and income...it a mindset. Maybe I should have made that more clear. Yuppies must always be catered to and have the best of everything no matter who is hurt in the process. Their materialism and worship of the consumer culture knows no end. Their incredible greediness is second only to their degree of high-maintenance.

Not that all rich people are Yupps. If you're rich but don't fit into the mindset of "buy this product or your dogcrap" then you're probably not a yuppie. On the other hand, if you have no money, but max out credit cards for expensive clothes, designer cell phones, shoes, and other totem merchandise (and then conveniently file for bankruptcy) then you're a "yuppie wannabe" of sorts and that's even worse. Remember that Trixie a few months back who started her own website to help her get out of debt? Well, she was the epitome of high-maintenance. The sad thing is, is that there were so many fools who sent her money so she could spend, spend, and spend again.

I submit that no other segment of our society inflicts as much damage onto the environment and general quality of life as do Yuppies. They make up a relatively small part of the population yet consume a disproportionate amount of resources, in the way of everything from fuel consumption to land consumption (or "land raping" better yet). From their big, stupid, gas guzzling SUVs to their Million Dollar coastal McMansions (that we must all pay for whenever there's a hurricane) their greed - and utter contempt for responsibility - knows no bounds. They drive up home prices and rental rates prices in coastal villages all up along the Atlantic so that places that once were affordable to almost everyone are now completely out of reach as diners and $50 night motel rooms give way to $8 glasses of Merlot and $259/night time shares. The public realm of the beach is being destroyed for their little private, sterile, "enclaves." From Tybee Beach, Georgia to the Jersey Shore you will be hard pressed to find one place that in some way has not been diseased to some degree by the souless monoculture of Yuppiedom.

Perhaps worst of all, yuppies are an incredible tax burden as their relentless demand for privacy and pod housing in the hinterlands further strains the already taxed infrastructure of communities and region as a whole. And this is happening all over the country, not just the coast. And chances are they live in a jurisdiction, such as a township, where there is no payroll tax and thus further add to the regional tax burden. Meanwhile, the core of many cities and even older suburbs continues to deteriorate. That's because that automobile centered-50's mindset of the suburbs being the be-all end-all of existence still prevails among most zoning regulations and the politicians in control of pork-barrel highway projects who are in position to stop this insanity but refuse.

So that is what I observed on my last trip to the Jersey shore: A region under siege from an orgy of new construction and teeth gnashing traffic. And it's not just me that is noticing this. They did an article in the USA Today a few years back that stated that thousands of small cottages on the Jersey Shore are being demolished for huge, out-of-scale Monster Houses.

And believe me on this one thing: If a major hurricane were ever to hit this region it will bankrupt FEMA as we know it. And it will be you and me that pay for those hundreds of millions dollar McMansions if it ever does.

When is a house "too big" or "tacky"? Should the government step in and regulate house prices so that YUPPIES cannot bid up the price in a desirable area? Which politician that you know would propose such a thing? How would it work?
Well, I don't know about controlling prices per se, but a good start would be to end FEMA assistance to hurricane prone areas of the coast] (with existing houses above a certain age perhaps grandfathered in for a one time payout) No rent controls will be needed then. Watch the bottom fall out of the market once these yups finally realize the next time a hurricane blows their house down, there will be nobody there to bail them out.
 

Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,238
Points
30
Mud Princess said:
I can't agree with SAC's assessment of Cape May. The town is also known as one of the top locations in the country for birdwatching, and there are some great natural areas, as well as less expensive hotels/motels, inns, and restaurants. Guess I missed all the rich yuppies when I was there last fall.

Well, all I know is that when we were there one weekend in September, we couldn't find a place for less than $140/night (and we were shut out of B & B's altogether because we have kids). Meanwhile, just up the coast, in Wildwood, we found a really nice hotel, clean and roomy, less and two blocks from the beach for about $50/night.

I'm sorry but that amount of disproportion says something. Cape May isn't nearly as bad as Stone Harbor but in my opinion it's not affordable.
 

The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
Points
25
Mercerville was ok, my family lived there and I liked parts of it for no particular reason, Trenton -yikes, Newark-nevermind
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
You do know that "Yuppie" is a bastardization of the acronym "YUP" for Young Urban Professional, right? Technically, I'm a yuppie. Granted, there's a lot of trixie and chad behaviour among yuppies, but many of them are good people, and they're certanly not the type of people buying McMansions in Sprawlville.
 
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Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,238
Points
30
jordanb said:
You do know that "Yuppie" is a bastardization of the acronym "YPI" for Young Urban Professional, right? Technically, I'm a yuppie. Granted, there's a lot of trixie and chad behaviour among yuppies, but many of them are good people, and they're certanly not the type of people buying McMansions in Sprawlville.
Well find me a better term and I'll use it, but like I said it's a lifestyle not merely an income or profession, age, or environmental status. For example, people who live in half-million dollar mansions in gated communities in the suburbs are technically not "yuppies" per se, because they don't live in and urban environment. However, I would call them that just the same because they share the same expensive tastes, as their counterparts in the gentrified central city.

Trixie would certainly be a better term, but that only applies to women. What would you call a high-maintenance guy? It would be nice to have one equally degrading term, across the board, for both men and women. Yuppie is the closest word I know.

Yeah the technical term may apply to just about every professional under age 30, living in an urban evvironment, but the stigma of the word (and the meaning it has taken on as applying to only those that are spoiled and high-maintenance as well) seems to only apply to that segment within that group.
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
My mother is from Jersey... and I used to spend a good portion of my summer down the shore. I am more familiar with northern Jersey than southern. The shore is not all "tacky" towns. Much of the north shore looks like the "gold coast" of Long Island... the estates that remind you of the Great Gatsby.

The horse country in northern Jersey can be very pristine and rival any farmland in "New England" The towns can also be as charming as any (and there are many) in New England as well.

I think many who live in Jersey just laugh at the stereotypes that have been slapped on them... because they really live in a spectacular area... close to the ocean, great farmland, and close to major metropolitan cities, Philly and NYC. Jersey also has places that actually have rich character... like Asbury Park, Spring Lake, Atlantic CIty.... not some new urbanism knock-off. You can't buy history.

.... and they also have an additional test required to be a planner
 

Gedunker

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11,482
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41
I grew up in Jersey and I am glad I don't live there anymore.

I experienced enough of the hyper-urban life wedged between New York and Philadelphia: I clearly remember the '67 riots and going to the bank with my mom and seeing National Guard troops with machine guns standing guard at the front doors; the grief of the policeman's family when his lifeless body was discovered stuffed into a shopping cart and thrown off a bridge to a brook just a few blocks from my house; the high-speed police chase -- allegedly with rioters fleeing Newark for Plainfield -- and my dad throwing me to the porch floor so I wouldn't get hit with a stray bullet. I remember my mom and dad moving us kids from one town to another after school busing took my brother from an elementary school a block from our house to the other side of town.

I remember playing the Star Spangled Banner with my geeky band friends at Yankee Stadium (twice, including in the 1977 World Series); I remember a day at the shore with an old girlfriend and watching dolphins one moment and the Concorde fly overhead minutes later on its way into JFK; I remember attending commitee testimony in the State Capitol when I interned at Preservation New Jersey, Inc. when we first attached preservation funding to a Green Acres bill (and that passed).

I remember being proud when I learned that New Jersey was the most pivotal place during the Revolution; that the legend of Valley Forge was the over-exagerrated product of some tourism marketer's imagination and that the harshest and most dangerous winter for the Continental Troops was survived at Morristown; that the mostly Italian community I grew up in had assimilated by the time the first native-born generation was my age (and thinking back on it, I doubt there was a "Goombah" in the bunch); that my tiny high school class produced two Rhodes Scholars.

I remember being frightened that the brook across the street from my house would overtop its banks during the '72 flood that cost three lives in my borough; the blizzard of '78 and the sense of community that saw neighbors taking care of neighbors; red tides in Margate.

Am I surprised that a room can't be found in Cape May for under $140.00/night while nice rooms can be found in Wildwood for $50? Nope. That some people have more money and bad taste than should be legal? Nope. That New Jersey will forever be the target of people who subscribe to perpetuating stereotypes? No, I am not.

Yes, I grew up in New Jersey and I'm glad I don't live there anymore. But I wouldn't change it even if I could.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Super Amputee Cat said:
Trixie would certainly be a better term, but that only applies to women. What would you call a high-maintenance guy?
Chad.

Chad is Trixie's boyfriend, but if his credit card ever maxes out, she'll leave him hanging.

Wahh Wahh WAAAaaahahahahhhhhh
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Well, I am certainly a "yuppie." by many definitions (although I don't live in a particularly "hip" town or neighborhood-I'm too old to worry about hip nightclubs, too). I spend way too much money and probably have at many times lived beyond my means. Mea culpa, so sue me. It ain't just yuppies who are raising the total American consumer debt load. It's all segments of society.

The typical yuppie:

* Doesn't live in a distant exurb in a gated mansion.
* Doesn't house a two person household in a 3000 square foot house on a quarter acre lot.
* Doesn't drive forty miles each way to work.
* Doesn't believe that "God" entitles them to six children.

Your distate for a particular subset (a tiny minority) of the population is just a little odd. Heck, let's look at the good ol' American blue collar hero:

* Lives on a semi-rural hobby farm-talk about environmental damage!
* Votes vociferously against anything that might attract "minorities" or "foreigners" or "queers."
* Drives a large pollution spewing pickup truck (even if he doesn't use it for work.
* Exhibits many "tacky" attributes i.e., music taste, lawn ornaments, town-next-door attributes.
* Does outdoor sports and activities that cause far more environmental damage than a yuppie's trendy jogging paths (look at the monster SUV adds chewing through the scenery.)

No, I don't want to start a "one segment of society against another" flame war, especially since some of us fall into one stereotypical classification or another. Its just I find nasty sneers about "yuppies" silly-especially when combined with claims that vaguely defined yuppies "cause more damage than anyone else." We ALL cause damage-unless you are living off the grid in a commune on the California Lost Coast. We are ALL consumers.

Heck, if it wasn't for yuppies, America's larger cities would be far more degraded war zones than they are. Gentrification is not all bad, people. Abandonment and decay are not all good. Wealth, trendy people, and youthful sense of entitlement have always been with us. Conspicuous consumption cuts across class and cultural boundaries-to blame "yuppies" for all our environments' evils is ludicrous.
 

masafer

Cyburbian
Messages
32
Points
2
It's been my observation that New Jersey's bad image is due almost entriely to the stretch of the Turnpike between Newark Airport and New York City. That's almost entirely heavy industry, with chemical factories, the Port of Newark, and refineries, broken up only by stretches of swamp or football stadia. The only other road I've been on that even comes close is the Indiana Turnpike through Gary, and far fewer people are exposed to that to give Indiana a bad name. Fortunately, there's alot more to the state than just that.

Yeah, it's got problems with sprawl (what area doesn't), but it also has an amazing history of small-town urbanism, and there are still many small towns with thriving downtowns well served by transit. Take a look at Westfield, Ridgewood, Rutherford, or if you want to get a little bigger, Morristown, New Brunswick or Hackensack. Having lived in both Florida and Chicago, there was nothing approaching the shear number of dense urban cores in either place.

Alot of the cities have problems, similar to any old industrial state. Camden is basically a lost cause, and Elizabeth ain't too hot, but Newark is starting to come back, and Jersey City is very rapidly gentrifying. Rents in Hoboken are as expensive as Manhattan, with nightlife comparable to Greenwich Village. Basically, the cities aren't any worse than the majority in other similar states, such as Connecticut, or Massachussetts, but those states aren't being constantly compared to New York or Philadelphia, which is hard to live up to.

Alot of the things people don't like about the state can be chalked up to the sheer density (about 1200/sq mi), and it's actually even denser than that number indicates, because large areas of the state are basically off limits to development in the Pinelands. There are still numerous natural areas, in South Jersey, and especially in the Northwest, and they're rapidly being protected. Perhaps more than any other state, New Jersey is acquiring open space, and there are predictions now that the state will be fully built out within the next twenty years. There simply won't be any more green fields left on which to build.

Not that it's all completely rosy, but there are a LOT of people here crammed into not too big of a state, and you have to ask yourself why. There's a reason, and it's because Jersey really does offer a wide variety of built and natural environment, all easily accessible. Some people don't like it because it's crowded, but there are certain things that us planners generally like that become much easier to do when density exists.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Well all of these posts are too long to read right now, but I do intend to get back to them at some point today.

Once again cat, your stupid holier than though mindset is completely off the mark, and obviously stems from either your lack of a significant income? Maybe jealousy of some sort since you just didn't make it in theis life? I'm not sure. Your attitude is one of the biggest problems I see in our profession. You don't own the world and it isn't yours to develop as you see fit. Go play Amish Sim City with Stardarcy if thats what you want. Here goes some points to ponder on NJ.


Cape May Very architcturally significant - perhaps the most intact large town on the east coast. But it comes at a great cost. Rich yuppies from New York and Philly have driven up housing values and hotel rates to the point that they are out of reach for most Americans
Cape May - My parents live here. Bought there house for 45K 16 years ago, now worth about 250K. Why? Because real estate generally rises in value, expecially when its 3 blocks from the beach. This is the same for most houses in their neighborhood. Very yuppyish, I agree, considering a house in suburban Philly or Philly itself in some parts costs 250K +

Wildwood Less intact than Cape May but contains pockets of high-density housing. Some really nice affordable 1950s and 1960s two and three story hotels. Nice boardwalk too.
Wildwood -- What you don't want to do to a shore town. There hasn't been code enforcement here in 35 years and the city has just been run into the ground. Commonly referred to as "North Philly by the Sea". In order to by property now, the city is making the buyer bring the property up to code (tear the place down and rebuild). We looked at buying property here this summer. House 2 blocks off the beach 45K, needs to be ripped down and rebuilt. City is a lost cause IMO.


North Wildwood. Less intact than Wildwood, as rich yuppies relentlessly tear down cottages and small local business outlets for jive-plastic condos

North Wildwood. -- A more year round community. These "rich yuppies" live in 250K - 350K cottages and ranchers with beautifully manicured lawns and landscaping. Last time I checked, condos were built by developers, not "yuppies" and it is the City and State which permits it to happen.

"Stone Harbor. A pretentious Hellhole seething with Yuppie Scum. Most of the early cottages have been torn down for huge million dollar McMansions that block everyone's view of the Ocean. God help us all if this town ever gets hit by a hurricane, because we will all pay dearly for it (through FEMA)"
You really don't have a clue what you are talking about do you? You just make this shit up as you go along. Do you belong to PETA too? Friends of Hillary?

Villas. Delaware Bay community full of nice 1920s to 1950s cottages that are mostly intact except for a replacement siding and enclosed porches. But yuppies have put up a few McMansions along the streets that face the Delaware Bay. blocking the view of the sunsets from the public road to suit their own insatiably self-centered and high-maintenance tastes.
The Villas, commonly referred to as "Kensington by the Bay" (note: Kensington is the neighborhood where Rocky V was filmed). This is where all the "townies" live.

When I was young yuppy scum we hads a house in the Villas as our summer house (cost 23K in 1973), and my yuppy scum parents have since upgraded to Cape May. After having spent a great deal of my 28 years living along the Delaware Bay, I've never been able to see the sunset from the road, even in North Cape May where there are no houses along the beach. Could it possibly be because of the 20 ft high dunes that line the road?

Again, you are just spewing shit out of your mouth.

Atlantic City. A hellhole of pretentious, out of scale casinos, and some of the greatest politcal curruption on the east coast. Meanwhile the whole balance of the city is falling apart. One of the Top 10 most poverty stricken communties in America.
Sounds alot like Vegas don't it, without the hookers though.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Good, locals response!

Without knowing Jersey, Mike, I could only respond to his underlying "themes," which I find ridiculous.

Heck, I know I can be negative, but geez louise.
 

Wm.J.Lufred

Member
Messages
14
Points
1
Ah! NJ

In the end Jersey isn't really a place as much as a state of mind. I grew up in NJ --in a suburban community where my backyard stretched through old growth forest and over a resevoir for miles, broken only once by a road with convenient drainage tunnles underneath big enough for a child (or grown man) to pass through --very Bridge to Terrebythea(sp?)--and also could probably never move back. But oh to be from Jersey, you really can't understand it unless you grew up there.
My wife and I have a sort of joke about being from NJ, which we both are. We met in Washington DC where we still live, but we always say that we could never have married someone who wasn't from NJ (northern NJ in particular) because the cultural differences would just have been too great to overcome.
To this day I find I have very little tolerance for people not from the Metropolitan area--Californians in particular suck, and midwesterners are just very nice people who I just don't get (how can anyone live that far from an ocean?), and let's not even talk about Southerners (I only go into Virginia kicking and screaming).
We did used to play "Name that Smell" as we drove down the Turnpike, but that's just part of the magic of the Garden State.
 

biscuit

Cyburbian
Messages
3,904
Points
25
Re: Ah! NJ

Wm.J.Lufred said:
To this day I find I have very little tolerance for people not from the Metropolitan area--Californians in particular suck, and midwesterners are just very nice people who I just don't get (how can anyone live that far from an ocean?), and let's not even talk about Southerners (I only go into Virginia kicking and screaming).
The real reason why the rest of the country rags on Jersey? ;)
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
NY Metro (Jersey, Connecticutt, NY) is the Marsha Brady of USA.... and whenever I hear NY Bashing,,, blah, blah, NY, blah..... I just hear... Jan crying "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha...." ;)
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Well, there's two strikes against me. I'm a midwesterner relocated to California.

You "Metropolitan" people are just jealous. I've learned to simply ignore any article in the New York Times (an otherwise good read) that attempts to "explain" California to us unwashed masses who haven't succumbed to the lure of the Big Apple. Talk about bias!
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
[ot]Well, my trip to California left me with a generally good impression of the people there. They were incredibly nice, much moreso than here in the "friendly Midwest." (Of course, I had a friend from Massachusetts who drove cross country to San Francisco and then back east again. He said the the Chicago area was the first place since leaving MA where people made him feel like he was at home. :-/)

What I don't like about Cali is A) their sandals and granola obsession with "direct democracy," and the complete ignorance if history necessary to buy into that buillshit, and B) their belief that they set all trends ever and the rest of the country just waits in excited anticipation to see what California is going to do next so we can emulate it. (Hint: We're laughing at you, not with you). These complains can be applied to the entire west coast but I think the rest of that area acts like that because of all of the Californian refugees there.[/ot]

I suspect that the problem the rest of the country has with New Jersey is similar to their problem with New York, mainly that people from those areas can't believe that all points west aren't undeveloped hinterland. Also the Turnpike dosen't do it any favors, and statistically, the place is near build out, its got horrible runoff problems, and horrible air problems. It's not like other areas aren't like that, but they aren't part of the "rust belt" and thus get a repreive in the average person's mind. It's silly that New Jersey gets bashed when LA and Atlanta don't just because it's got some old factories, especially considering that NJ actually has some real areas, but that's probably not going to change until this country gets over its obsession with the sunbelt.

midwesterners are just very nice people who I just don't get (how can anyone live that far from an ocean?),
I live less than a mile from the shore of this little pond, which is part of a little network of ponds that just happen to contain one fifth of the fresh water on earth, 95% of the fresh water in the United States. You might have heard of them, a lot of people think they're great.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Its a shame that North Jersey and South Jersey aren't seperate states, because they are nothing alike, IMO.
 

Gedunker

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Moderator
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11,482
Points
41
Mike D. said:
Its a shame that North Jersey and South Jersey aren't seperate states, because they are nothing alike, IMO.
Bingo! You got it exactly right Mike D.

Historically, there were two New Jerseys: East and West (although they actually aligned more north/south) but they were unified before the Revolution.

When I lived there (1960-'78 and '83-'85) there were two petition drives to try to have a Consitutional amendment to allow the south part of the state secede.

They went nowhere, of course, but many people have had that discussion.

I used to love summer weekdays at the shore (Ventnor), but I really miss the Delaware Water Gap / Appalchian Trail area. The leaves right now should be just about perfect....
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
umm.. how come you have east new jersey... along the western border???

JordanB.... I won't speak for all New Yorkers... but I am a native New Yorker (not the city but the state) I have traveled from Maine to the keys of Florida, to the Smokey mountains, to the rolling hills around Gettysburg, West Virginia, to the Outer Banks....could go on and on.... I've been to many states,,, often vacationing each year to different parts of the Country. But, despite everywhere I have travelled, I would never want to live anywhere besides New York, except for maybe New Jersey!!

(also,,, NY not only has a big pond... but boasts one of the cleanest lakes in the world... Lake George)

I believe one thing some of have in common here is our passion for the land for which we live... and the land I love is New York... even where SGB and Downtown live.... ;)
 

Greenescapist

Cyburbian
Messages
1,169
Points
24
I kinda like Jersey. A lot of my college friends and a few ex-girlfriends are from there. There are a lot of pretty places. I have spent a lot of time in Montclair, Westfield and all the areas near NYC. I think the state gets a bad rap. Sure it's industrial, but it's right next to NYC and industry has to concentrate somewhere.
 

The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
Points
25
OT

B) their belief that they set all trends ever and the rest of the country just waits in excited anticipation to see what California is going to do next so we can emulate it.
Sounds like you watch a lot of tv, my experience being in California for most of my life is that more people outside of the state regurgitate that bullshit about California being a trend setter. and if you're going to talk about California be specific as to what region. Califonia is enormous geographically and culturally.

A) their sandals and granola obsession with "direct democracy," and the complete ignorance if history necessary to buy into that buillshit,
This again sounds like more ignorant ranting, but please explain to me, a Californian, my "complete ignorance if history necessary to buy into that buillshit "

Oh and by the way I will be wearing sandals in January and yes, I will enjoy some granola.
 

bocian

Cyburbian
Messages
212
Points
9
NJ has what even NYC doesn't have: urban density!
What's the most densely populated city in the US?
Union City , NJ: 45,000 people per sq. mile.
Hey, who's got the 2nd spot?
Hoboken, NJ, with 38,000 people/sq. mile.
Your city ain't even close!!...
And NJ as a state, and Trenton as the city in particular, has taken many steps to curb pollution (especially auto exhaust), promote public transit, etc. so give NJ a chance, that's what I say!!
ps. yes, living in NYC, and later in Boston, we used to joke about NJ: "Oh, which exit do you live off?", but hey, it's not really that bad there... check out places such as Gary, IN for comparison purposes...
 
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The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
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25
yes, living in NYC, and later in Boston, we used to joke about NJ: "Oh, which exist do you live off?", but hey, it's not really that bad there...
I always hear that New Jersey has a smell to it. Whatever.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,772
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61
Greenescapist said:
I have spent a lot of time in Westfield
What brought you to Westfield any way?
I grew up there.
 
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Greenescapist

Cyburbian
Messages
1,169
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24
JNA said:
What brought you to Westfield any way?
I grew up there.
An ex-girlfriend. She grew up there. Nice town. I liked that there were a lot of old homes. Not all that crappy, vinyl McMansion construction that's standard today. I haven't been there since we split 5 years ago.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,772
Points
61
Orgianally posted by Masafer
towns with thriving downtowns well served by transit. Take a look at
Six more towns put on list for Transit Village funding
"eligible for state assistance as they seek to attract dense residential and commercial development to rail, bus or ferry stations. The new Transit Villages -- meant to reduce highway congestion and encourage vital downtowns..."
In the Star Ledger
Saturday, October 11, 2003
http://www.nj.com/statehouse/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1065849202171600.xml
 

tsc

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1,905
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23
Greenescapist said:
I kinda like Jersey. A lot of my college friends and a few ex-girlfriends are from there. There are a lot of pretty places. I have spent a lot of time in Montclair, Westfield and all the areas near NYC. I think the state gets a bad rap. Sure it's industrial, but it's right next to NYC and industry has to concentrate somewhere.
Montclair is pretty nice... I always want to go to Outpost in the Burbs... they schedule some great shows there.
 

passdoubt

Cyburbian
Messages
407
Points
13
New Jersey gets its reputation by being perched between two of the biggest cities in the country without having any metropolitan areas to call its own. Whether you're in the North or the South, "the city" means a place out of state. You gotta root for the Phillies or the Yankees. New Jerseyans, dispite living in the most crowded conditions on average of any state in the union, have a real identity crisis. Parts of North Jersey are a hell of a lot more packed than most West Coast downtowns, yet they're perpetually "suburbs" compared to Manhattan. Sometimes it feels like South Jersey suburbanites claim Philadelphia as their own city louder than Philadelphians themselves. After all, Center City is closer to Gloucester City than it is to parts of Northeast Philly or Manayunk, which are within city limits.

In the end I think that New Jersey makes it clear that culturally, people are more tied to metropolitan areas than they are to states (you could also look at VA/DC/MD). The division of municipality is counter productive in this case, and it would make more sense for South Jersey to be annexed as a part of Eastern Pennsylvania, and North Jersey to suceed to New York. Then the Pittsburgh area could be connected to Ohio. After all, Western Pennsylvania is a straaaange world to a Philadelphian. They call soda "pop"! That's the Midwest, dammit. Of course, this restructuring of state boundaries would never happen, but it'd be fun to consider.
 

bocian

Cyburbian
Messages
212
Points
9
passdoubt said:
The division of municipality is counter productive in this case, and it would make more sense for South Jersey to be annexed as a part of Eastern Pennsylvania, and North Jersey to suceed to New York. Then the Pittsburgh area could be connected to Ohio. After all, Western Pennsylvania is a straaaange world to a Philadelphian. They call soda "pop"! That's the Midwest, dammit. Of course, this restructuring of state boundaries would never happen, but it'd be fun to consider.
And where would be the new divider between larger states of Pennsylvania and New York?
In particular, in which state would cities like Trenton or Atlantic City end up?
 

Gedunker

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41
passdoubt said:
The division of municipality is counter productive in this case, and it would make more sense for South Jersey to be annexed as a part of Eastern Pennsylvania, and North Jersey to suceed to New York. Of course, this restructuring of state boundaries would never happen, but it'd be fun to consider.
Not a chance! Look, we natives first consider ourselves New Jerseyans (or New Jerseyites, if you prefer) but never Philadelphians or New Yorkers. Never! If anybody was to suggest that the state should be dissolved, they would be run off on rails. Don't even suggest such blasphemy.

Seriously, New Jersey's physical situation -- wedged between New York State and Pennsylvania -- is generally perceived as a strength rather than liability because we have easy access to two major urban areas (I'm being generous still including Philly) without the fiscal burden of supporting those areas. Politicians complain about the issue because they have to purchase air time in the metro markets, but that's their problem and Joe Sixpack couldn't care less (except that he has to watch political commercials ad infinitum for candidates out-of-state).
 

passdoubt

Cyburbian
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407
Points
13
bocian said:
And where would be the new divider between larger states of Pennsylvania and New York?
In particular, in which state would cities like Trenton or Atlantic City end up?
Pennsylvania could possibly be split somewhere between Altoona and State College. It's a rural area with no real cultural cling to either side. State College is full of people from other parts of the state anyway... Trenton and Atlantic City would both be annexed by Pennsylvania. Trenton's only 15 miles from Philly's city limits. It has a direct SEPTA connection to the city.

I read an article which detailed which shore towns lean PA and which lean NY. I forget which exact town is the breaking point, but they identified the border by sales of sports jerseys in local malls and shops. There's a point on the NJ coast where everything south of there sells more Philly sports memorabilia and everything north of there sells more for New York teams. The point is well above Atlantic City.


Gedunker said:
Not a chance! Look, we natives first consider ourselves New Jerseyans (or New Jerseyites, if you prefer) but never Philadelphians or New Yorkers. Never! If anybody was to suggest that the state should be dissolved, they would be run off on rails. Don't even suggest such blasphemy.

Seriously, New Jersey's physical situation -- wedged between New York State and Pennsylvania -- is generally perceived as a strength rather than liability because we have easy access to two major urban areas (I'm being generous still including Philly) without the fiscal burden of supporting those areas. Politicians complain about the issue because they have to purchase air time in the metro markets, but that's their problem and Joe Sixpack couldn't care less (except that he has to watch political commercials ad infinitum for candidates out-of-state).
Ah, the loyal Jerseyite. Of course it wouldn't please everybody... but my college has a large NJ contingent and let me tell you, almost every one of them describes their location in reference to NYC or Philly. The fact that everybody in New Jersey, when asked where they're from, responds w/ "Oh! I'm just about 20-30 minutes outside the city!" reveals that although your tax dollars don't support those landmarks, your identities often do.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
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4,473
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25
Jeff said:
Its a shame that North Jersey and South Jersey aren't seperate states, because they are nothing alike, IMO.
Same with upstate ny and downstate ny. Should be divided as well into at least 4 different states, if not more.
 

BKM

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6,463
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29
And, of course, what does the Bay Area really have in common with Crescent City, Fresno, or the Imperial Valley/ At least nine states here!
 

SkeLeton

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4,853
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26
Here in Valdivia there's efforts to subdivide the current 10th region (De los Lagos) into 2 regions, one that would be the current Province of Valdivia, and the other would be the remaining. The quest for this subdivision is almost 30 years old now, since the regionalization of 1974, Valdivia has wanted to be a region.

When I was in NJ... I never identified with NYC, even though that I lived quite close, I rarely went there. My parents hated going to NYC because of the traffic and all... We spent much of our time there in the northern part of NJ, we did go to PA, but I don't remember going to Philly or Atlantic City.
 

Gedunker

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passdoubt said:
Ah, the loyal Jerseyite. Of course it wouldn't please everybody... but my college has a large NJ contingent and let me tell you, almost every one of them describes their location in reference to NYC or Philly. The fact that everybody in New Jersey, when asked where they're from, responds w/ "Oh! I'm just about 20-30 minutes outside the city!" reveals that although your tax dollars don't support those landmarks, your identities often do.
There is some truth to your point -- I used to tell non-natives that I was from Somerset County, where Jackie Onassis had a summer home and used to go fox hunting. Pause. But that I was from the other part of the county. This gave them no geographic reference whatsoever. If they persisted in having some reference I would tell them that I lived 25 minutes from the City by train and an hour-and-forty minutes by car during rush hour.

Passdoubt isn't your argument about sports memorabilia a little suspect since both the Giants (my team) and the J -E-T-S Jets! Jets! Jets! play in New Jersey? ;-)

Let me guess, you are an"Iggles" fan, no?
 

boilerplater

Cyburbian
Messages
916
Points
21
preaching from the capital...

NJ has what even NYC doesn't have: urban density!
What's the most densely populated city in the US?
Union City , NJ: 45,000 people per sq. mile.
Hey, who's got the 2nd spot?
Hoboken, NJ, with 38,000 people/sq. mile.

And that density creates a demand for transit that planners in other parts of the country are struggling to create. Particularly along the NE corridor, growth in ridership has exceeded supply. They need to get double-decker cars to handle it all. Ever leave Penn station anywhere near rush hour? Even on weekends its standing room only! We have plenty of old urbanism and transit oriented development left over from the early years of the last century here. Because of that, I think using public transit doesn't have the stigma it has in other parts of the country. Millionaires take trains to their Wall St. jobs.

To the poster who said "Trenton, yikes!', I think you should give it another chance. I've been here 7 years and I think its the nicest place I've ever lived (which says a few things about the other places I've lived!). But there really are a lot of desireable neighborhoods here which remain affordable in relation to the suburbs around here. I have a river view, and its laughable how much I paid compared to any other place on both sides of the Delaware.

Yeah, the school test scores suck, which isn't a personal concern for me at this time since I don't have a family, but is a concern in a larger societal sense. That is what happens when you concentrate the majority of the poor and uneducated into one town in an area, I guess. NJ is known for its Mt. Laurel II legislation which was supposed to allow more poor people to live in the suburbs, but it has not worked out quite that way.

Trenton was recently awarded the dubious distinction of having the 4th highest crime rate of US cities of under 100,000 pop. To me that is an example of how statistics can really give a poor impression of a place or situation That crime is mostly poor-on-poor crime. Not that that makes it more tolerable, but if you are middle-class, live in one of the better neighborhoods, and don't have a drug habit to support, I think you're not likely to be affected by violent crime. The only problems I've had are a tenant having a bike stolen and a kid I encountered on a bike ride who wanted to fight me. Yeah, there are occasional break-ins and car thefts, but that happens in the suburbs too. I've noticed that a lot of people in the suburbs around here harbor prejudices of the city that date back to the days of the urban riots of the 60's. They're too scared to come downtown...its like they think of it all as some kind of lawless crack ghetto, which it is not. Its finally attracting some market-rate developers, and home values in the better 'hoods have gone way up. IMO it is time for suburbanites to get over it and not allow criminals and lowlifes to have a say in where they choose to live or shop. I think it is a poor reflection on our society that we have allowed our old urban centers to degenerate as they have. But most Jersy cities still have some raison d'etre, as they haven't enitirely lost their economic base as many Rust-belt cities. There are still jobs in commuting distance for NJ cities.

With the future prospect of build-out within 20 years though, I wonder if NJ will be the best place for someone to make a living in the building professions.
 

Curious Cat

Member
Messages
11
Points
1
Hudson County

Start through Jersey City. Jersey City is the second largest city in the state. It's industrial and a great transportation center connected to Manhattan by the Lincoln Tunnel. Today it's a rediscoverd metropolis thanks to the NYC professionals who renovated the brownstones. Hoboken is rediscovered too though it's smaller than JC. Both places have wonderful places to dine, shop, drink,club, attend plays and art shows, etc. Union City and West New York have the largest Hispanic populations in the state. Go through Bergenline Avenue and Spanish is the predominant language.
 

jimi_d

Cyburbian
Messages
93
Points
4
bocian said:
And where would be the new divider between larger states of Pennsylvania and New York?
In particular, in which state would cities like Trenton or Atlantic City end up?
Along Province Line Road perchance? Trenton and Atlantic City are obviously "in" Philly really.

The thing which astounds me about Jersey is how it combines being the densest State in the Union and still manages to have a lousy bus service.
 

jimi_d

Cyburbian
Messages
93
Points
4
boilerplater said:
NJ has what even NYC doesn't have: urban density!
What's the most densely populated city in the US?
Union City , NJ: 45,000 people per sq. mile.
Hey, who's got the 2nd spot?
Hoboken, NJ, with 38,000 people/sq. mile.
How does Paterson do?
 
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