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Patriot vs. HOA

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
Defiant flag flier George Andres once again is facing the prospect of losing his Jupiter home after a Palm Beach County judge ruled Wednesday that his homeowners association could go forward with a foreclosure sale next month to collect legal fees.

Andres, a Marine veteran, said he was worried about losing his home, but he vowed to appeal the latest ruling in a legal saga that has spanned more than two years....


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/search/sfl-pflag11sep11,0,7562216.story

The man bought a home in a home-owners association (HOA) area voluntarily. He knew what he was getting into. He chose to join a group of people with pre-established rules. He has legal means to change the rules from within. If he had gone to the association and requested a rule change he may well have gotten it changed. But instead he chose to confront the rule and thus the rest of the HOA members. Now he seems surprised he may lose his home.

I'm all for flying the US flag. I fly the US flag on my home everyday. But if I lived in a HOA with that restriction I'd either obey the rule, petition for a rule change or move. This is self-inflicted stupidity.
B-)
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Personally, I think HOA's are gay, sorry gays. But, buyer beware. You should know what you are getting into.

This is the same thing that happened in NJ this summer, but it was over a POW flag. A bunch of bikers simply hung around the neighborhood until the guy was allowed to keep his flag though.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
el Guapo said:
[BI'm all for flying the US flag. I fly the US flag on my home everyday. But if I lived in a HOA with that restriction I'd either obey the rule, petition for a rule change or move. This is self-inflicted stupidity.
B-) [/B]
Yes and no. The HOA should have also had the sense to realize that the rule is offensive, and changed it on their own. Yes, Andres is a bit of a fool, but the HOA certainly looks no better.
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
Re: Re: Patriot vs. HOA

I keep hearing about HOA's and thier issues. My question is this, how can a HOA place a restriction on something that would be considered free speach. As I understand it, HOA agreements, covenants, and stipulations do not overide or take precedent over established legal law? Please explain :/
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
Here is how they can restrict free speech. When you buy property that is in a HOA you do so willingly and you agree to abide by the covenants when you sign the contract agreeing to purchase said property.

Can you put up a sign that says "Screw Bush" when you live on an Army base? No because you agreed to limit your rights when you signed up of your own accord. Same thing. You agreed to it. When the cops arrest you, you can sing even though you have the right to remain silent.

If the HOA had been all patriots that demanded residents fly a flag, and it said so in the HOA paperwork, and Mr Berkeley Liberal had taken his flag down to protest the war I would argue the same point.

This is all SELF INFLICTED.

PEOPLE AGREE TO SOMETHING - CHANGE THEIR MINDS AND THEN EXPECT THE WORLD TO ADJUST TO THEM - WRONG!

It makes no difference the man was
 

SGB

Cyburbian
Messages
3,388
Points
26
Since HOA are not government bodies, they are not bound to protect the first amendment rights of their property owners.

Sort of like why W**-M*** or malls can kick you off their property for distributing fliers or where what they call offensive clothing without permission.
 

SGB

Cyburbian
Messages
3,388
Points
26
Re: Re: Patriot vs. HOA

Cardinal said:
The HOA should have also had the sense to realize that the rule is offensive, and changed it on their own. Yes, Andres is a bit of a fool, but the HOA certainly looks no better.
This begs the question: Do property values in HOA communities go down after the adverse publicity brought on by cases such as this?
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
el Guapo said:
This is all SELF INFLICTED.

PEOPLE AGREE TO SOMETHING - CHANGE THEIR MINDS AND THEN EXPECT THE WORLD TO ADJUST TO THEM - WRONG!
easy man, I was only asking a question for purely informational purposes. I do't know enough about them to have a solid opinion on them one way or the other, yet. :)
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
I'm easy, easy like Sunday morning.

I'm not wacked at you. Hell, I like you - Really.

I'm just pissed at folks that think that if it has to do with a flag no common sense should apply. The rabid pats give us thinking pats a bad name.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
Right on EG. Wow. wait. I agreed with you. Is this right? Oh wait again. Yeah. OK. I do that all the time. Now where did I put that lithium...
 

biscuit

Cyburbian
Messages
3,904
Points
25
Couldn't agree with you more Guap...crap, does this mean Cyburbia is slowly turning me into a conservative? :-c

I personally dislike most HOA's and would not choose to live in a neighborhood with one, because I know that I have a legal obligation to abide by their rules. I almost feel sorry for the man but, in reality, this is all Andres fault. He knew what he was getting into when he signed on the dotted line.
 
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SW MI Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,194
Points
26
Re: Re: Patriot vs. HOA

Cardinal said:
Yes and no. The HOA should have also had the sense to realize that the rule is offensive, and changed it on their own. Yes, Andres is a bit of a fool, but the HOA certainly looks no better.
Yah, but who is going to determine what is offensive or not. You could point to a few zoning ordinances and say they are offensive to somebody. What - no cars allowed on lawns - that's discriminating against those people that can't afford a garage. ((heard that one at City Council about a year ago)).

I agree with Guap - he knew what he was getting into. Any hardship was self created.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
The HOA is a contract between the owner and the association. I don't like HOA's, but, when you agree to buy the house, you sign a contract and should be willing to abide by the contract you signed.

My general advice to developers is to develop in a way that doesn't require a HOA. Even townhouses can be designed without HOA's.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Wulf9 said:
My general advice to developers is to develop in a way that doesn't require a HOA. Even townhouses can be designed without HOA's.

But most developers are required to provide open space. Unless its pristine park land, and the municipality wants it, the open space is usually cared for by an HOA.

Also, alot of developments occur in areas where there are no services such as trash pickup, snow plows, etc. Again, cared for by an HOA. I've even heard of cable bills for the whole devlopment being taken care of by an HOA.

In some larger developments, HOAs are god. And in your typical suburban nightmare, you've really made your mark on the world when you get to be president of the HOA ;)
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,549
Points
25
I agree with El Guapo.

Pepople always yell that their free speech is being infringed upon whenever something like this happens. However, freedom of speech is limited. When you bought into the condo/hoa you agreed that you would follow certain rules. There was this case in Milwaukee about a lady who moved in and bought a dog that was bigger than the condo association allows. She tried to persuade the ass'n to change the rules, but they refused. Then she got a lawyer who has that she suffered from depression and needed the dog to help with that. She claimed they were discriminating against her based on her disability. I lost track after that.

Why people BUY homes in areas where others can decide what you can and can't do on/with your own property is beyond me.
 

dms

Messages
14
Points
1
Maybe the flag waver is not totally wrong. It really depends on what the HOA contract says and how things are defined - the devil is in the details. Flags are generally some means of showing your patriotism, but there are times when we all know that flags over a commercial property is more a statement of notice me (and the business) than any real patriotic fervor.... if they were really patriotic and honored the flag and those people who served, the rules of the flag display would be followed and the flags would be kept in good repair.

In the HOA do they allow for bunny flags or St Patrick's Day flags ? Those cutesy special event flags ?

The issue comes down to floowing rules, or a statement of expression and protection of by the First Amendment.

I am not in favor of flags being used to highlight commercial properties, but a flag on personal property... if tht is what you need to feel patriotic or what you need to prove your loyalty.. OK.
 

Otis

Cyburbian
Messages
5,169
Points
29
biscuit said:
this is all Andres fault.
I thought it was san anrres fault.

Anyway, its easy to write hoa rules that are limited in scope, such as to rules about the common open space only.

But there are some that do things such as prohibit pickup trucks, others that ban clotheslines (aka solar clothes driers). I repeat my rule: don't buy into a hoa.
 

Otis

Cyburbian
Messages
5,169
Points
29
Rich Townsend said:
I thought it was san anrres fault.
Wait, I remember now. It goes proofread first, and then post, right? See, it was supposed to be reference to the San Andreas fault, and really funny.
 

Rem

Cyburbian
Messages
1,523
Points
23
DMS said:
Maybe the flag waver is not totally wrong. It really depends on what the HOA contract says and how things are defined - the devil is in the details.
I think this defence only works to the point where things started coming down around his ears. Then he should have realised his interpretation was askew and taken eG's change from within or move approach.
 
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