• It's easy to sign up and post! Register with a working email address (we won't give it to others, or spam you), or through Facebook, Twitter, or a Microsoft ID. Google and LinkedIn coming soon. 🙂

People and their mindsets about the city?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Messages
318
Likes
0
Points
0
#22
True Detroit, but I am talking about suburbs right now. I know that it's in the city as well. However the goal isn't to move the ppl in the city out, it's to move the ppl in the suburbs into the city. The people in the city wouldn't have much of a choice if they had a lot of people moving in, unless they move out, but then that could be greatly discouraged in various ways.
 
Messages
6,247
Likes
0
Points
0
#23
A City and its suburbs are part of the same social ecology and share the same geography.
Lines on a map are all that separates them.
I'm willing to bet that there are parts of KC proper that were considered the suburbs 60 years ago.
Divisiveness leads to nothing but folks digging their heels in deeper to stand their ground.
You will not accomplish your goals of a revitalized KC if you go around saying that the suburbs all suck. You need to either convince new people to move to KC, and who wants to live next to suburbs that suck, OR you need to convice those in the suburbs to move more into the City proper. This will not happen if you say "YOU SUCK!"
 
Messages
643
Likes
0
Points
0
#24
I think you guys are forgetting that I've lived in the suburbs my whole life.
Which is why I can't be the only one who is wondering what exactly is your experience with cities, and how you came to your special mindset about them. Experience with megalopoli like Mexico City, Mumbai, Beijing, etc will be given more weight, as that is what I for one think of when you speak of forcing people into cities. I am but an ignorant and isolationist suburbanite and have only visited those places, not long enough to get decent opinions, so your elucidation is most welcome.
 
Messages
318
Likes
0
Points
0
#25
RTG, it's called:

Jane Jacobs
Kevin Lynch
Barcelona, Copenhagen, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Vancouver, Portland, Zurich, Rome, Strasbourg, Paris, London, Athens, Curitiba
Smart Growth
Authentic Urbanism
New Urbanism
Mass Transit and Pedestrian Oriented Streets/Cities, not Personal Automobile
Anti-Sprawl
Communitarianism

Supported by planning and development of cities thousands of years before the 1950s. "Death and Life of Great American Cities", "The Image Of the City", design of European and dense American cities.
http://www.ceds.org/
http://www.newurbannews.com/
http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/
http://smartgrowthplanning.org/
http://www.smartgrowth.org/
http://www.sprawlcity.org/
http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/tallbuildings_udg_aug17_final.pdf
 
Messages
6,247
Likes
0
Points
0
#26
hmm most New Urbanism developments ain't nothing but that pig sprawl with lipstick.
Going to Barcelona or New York won't help you do much to KC. Look at places like St Louis instead.

You seem to think that only your mindset is best. A planner can't do squat without building coallitions, listening to needs, and addressing the goals of a community.

Planners are not Popes. We listen and respond to needs we do not have the power of change, we only guide it. It is ultimately up to the citizenry and economics to decide a cities fate.

You can't have cities without people. People are more important than streets or density.
 
Messages
318
Likes
0
Points
0
#27
Also, my only connection to the city is ppl I know who live there and rap/hip hop. From reading interviews with and listening to Tech N9ne, I know it sounds funny, but I've actually learned a lot about people and neighborhoods in urban KC.
 
Messages
139
Likes
0
Points
0
#28
Also, my only connection to the city is ppl I know who live there and rap/hip hop. From reading interviews with and listening to Tech N9ne, I know it sounds funny, but I've actually learned a lot about people and neighborhoods in urban KC.
HCB, so you're extolling the virtues of living in the city, even though you've never lived there and have only learned about it from hip hop culture? That's not realistic at all. Before you start blasting suburb dwellers as racist idiots who are missing out on the good life, you should at least spend a few years living in a city.

I've lived in cities and suburbs. When I was just a suburb-dweller, I glamorized cities and was eager to live there myself--just like you, I imagine. But after experiencing city living, I know it's not for everyone. Right now, I'm in Manhattan (about as "city" as you can get in the US). I've seen more racism in cities than I ever did living in the suburbs. I see even MORE isolationism in cities than I did in the suburbs. And regardless of what you think of culture, or the type of people who live in the suburbs, or whatever--the fact is there are serious livability problems in cities--including HIGH col and LOW qol.
 

cch

Cyburbian
Messages
1,437
Likes
0
Points
0
#29
What can I learn from people whose ideas would destroy cities? THe only thing I want to ever do is stop these people from ever being considered for a significant job in planning.
I don't think you realize that the elected officials are the ones who ultimately make the decisions. Planners only serve to advise and educate. I don't know how old you are or how much life experience you have outside of the planning related literature you've been reading. But I'd be interested to see where you end up, after you're done with school and working that first planning job. I'd venture to bet that you end up back in the suburbs at some point, and you end up bowing to what your boss (the elected officials) want, this is, if you want to keep your job and not drive yourself too crazy. Heck, chances are you'll end up working for a suburb or rural area.
 

otterpop

Cyburbian
Messages
6,658
Likes
0
Points
0
#30
RTG, it's called:

Jane Jacobs
Kevin Lynch
Barcelona, Copenhagen, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Vancouver, Portland, Zurich, Rome, Strasbourg, Paris, London, Athens, Curitiba
Smart Growth
Authentic Urbanism
New Urbanism
Mass Transit and Pedestrian Oriented Streets/Cities, not Personal Automobile
Anti-Sprawl
Communitarianism

Supported by planning and development of cities thousands of years before the 1950s. "Death and Life of Great American Cities", "The Image Of the City", design of European and dense American cities.
http://www.ceds.org/
http://www.newurbannews.com/
http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/
http://smartgrowthplanning.org/
http://www.smartgrowth.org/
http://www.sprawlcity.org/
http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/tallbuildings_udg_aug17_final.pdf
Those are books and organizations with their own agenda. I am well acquainted with Jane Jacobs and Smart Growth. I work with the Smart Growth folks all the time.

You talk about what the people NEED versus what they WANT. What do you really know about what they NEED or WANT? You speak about the people as an intellectual construct, as a mass of faceless people.

When I talk about what people need or want, I am speaking about people who have come to my office or to meetings. People with names and addresses and NEEDS and WANTS. They come to us. We try to help them.

As a planner, I have to look at the Big Picture. But equally, if not more important are the John and Jane Does that come to the county for help. Personally, I get more job satisfaction from helping good people than I do on the Big Picture items.

It is the people and what we can do for them that makes my job worthwhile spending part of my life doing. Buildings, sewer lines, public parks, The City will never love you. The City will never greet you on the street with affection, or stand up at a public meeting and thank you on TV for the work you have done.

A planner serves many masters: his government(s), the residents, the laws and regulations, and his profession. It is not an easy balance. Sometimes you have to divorce your personal feeling about a matter from what you are required by your fiduciary duties.

Cities, towns, counties are nothing without the people. Not people in a general concept, but people with names who work hard every day, take their kids to school and pay their taxes (which makes a planner's pay possible).

You are a young, idealistic young man. That is how it should be and it is a good thing. Life experience will temper that idealism. It will not take it away. It may redirect it. It will, at the very least, give you greater perspective.

Books are fine tools. But do not limit yourself to only those that agree with your perspective. You quote Jacobs and Lynch. I find equal value in Aldo Leopold, Ian McHarg, Wallace Stegner and Wendell Berry. When you go to college, take advantage of a diverse education. Have fun, too.

I would advise that you not get so fired up. You will last longer. Planners can burn out quickly without perspective and an ability to leave work at the office.

Do good work. Inform. Forgive. Listen. Try to understand people. Drink a beer or two. Find good people to spend time with. Marry well. Love your kids. Laugh a lot. These are the keys to a good life. Whether Kansas City prospers or falters is a matter you can only have limited impact on.
 

vaughan

Cyburbian
Messages
336
Likes
0
Points
0
#31
HCB- First off, if you're going to be an effective communicator, you have to calm down the rhetoric. The point of websites like this are not to rail against each other and sledgehammer your opinion onto other people (though that goes on), but to have a conversation. Think about it.

Second, Jane Jacobs, while an incredible champion of urbanism, wrote her big book in what, the '60's? Planning has changed immensely in the last few decades, in no small part due to her critiques. You cannot lump planners today in with the planners of 40-50 years ago.

Third, someone else said it already a few posts back, but planners work for politicians. Planners advise, politicians decide. You can argue it should be different, but if we're to live in a democracy, this is the reality.

Fourth, you can bash the people and talk about what they want and need, but you should realize that one of the most rewarding and enjoyable parts of this job includes giving ordinary folks good information so that they can, hopefully, make good decisions. Link this up with point three and you've got the daily challenge for planners.

Fifth, a slight change in the way you look at things could help. One of the joys of planning and urbanism is looking at, thinking about, and enjoying the differences in how communities grow and change. Barcelona is going to look and function different than KC because it developed under different circumstances. KC is going to look different than NYC or Boston. Boston looks different than Seattle. Every place is different. Enjoy it. Instead of railing about politics and power, understand that they're a part of community life and start appreciating the differences. Open the mind a little bit, my friend.

Those are books and organizations with their own agenda. I am well acquainted with Jane Jacobs and Smart Growth. I work with the Smart Growth folks all the time.

You talk about what the people NEED versus what they WANT. What do you really know about what they NEED or WANT? You speak about the people as an intellectual construct, as a mass of faceless people.

When I talk about what people need or want, I am speaking about people who have come to my office or to meetings. People with names and addresses and NEEDS and WANTS. They come to us. We try to help them.

As a planner, I have to look at the Big Picture. But equally, if not more important are the John and Jane Does that come to the county for help. Personally, I get more job satisfaction from helping good people than I do on the Big Picture items.

It is the people and what we can do for them that makes my job worthwhile spending part of my life doing. Buildings, sewer lines, public parks, The City will never love you. The City will never greet you on the street with affection, or stand up at a public meeting and thank you on TV for the work you have done.

A planner serves many masters: his government(s), the residents, the laws and regulations, and his profession. It is not an easy balance. Sometimes you have to divorce your personal feeling about a matter from what you are required by your fiduciary duties.

Cities, towns, counties are nothing without the people. Not people in a general concept, but people with names who work hard every day, take their kids to school and pay their taxes (which makes a planner's pay possible).

You are a young, idealistic young man. That is how it should be and it is a good thing. Life experience will temper that idealism. It will not take it away. It may redirect it. It will, at the very least, give you greater perspective.

Books are fine tools. But do not limit yourself to only those that agree with your perspective. You quote Jacobs and Lynch. I find equal value in Aldo Leopold, Ian McHarg, Wallace Stegner and Wendell Berry. When you go to college, take advantage of a diverse education. Have fun, too.

I would advise that you not get so fired up. You will last longer. Planners can burn out quickly without perspective and an ability to leave work at the office.

Do good work. Inform. Forgive. Listen. Try to understand people. Drink a beer or two. Find good people to spend time with. Marry well. Love your kids. Laugh a lot. These are the keys to a good life. Whether Kansas City prospers or falters is a matter you can only have limited impact on.
BY the way, Otterpop- good thoughts for everyone. THanks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jaws

BANNED
Messages
1,507
Likes
0
Points
0
#32
Third, someone else said it already a few posts back, but planners work for politicians. Planners advise, politicians decide. You can argue it should be different, but if we're to live in a democracy, this is the reality.
You know what must be done then.
 

bud

Cyburbian
Messages
194
Likes
0
Points
0
#33
Follow the law?

You know what must be done then.
Quote:
Originally posted by vaughan
Third, someone else said it already a few posts back, but planners work for politicians. Planners advise, politicians decide. You can argue it should be different, but if we're to live in a democracy, this is the reality.
I think planners should remind themselves that they work for the people. Politicians in their zeal for development and economic growth usually forget the laws of orderly development - planners know and should make sure politicians and developers do not forget what orderly development is all about and why it is a matter of law which is because we live in a democracy..
 

vaughan

Cyburbian
Messages
336
Likes
0
Points
0
#34
I think planners should remind themselves that they work for the people. Politicians in their zeal for development and economic growth usually forget the laws of orderly development - planners know and should make sure politicians and developers do not forget what orderly development is all about and why it is a matter of law which is because we live in a democracy..
GIven Bud's comment, let me clarify. We ALL work for the people- politicians and planners alike. The trick for us is to find the thin line between populism (and NIMBYISM), politics, and professional judgement.
 

jaws

BANNED
Messages
1,507
Likes
0
Points
0
#35
GIven Bud's comment, let me clarify. We ALL work for the people- politicians and planners alike. The trick for us is to find the thin line between populism (and NIMBYISM), politics, and professional judgement.
If both planners and politicians work for the people, how come they see things differently? Clearly one works more for the people than the other.
 

nrschmid

Cyburbian
Messages
2,854
Likes
0
Points
0
#36
heartland, if you are really disappointed with the planning profession, i suggest you buy a couple of thousand undeveloped unincorporated acres, incorporate it, create your rules granted by your state, develop it, and show us what you have done...

Seriously though, you need to calm down, bro. I know you are very passionate about your beliefs (most of us are) but I think tact will help you out in more ways than one (I think are more understanding on this informal blog, but the general public would write you off as a planner).

I think I am a very outspoken person on this forum, but I try to not to come across as a know it all. And if anyone thinks I am, please tell me and I will tone down my comments. Listen to what people have to say. No one has the answers to everything, but you will exponentially get there one day with patience.
 

cch

Cyburbian
Messages
1,437
Likes
0
Points
0
#37
If both planners and politicians work for the people, how come they see things differently? Clearly one works more for the people than the other.
Are you forgetting that some of "the people" see things different than others. Your statement makes it sound as though all of "the people" want the same things. I may be a pessimist at times, but I'm afraid that most of the politicians work for "the people" with money and influence. I prefer to work for "the people" who care about the environment and consider themselves to be stewards of the land. But, currently I am getting paid to review subdivisions for conformity with ordinances adopted by the elected officials, and write comp plan elements (involving a lot of public input) that the elected officials will vote on whether to adopt.

But to get back on track...Each seperate suburban jurisdiction understandably wants to grow, attract taxpayers and tax-generating uses (stores and industries, etc). There is no way to convince them to stop doing this, in hopes that it will force more people to live in the city.
 

jaws

BANNED
Messages
1,507
Likes
0
Points
0
#38
Are you forgetting that some of "the people" see things different than others. Your statement makes it sound as though all of "the people" want the same things. I may be a pessimist at times, but I'm afraid that most of the politicians work for "the people" with money and influence. I prefer to work for "the people" who care about the environment and consider themselves to be stewards of the land.
If "the people" cannot even agree on what they want done, it makes no sense to even speak of "the people" at all. Elected politicians will just be individuals selected out of this group of squabbling "people" with their own individual idea of what the city ought to do for them.
 
Messages
608
Likes
0
Points
0
#39
Hey HeartlandCity Boy:

If you want to change the world, stop trying to convince planners and go convince the populace. Add Saul Alinsky and Kromholtz to your list. A lot of what you have listed comes from the design perspective.

If you want to be radical, you need to infiltrate the system, man. Stick it to the man, man! Overthrow the capitalist pig machine....

Oh, where was I? Oh yeah, are you for real? I think you may be playing the people on this Forum...that is my guess.
 

Gedunker

Mod
Moderator
Messages
10,332
Likes
5
Points
26
#40
Moderator note:
WARNING -- this thread is headed in the same direction as the sprawl thread. Let's stay with the topic -- perceptions of the city -- and not of each other. Get it?

Carry on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top