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Parking space size

Mark

Cyburbian
Messages
152
Points
7
Our off street parking space size requirement is 9.5 ft. x 19 ft., for surface parking.

Planning Commission is talking about reducing the size to 9 ft. x 19 ft.

Any experience out there regarding 9 footers. Is it too skinny?
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
We have 9 x 19 and they work just fine. 3 inches on each side of a vehicle doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Your PC seems to be going in a different direction than a lot of Cities. I have read about a few Cities that are increasing the size of spaced becuse of all these giant SUVs and trucks.
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
9.5' is still the preferred width for most jurisdictions around here. Space length is usually 18'. Two way aisle of 26' for 90 degree, some jurisdictions use 24'. I like 60 degree parking, but you have to have well placed two way aisles and 90 degree will get you more spaces in the same area.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
2,317
Points
33
Every place I've ever worked 9' was the norm for the width and 18' for the length. It seems to work ok. One place even allowed 8.5' for "compact car" parking. Try to enforce that one!
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Make them just big enough for say a minivan to fit, then ticket all of those ******** in Tahoes and Suburbans who take up two parking spots and only put money in one meter. ;)

(Dan) Please watch your language in this subforum. Thanks.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
10x20 is more and more the norm. The Excursion thing is 19 feet long. By DOT standards, and vehicle over 8' in width needs a "Wide Load" placard. SUVs are just as wide as typical cars. Its the length and height where they are different.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
Go diagonal (if its on street parking, but it works both ways if its off-street)), you can fit more spaces to the block that way if your street is wide enough (or designated lot).
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Rumpy Tunanator said:
Go diagonal (if its on street parking, but it works both ways if its off-street)), you can fit more spaces to the block that way if your street is wide enough (or designated lot).
I've heard pluses and minuses to diagonal parking. For a busy street, reportedly, it's pretty dangerous, but I don't see how it could be more dangerous than parallel parking. It needs more lateral room but it should be a lot safer for bicyclists. There wouldn't be a chance to get doored in the bike lane, and people backing out will have to turn their cars on at least, which should give the biker some indication that there's danger.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
jordanb said:
... reportedly, it's pretty dangerous, but I don't see how it could be more dangerous than parallel parking. ...
Simple - Turning your head 100 degrees left is easier than 120 degrees right.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
But with diagonal parking you have huge blind spots if there is a car parked on either side of you. Diagonal sucks IMO, and is very dangerous for bikes because of the whole blind spot issue.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
Drivers are so rarely looking for bikes anway. If drivers would simply check their mirror before swinging their doors open there wouldn't be any danger for bikers from parallel parked cars.

If a car had to move to be a danger to bikes, at least that'd give the biker some visual warning that would signal to him to be careful.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
jordanb said:
Drivers are so rarely looking for bikes anway. If drivers would simply check their mirror before swinging their doors open there wouldn't be any danger for bikers from parallel parked cars.

If a car had to move to be a danger to bikes, at least that'd give the biker some visual warning that would signal to him to be careful.
What do you know - you dont even own a car. :) I firmly beleive every driver should be required to ride a motorcycle in rush hour traffic, or ride a bycicle on the shoulder of an arterial for at least one week. You gain a HUGE appreciation for them.
 

Rem

Cyburbian
Messages
1,524
Points
23
Jeff said:
But with diagonal parking you have huge blind spots if there is a car parked on either side of you. Diagonal sucks IMO, and is very dangerous for bikes because of the whole blind spot issue.
We have a fair bit of angle parking in commercial centres where we may want to maximise roadside parking, slow the traffic, or narrow the travelling lanes for pedestrians. We do however insist on rear to kerb - ie. so you back in and drive out. Backing in should be safer because you have just traversed the road you back over to get into your space. Using your mirrors to reverse should ensure there are no surprises. Provided you drive out slowly there should be no threat to bicycles when leaving either.

As far as space dimensions go - below is an extract from our controls (one shouldn't expect a simple answer from a planner on such questions).
Table 7 – Minimum Car Space Widths
Minimum
Width
User Type
2.4 m Reserved parking with low turnover rates, such as employee car parking areas at industrial and commercial premises.
2.5 m Public car parking areas with low turnover rates, such as a sporting venue.
2.6 m Public car parking areas with moderate turnover rates, such as a Local Centre shopping centre or medical centre.
Reserved spaces where passengers and goods can be expected to be loaded or unloaded, such as tenant car parking areas in residential buildings. Visitor parking at commercial, industrial and residential premises.
2.7 m Small public car parking areas with high turnover rates, typical duration of stay 30 minutes,
particularly shopping centres up to 1000 m2 GFA, fast food stores etc.
3.2 m Parking spaces reserved for people with disabilities.

Length
Except for small car spaces (5m) and parallel parking spaces, all bays are 5.4 metres in length.
Parallel parking spaces are a minimum of 6.0 metres in length. This can be reduced to 5.4 metres if the space is at the open
end of the row of spaces, or increased by 300mm if closed by a kerb at one end and by 600mm if closed by a kerb at both ends.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Rem said:
We have a fair bit of angle parking in commercial centres where we may want to maximise roadside parking, slow the traffic, or narrow the travelling lanes for pedestrians....
The problem with on-street parking, whether parallel, angled, or perpendicular, is that we (or at least mostly the transportation engineers) have no desire or intention of slowing traffic. Any of these parking techniques could be safely employed if we designed streets appropriately for them, and enforced speed limits. Instead, we will widen a downtown street to four lanes with parallel parking, and instantly begin to complain that the street isn't pedestrian-friendly, cars and trucks travel too fast, there is insufficient parking, and it is too difficult to park when you do locate a space. Which do you want to prioritize, moving traffic quickly, or character and economic vitality?
 

Tom R

Cyburbian
Messages
2,274
Points
25
Width

Jeff said:
10x20 is more and more the norm. The Excursion thing is 19 feet long. By DOT standards, and vehicle over 8' in width needs a "Wide Load" placard. SUVs are just as wide as typical cars. Its the length and height where they are different.
How wide is a Hummer?
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
Re: Width

Tom R said:
How wide is a Hummer?
From www.hummer.com

H1=86.5 inches (excluding mirrors) Track width = 71.6 inches
Length = 184.5 inches

H2 = 81.2 inches Track width = 69.4 inches length =189.8 inches
 

Rem

Cyburbian
Messages
1,524
Points
23
Cardinal said:
The problem with on-street parking, whether parallel, angled, or perpendicular, is that we (or at least mostly the transportation engineers) have no desire or intention of slowing traffic.......
We seem to have gotten past the traditional arm wrestle with the engineers on this issue and we have some good examples. Maybe the size of the centres we are working with are smaller than you may be referring to but provided a state road is not involved, we do not have a problem with designing for slowing traffic. Our engineers listen to us on our own roads.

We have a good four lane example nearby - the travelling lane next to the parking is like a browsing lane - cars move slowly waiting to find a park, allowing safe entry and egress to spaces. The second lane (next to the median) moves without restriction but slowly because there is a roundabout at each end of the block, a pedestrian crossing mid-block and a bus stop (both sides of road) mid-block. I will try to take a pic. or two to describe it better.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
Cardinal said:
The problem with on-street parking, whether parallel, angled, or perpendicular, is that we (or at least mostly the transportation engineers) have no desire or intention of slowing traffic. Which do you want to prioritize, moving traffic quickly, or character and economic vitality?
-More and more cities are putting in traffic calming devices to slow traffic, such as roundabouts and traffic circles. In Buffalo they restored 2 original roundabouts on Richmond Street. Really solved the speeding problem because of timed signals and is asthetically pleasing.
-You mentioned the widening of roads and I know of one community organization here, Forever Elmwood had the street narrowed to promote the slowing of traffic, as well as pedestrian foot traffic.
-I want character and economic development!
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
"Roundabouts" would never work here. All anyone thinks of when you describe them are the Jersey Circles, and what a nightmare they are, I got lost in one once.
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
Jeff said:
"Roundabouts" would never work here. All anyone thinks of when you describe them are the Jersey Circles, and what a nightmare they are, I got lost in one once.
Everyone says that about roundabouts when they first encounter or suggest them. After a while, people get used to them and then start liking them. Same things I heard about putting them into a suburb of Green Bay. Now they are planning more of them.
 

otterpop

Cyburbian
Messages
6,655
Points
28
Our county doesn't have parking space standard, but when I worked in Ketchikan, Alaska, we had a 9 by 20 foot requirement and that seemed to be fine.
 

Rem

Cyburbian
Messages
1,524
Points
23
Angle Parking Solution

I've gotten around to loading the pictures of (IMO) a successful use of angle parking in a commercial centre.

These pics are of Warners Bay. The road carries about 20,000 vehicles a day (2001 count). Through traffic tends to use the centre two lanes and parking browsers, the outside two lanes.

First photo shows the entry to the commercial centre - announced by the roundabout. Retail/commercial on the left, and a narrow foreshore park and the Lake on the right.

1524Warners_Bay1Lite.jpg

This photo I am standing on the roundabout from pic 1, looking along the angle parking on the left. Note the white car backing into a space and the mid block pedestrian crossing.
1524Warners_Bay2Lite.jpg

In this pic I am standing on the footpath (sidewalk) to give you a view of the cars angle parked from behind. There is some etiquette needed for drivers not to sit in their parked cars with the engine running - it makes the footpath less comfortable for diners in the cafes that occur along here. This can be an issue on hot days when Boy wants to run the air conditioner while Girl is in the shop.;)
1524Warners_Bay4Lite.jpg
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
I have seen back-in for angled parking. I thought it was strange, but it does allow better views when leaving. Reverse lights are pretty easy for the car behind you to see when you want to park.
 

boiker

Cyburbian
Messages
3,890
Points
26
back in parking

a lot of communities just wont let you because of parking meters and the like.


back to the main topic, i tend to see that 9x18.5 is a standard.
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
Messages
1,264
Points
22
Re: back in parking

boiker said:
a lot of communities just wont let you because of parking meters and the like.
Rationle?
The spaces I have seen were metered. Was not possible to back into it.
 

boiker

Cyburbian
Messages
3,890
Points
26
Re: Re: back in parking

ludes98 said:
Rationle?
The spaces I have seen were metered. Was not possible to back into it.
my guess is: to make it easier for meter-maids to stick tickets in your windshield. We don't want them to walk ALL the way around the car. :)
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
2.6m x 5.9m. We give on the aisle width though - only require 5.5m. Often, we will allow a certain percentage of spaces under the minimum, provided they are signed for "small cars".
 
Messages
44
Points
2
Mixed reviews here, some communities have decided 10' by 20' is the minimum while others have done 9' by 20' and 9' by 19'. We have a few communities updating zoning codes so that may change.
 

Streck

Cyburbian
Messages
608
Points
18
Our spaces are 10 ft by 20 ft.

The 10 ft works great!

The 20 ft is excessive.
Keep in mind that the minimum space was figured for parking garages where you have a wall at the end, or spaces back up to each other. The entire space must be available for the car. On outsid lanes, cars drive up to the curb and "hang over" the grass or curb. An 18 ft long car with a 2 ft hang over in a 20 ft space generates 4 ft of unused space at the rear. An equal 4 ft of space is generated on the other side of a double loaded lane. This makes the lane 8 ft wider than it needs to be.

When interior spaces face adjacent spaces on the next row, there can be no "over-hang." The above only works on end aisles or interior isles with a landscaping row.

A Saturn has a 24 inch "over hang" from the tire at a curb to the front bumper and 14 inches from tire to the rear bumper.

A Dodge Intrepid has a 28 inch over hang in the front and a 33 inch overhang in the rear.

Backing an Intrepid into a space at a sidewalk could take up 33 inches of paved sidewalk. Not good.

In my opinion we should reduce our spaces to 16 ft length on outside lanes to reduce the amount of impervious surface, and be less costly for a developer to build.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
I don't really see the advantage to them backing in. It just means they can rip out a lot faster. They should be able to see oncoming traffic through their rearview mirror if they're in forward, so I don't see where the safety advantage is.

For bikers, if the cars are in forward, they have a chance to see the break lights come on when the person turns the car on, and know to avoid it. If they're in backwards, the driver can't see the biker very well because they're out the passenger side window, and the biker dosen't get the signal from the break lights.

Ether way prevents dooring of bikers, though, which is a plus.
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
jordanb said:
I don't really see the advantage to them backing in.
A few advantages of backing in

1) Easier and safer to load trunk of car with purchases. (on street only)
2) Easier to boost the car if the battery craps out from the cold. (like mine almost did today)
 
Messages
12
Points
1
Parkng Dimensions

Mark said:
Our off street parking space size requirement is 9.5 ft. x 19 ft., for surface parking.

Planning Commission is talking about reducing the size to 9 ft. x 19 ft.

Any experience out there regarding 9 footers. Is it too skinny?

I currently work for a county that has 8.5 x 20, which I am pushing to change, because I feel it is too narrow. I have worked in other areas where 9 x 19 was the requirement, with the option to shrink the length to 17.5 if there is ample room for a 1.5 foot overhang of the bumber. I personally like this idea, because it effectively reduces the amount of impervious surface area, and tends to lessen the parking lot setback variation requested.
 

garethace

Cyburbian
Messages
137
Points
6
Do you guys have guidelines like these?

This is something I grabbed from an Irish County Development Plan... considering that we are getting quite car dependent here in Ireland too, I was just wondering how do our numbers stack up against that which you would use.... for instance, how many car parking spaces per pitch and putt hole would you guys normally specify? :)



Land Use Parking Requirements
Houses 2 per Dwelling
Apartments/Flats 1.25 - 2 per Unit
Shops 1 per 25m2 gross floor space within speed limit
1.5 per 25m2 gross floor space outside speed
limit
Offices 1 per 30m2 gross floor space within speed limit
1.5 per 30m2 gross floor space outside speed
limit
Financial Institutions 1 per 20 m2 gross floor space
Industry 1 per 30 m2 gross floor space or 1 per 4no.
employees, whichever is greater
Warehousing 1 per 40 m2 gross floor space or 1 per 4no.
employees, whichever is greater
Theatre, Cinema 1 per 5 seats
Stadia, Churches 1 per 5 seats
Hotels and Bed and Breakfast acommodation
Note: Bars, dancing areas and function
rooms to be calculated seperately
1 per 2 bedrooms within speed limit
1 per bedroom outside speed limit
Bars and Lounges
Note: Dancing areas, acommodation and
function rooms to be calculated seperately
1 per 7 m2 gross floor space within speed limit
2 per 7 m2 gross floor space outside speed limit
Bars and Lounges with Dance Areas, Dance
halls and Function Rooms
1.5 per 7 m2 gross floor space within speed
limit
3 per 7 m2 gross floor space outside speed limit
Restaurants 1 per 7 m2 gross floor space within speed limit
2 per 7 m2 gross floor space outside speed limit
Schools 1 per classroom plus sufficient bus circulation
and off-loading facilities to cater for schoolgoing
population
Golf and Pitch and Putt Courses 2 per hole
Golf Driving Range 1 per bay
Bowling Alley
Note: Bars, restaurants and other facilites
to be calculated seperately
1 per lane
Hospitals 1.5 per bed
Nursing homes 1 per 3 bedrooms
Surgeries 3 per consulting room
Take away 6 per unit
Community hall/Sports Club 2 per 90 m2 gross floor space plus 2%
Cash and Carry Outlets 2 per 90 m2 plus adequate loading/unloading
and circulation facilities for lorries
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,521
Points
69
From a code I wrote a while ago.

406.5.1 Aisle and curb cut dimensions

Access drives and curb cuts must have the following widths at the gutter line, plus β‰₯1’ (.3 m) additional clearance on each side of a vertical obstruction β‰₯0.5 (15cm) tall:

Use / spaces / driveway width
Residential / 6 or less / β‰₯8’ (2.45m)
Residential / 7 or more / 12’-24’ (3.7m-7.4m) 1 way, 20’-40’ (6.1m-12.2m) 2 way
Nonresidential / 24 or less / 12’-24’ (3.7m-7.4m) 1 way, 20’-40’ (6.1m-12.2m) 2 way
Nonresidential / 25 or more / 15’-30’ (4.6m-9.2m) 1 way, 26’-52’ (8m-16m) 2 way

Aisles must have these minimum widths:

Parking angle / aisle width
0Β°: parallel to aisle / β‰₯12’ (3.7m) 1 way, β‰₯20’ (6.1m) 2 way
30Β° / β‰₯11’ (3.4m) 1 way, β‰₯20’ (6.1m) 2 way
45Β° / β‰₯13’ (4m) 1 way, β‰₯21’ (6.4m) 2 way
60Β° / β‰₯18’ (5.5m) 1 way, β‰₯23’ (7m) 2 way
90Β° / β‰₯24’ (7.3m)

[snip]

406.7 Parking and loading space bulk requirements

406.7.1 Parking space dimensions

Parking spaces must have the following dimensions:

Type of space / minimum rectangular dimensions (length x width)
Automobile space (perpendicular or angled to the aisle) / 9’ x 18’ (2.75m x 5.5 m)
Automobile space (parallel to the aisle) / 9’ x 23’ (2.75m x 7m)
Handicapped parking space / 9’ x 18’ (2.75 x 5.5m), plus an 8’ x 18’ (2.5 m x 5.5 m) usable loading area to the right side.
Motorcycle space / 4.5’ x 9’ (1.4m x 2.75m).
Bicycle space / Bicycle spaces are a stationary object where a user can secure both wheels and the frame of the bicycle with a 6’ (2m) cable and lock. The stationary object may be a freestanding bicycle rack, a wall-mounted bracket; an enclosed bicycle locker; a three point bicycle rack; or a fenced, covered, locked or guarded bicycle storage area.
Off-street loading space / 12’ x 25’ (3.7m x 6.1m)
 
Messages
3,690
Points
27
Wow. We're 8'x18'.

As for roundabouts - NYSDOT is HUGE on roundabouts recently - our town has 2 coming in within just the next 3 years.
 
Messages
6
Points
0
Cars only

As a citizen, I'd sure like to see some off-street parking spaces reserved for cars only, or maybe cars & minivans, but barring trucks and SUVs. It can be scary backing a normal-sized car out of a space between two monster SUVs, you can't see anything for quite awhile.

Instead, at our public library, there are some prime spaces marked for LARGE vehicles only, so they don't have to go into the multi-story parking garage. How outrageous! It's bad enough these things hog up more space and gasoline, but in return they get some of the best parking spaces. Sigh.
 

Doitnow

Cyburbian
Messages
500
Points
16
The car space we reserve is 20 sq mtrs. Thats a bay of 3.3m x 6m ( or 10 by 20).

These new SUVS can't be parked in many of the underground parking areas out here as the ramp slope is too steep and the head clearance too less. Thats 'not foresightful planning' and 'bad building rule enforcement.'
 

ssnyderjr

Cyburbian
Messages
716
Points
20
Parking Things

Our typical "straight-in" space is 9' x 19'.
We do not allow back-in parking in a few of our public lots due to our tourists from Michigan, who are only required to have 1 license plate, which is placed on the rear of their car. Therefore, if a vehicle were backed into a space, especially along a building, it would be hard, if not impossible for police to enforce any parking regulations (via acquiring plate numbers, etc.).
I am looking at a standard motorcycle parking space dimensions for our downtown, and have found that 5 x 9 is about the going rate.
 

Otis

Cyburbian
Messages
5,169
Points
29
We have 9'x20' for a "standard" space, and 8'x16' for a "compact" space (we allow up to 50% compact -- and, yes, it's unenforcable).

I am opposed to enlarging the size of the "standard" space. Why encourage the big cars? Let the Tahoes and the F-350's with duallies reap the consequences of their gas-guzzlers.

As for Hummers, they are their own punishment.
 

The One

Cyburbian
Messages
8,287
Points
29
well....

Cardinal said:
Nice, but... people back into parking stalls? That isn't even legal here.
Maybe it should be.....if anyplace does it....shouldn't Boulder be doing it....?? ;)

Places that had 45 degree back in parking in place in 2004:
Seattle
Washington DC
Delaware- Not sure where? DDOT ok?
Montreal
Pottstown, Pennsylvania
see:
www.pspe.org/delco/nawn.pdf

According to a recent seminar on this issue.

If anyone has pictures of where this is in place, that would be great :p I'm curious to see if these are working on collector roads....AADT/speeds?

The real problem in my mind is that you'll always have some sightless octogenarion, moron or other confused individuals trying to pull in, instead of back in.... :-c :-o ;) But that's not really a problem, you just ticket them for $100 each for creating an unsafe traffic sittuation (them trying to back out into traffic :-c ) :cool:
 

RandomPlanner

Cyburbian
Messages
1,712
Points
24
Dreaming...dreaming...

So the question is...
With gas prices as they are, we're seeing SUV sales plummeting and potential hybrid owners have to be placed on a waiting list. Does this mean people are getting smarter (and possibly more eco-friendly - even if by accident) and eventually, we'll have way too much parking - especially considering all people that will be carpooling/walking/biking/mass-transitting around - and we can shrink the space sizes and cut parking lots in half? :-D
 

dfixell

Member
Messages
1
Points
0
We do however insist on rear to kerb - ie. so you back in and drive out. Backing in should be safer because you have just traversed the road you back over to get into your space. Using your mirrors to reverse should ensure there are no surprises. Provided you drive out slowly there should be no threat to bicycles when leaving either.
Would it be possible to provide a drawing or photo of how this works. Is the idea, in essence, to pass the space and then back in at an "upward" angle (and what angle do you utilize?). Also, your on-street parallel parking standards seem quite short -- do you suffer the plague of massive SUV's that we have in America?
 

Streck

Cyburbian
Messages
608
Points
18
We have trouble with people driving forward into a parking space, and you want people not to just back out of a place they are already in, but to back INTO a space between two cars??? While traffic has to wait for them to get it right??? Ah, the pressure!!! Ah, the road rage!! I can feel it now.

I know, this is for existing downtown areas where there has to be on-street parking.

At least with parallel parking, someone has now invented a car with automatic parallel parking!
 
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