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Streets / roads Pedestrian crosswalk bump out/bulb out designs - examples

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,983
Points
49
Does anyone have a good photo of a mid-block crossing with a bulb out in a downtown setting? I can not find one anywhere.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,983
Points
49
something like this
Close, but without the median. I am proposing one in our downtown. It is a state road, two way traffic (one lane each direction) and parallel parking on street parking on both sides.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,288
Points
34
Close, but without the median. I am proposing one in our downtown. It is a state road, two way traffic (one lane each direction) and parallel parking on street parking on both sides.
Arcadia, CA has a good one in their downtown, but also with a median.
 

arcplans

As Featured in "High Times"
Messages
6,628
Points
32
Does anyone have a good photo of a mid-block crossing with a bulb out in a downtown setting? I can not find one anywhere.


 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
10,367
Points
43
Not exactly mid-block but here's one in our downtown where they took away a couple parallel parking spots to use that space for the curb extensions. It does have a median, but it's a pretty small one.


1587664307415.png
 

NHPlanner

A shadow of my former self
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
9,927
Points
40
Does anyone have a good photo of a mid-block crossing with a bulb out in a downtown setting? I can not find one anywhere.
My hometown has done a complete redesign of Main St, including several bumpouts. The project entailed taking a 4 lane street and going to 2 lanes with revised parking and pedestrian amenities.



Project website with a couple images: https://www.mjinc.com/projects/17842_02

Video with a drone shot of the northern end of the project including bumpouts:
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
13,693
Points
54
My hometown has done a complete redesign of Main St, including several bumpouts. The project entailed taking a 4 lane street and going to 2 lanes with revised parking and pedestrian amenities.



Project website with a couple images: https://www.mjinc.com/projects/17842_02
I like the center lane delivery parking area(s). That's a very pragmatic and sensible operational adaption. Plus, the parallel accessible space in the immediate foreground is nice too.

I'm sending this to my Mayor and City Engineer as a 'concrete' ( ;) ) example as we could incorporate a lot of this in our downtown district.
 
Last edited:

Streck

Cyburbian
Messages
608
Points
18
I'm sorry, but I just can't go along with this 1940's concept of quaint shopping conditions.

Look at the trucks unloading in the middle of the street - hazardous, slows traffic down, and poor delivery conditions when raining or icy!
Look at other vehicles angle parking and which have to back into traffic - both hazardous and slows down traffic.
What about the garbage and trash trucks where do they make pick-ups? And where do the garbage cans wait for pick-up - by the front door?
And a lot of city money was spent trying to make parking improvements, yet traffic is immensely slowed down - and crosstown traffic is slowed down terribly!

IMHO, what should happen is that the Zoning Ordinance should be revised so that it requires off-street parking in an interior "courtyard" and allows the street to be used for moving traffic, not parking cars.

In all the years of growth and decay, some of the buildings could have been purchased by the other shop owners and demolished so that there could be access to the center of the block for use in parking, utilities, deliveries, and garbage pick up. Yes, I know a lot of businesses would have to be sacrificed, but a lot of them go out of business naturally.

Some of the businesses (and their debtors) would be glad to receive some going out of business revenue. Some owners would be glad to be rid of their property. The city would be glad for the improved property taxes of the remaining successful businesses staying in business and traffic that would move efficiently.

I am thinking of one or two businesses on opposite sides of the block providing an entrance and an exit. And a lot of demolition of old excess store space to make room for much needed parking space to keep the downtown alive and vibrant - not dying for lack of shoppers.

Yeah, I know it will take a strong entrepreneur to make that happen, but today may be the opportunity with so many businesses struggling and which may not continue due to the national virus. The federal government may even look at this as an urban renewal opportunity.

Yes, I know there will be a lot of opposition to this concept - but look at what we have now.
 

Doohickie

Cyburbian
Messages
2,708
Points
37
Look at the trucks unloading in the middle of the street - hazardous, slows traffic down, and poor delivery conditions when raining or icy!
We've had that for years along Magnolia in Fort Worth. At first I was shocked. Then I was alarmed. Then I was outraged. Then I no longer even notice them, and no, there aren't any hazards because traffic slows down. Which for an area like that is THE POINT.
 

NHPlanner

A shadow of my former self
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
9,927
Points
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I'm sorry, but I just can't go along with this 1940's concept of quaint shopping conditions.

Look at the trucks unloading in the middle of the street - hazardous, slows traffic down, and poor delivery conditions when raining or icy!
Look at other vehicles angle parking and which have to back into traffic - both hazardous and slows down traffic.
What about the garbage and trash trucks where do they make pick-ups? And where do the garbage cans wait for pick-up - by the front door?
And a lot of city money was spent trying to make parking improvements, yet traffic is immensely slowed down - and crosstown traffic is slowed down terribly!

IMHO, what should happen is that the Zoning Ordinance should be revised so that it requires off-street parking in an interior "courtyard" and allows the street to be used for moving traffic, not parking cars.

In all the years of growth and decay, some of the buildings could have been purchased by the other shop owners and demolished so that there could be access to the center of the block for use in parking, utilities, deliveries, and garbage pick up. Yes, I know a lot of businesses would have to be sacrificed, but a lot of them go out of business naturally.

Some of the businesses (and their debtors) would be glad to receive some going out of business revenue. Some owners would be glad to be rid of their property. The city would be glad for the improved property taxes of the remaining successful businesses staying in business and traffic that would move efficiently.

I am thinking of one or two businesses on opposite sides of the block providing an entrance and an exit. And a lot of demolition of old excess store space to make room for much needed parking space to keep the downtown alive and vibrant - not dying for lack of shoppers.

Yeah, I know it will take a strong entrepreneur to make that happen, but today may be the opportunity with so many businesses struggling and which may not continue due to the national virus. The federal government may even look at this as an urban renewal opportunity.

Yes, I know there will be a lot of opposition to this concept - but look at what we have now.
No offense...but your suggestions are exactly what the City was trying to avoid, and are contrary to oh so many planning principles I don't know where to begin.

The Main St project has been a success beyond all expectations. More people are downtown than ever before, and traffic functionality has improved since moving from 4 to 2 lanes and having deliveries in the median. Before the project I estimate there was around a 40% vacancy rate in leasable space downtown...it's now less than 10%. In addition there has been a surge of upper level residential redevelopment to compliment the commercial uses on the lower levels of the buildings.

At the risk of coming across as a jerk...you can keep your non-professional planner auto oriented BS design suggestions in the southeast. We will decide our own path here where we value the input of design professionals and vigorous public discussion, leading to a final design that everyone involved could understand and support (for the most part...even the most ardent opposition on the City Council at the time now admits the project was absolutely the right thing to do).
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
12,844
Points
51
No offense...but your suggestions are exactly what the City was trying to avoid, and are contrary to oh so many planning principles I don't know where to begin.

The Main St project has been a success beyond all expectations. More people are downtown than ever before, and traffic functionality has improved since moving from 4 to 2 lanes and having deliveries in the median. Before the project I estimate there was around a 40% vacancy rate in leasable space downtown...it's now less than 10%. In addition there has been a surge of upper level residential redevelopment to compliment the commercial uses on the lower levels of the buildings.

At the risk of coming across as a jerk...you can keep your non-professional planner auto oriented BS design suggestions in the southeast.
We're doing the same here and after the first phase (of 4) businesses were coming back into downtown and buildings were being renovated...AND WE'RE IN THE SOUTHEAST! So we don't want it here either NHP (& I agree with you 98% - the minus 2% is the SE remark :ha: ).
 

Streck

Cyburbian
Messages
608
Points
18
Ha ha. Thanks for your humorous responses. Of course if X community really thought slower traffic is desirable, they could simply post lower speed limits and enforce them for more civic income. But there would still be all the other disadvantages I pointed out.

And I also realize that under Free Enterprise, any entrepreneur could have bought some of the failed properties (or the whole block) and torn them down to provide common access in an interior service lot as a benefit to all shop owners on the block.

Of course some of the shop owners could have refused to sell, so it may have taken Imminent Domain to show how it could work for the benefit of the shop owners and the city.

Thoughts?
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
15,608
Points
49
Ha ha. Thanks for your humorous responses. Of course if X community really thought slower traffic is desirable, they could simply post lower speed limits and enforce them for more civic income. But there would still be all the other disadvantages I pointed out.

And I also realize that under Free Enterprise, any entrepreneur could have bought some of the failed properties (or the whole block) and torn them down to provide common access in an interior service lot as a benefit to all shop owners on the block.

Of course some of the shop owners could have refused to sell, so it may have taken Imminent Domain to show how it could work for the benefit of the shop owners and the city.

Thoughts?
I think the main point you are missing is that removing the auto-oriented focus is the point. The slower traffic, the increased awareness you have to have when you see delivery trucks, the increased pedestrian spaces, etc, etc. Those things are all on purpose. Lowering speed limits does nothing beyond require police to write more tickets. Which generally does not create economic development or incentivize people to make changes to where they eat, shop, or live.

What changes like that (which I will admit I would love to see in my area) change are the factors for development, and generally change the perception of any area. I would seriously doubt anyone would not pick that street section when offered the other option of a 5 lane section with no on-street parking, and lots of fast moving cars.

I think what I have seen is that communities are trying to work with their fire and engineering departments, which unfortunately live in the 1960's when they think about designing streets and places, to make it all work, not just car throughput or fire truck turning radii.

If I can get a devloper to pay to redevelop a property without incentivizing them to do so, I have won. If I put that money into street scale infrastructure and I get people to come there, I have won. What NHP is showing is a successful way to get both of those things to happen AND get residential, which pays a lot more than some low quality retail that wants TONS of parking or needs 20k cars to drive by to survive.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
12,844
Points
51
Ha ha. Thanks for your humorous responses. Of course if X community really thought slower traffic is desirable, they could simply post lower speed limits and enforce them for more civic income. But there would still be all the other disadvantages I pointed out.

And I also realize that under Free Enterprise, any entrepreneur could have bought some of the failed properties (or the whole block) and torn them down to provide common access in an interior service lot as a benefit to all shop owners on the block.

Of course some of the shop owners could have refused to sell, so it may have taken Imminent Eminent Domain to show how it could work for the benefit of the shop owners and the city.

Thoughts?
There, I fixed that for you.

so much wrong with this post & not just knowing the term you thought you were using.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,535
Points
69
Curb extension and bus bulb: see page 74 (and up) in the the NYC DOT Street Design Manual.

Good picture towards the bottom of this page on the Project for Public Spaces site.

Digarams on the SF Better Streets site.

A couple of good models, if you're familiar with SketchUp.


 
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