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Portland Expos?

plankton

Cyburbian
Messages
751
Points
21
Portland, along w No. VA, is currently making a pitch to the MLBA for the Expos. It's a very interesting debate on several different levels for people around here. Oregon has a great planning program and sound land use laws but serious state funding issues (i.e., no sales tax, rigid property tax limits, failing (or about to fail) public school system, and a prevelant anti-tax attitude). Oregonians are very outspoken about no (direct) cost to the citizenry for construction of a new baseball stadium. (This is definitiely NOT Cincinnati.) However, my sense is that most people (say, 50.1%) would support the 'Spoz if they came to town. So, you ask, who would fund construction of a new baseball stadium if the Oregonians are unwilling to foot the bill: The only fortune 500 company left here is Nike and Phil Knight (CEO) seems partial to funding the expansion of collegiate sports programs at his alma mater (UO) (have you noticed the recent rise of Duck football and basketball to national prominence?). So, he's out. I don't think the Oregon micro-breweries industry could foot the bill. So.... the latest news is that one of the local native american tribes may front the $ for a new stadium. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I kinda like the Expos. I caught a Tim Wallach home run ball while visiting Montreal in 1987. I favor a pro baseball team coming to Portland, although I'd rather see the NFL or NHL come first (Buffalo Sabres maybe?!) One thing's for sure, if the Expos end up in P-Town you will be able to stumble out of the stadium and onto light rail or a streetcar lickety-split.
 

nerudite

Cyburbian
Messages
6,544
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29
Where is the proposal to put the stadium? Is the stadium downtown next to the light rail big enough... it doesn't seem like it. Seems like it would need to go near the Rose Garden, away from downtown.

When I was living in Portland a few years ago and the Penguins were having a hard time (grrrrr Lemieux!), I was psyched because there was a lot of talk about the Penguins moving out to Portland. I always thought the NHL would make it first because they would have a monopoly on the tv viewership for the Pac NW and they already have the Rose Garden, which is hockey-friendly as seen in Winterhawks games. I don't know if Portland could really tear all of those die hard Mariners fans (and there's a lot of them in northern Oregon) away from the Seattle tv market... and that's half of what determines placement these days, sadly enough.

I remember all the Bring the MLB to Portland bumperstickers... but it just doesn't seem likely.

Not that No. Va really needs a team there either. Sheesh.
 

biscuit

Cyburbian
Messages
3,904
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25
Napptown said:
Move them to Washington DC and call them the Senators.
That's exactly what needs to be done. Although I doubt anyone in Washington would be wise enough to resurrect the hostoric Senators moniker - not cutting edge or catchy enough. After all this is the town that changed the name of their NBA team to the Wizards, one of the dumbest team names in sports today. (along with the Wild, the Stars and the Raptors, but that's another thread)

What ever happened to Charlotte? I know that voters in Winston-Salem Greensboro passed on a chance to move the Twins there a few years ago, but the rumor was that Charlotte was the next city in line to aquire a MLB team.
 

Greenescapist

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1,169
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23
"What ever happened to Charlotte? I know that voters in Winston-Salem Greensboro passed on a chance to move the Twins there a few years ago, but the rumor was that Charlotte was the next city in line to aquire a MLB team."

Well, maybe the fact that Charlotte just lost their NBA team has something to do with it.
 

Beesball

Member
Messages
8
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0
Please, not Portland and certainly not NoVA. Baseball is, and through its history always has been, an urban sport. It works best when played in cities. Oh, and let's not forget that DC is somewhere near the top of the list of disposable household income.

But let's not name them the senators...weren't the first two failures (now the Twins and Rangers, respectively) enough to permanently retire that name?
 

gkmo62u

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1,046
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23
Baseball belongs in downtown dc, though Arlington can be urban and offer views of the city.

But I keep telling myself that the only way Peter Angelos doesn't make a stink is if it moves further into NVA--

The Portland thing to me is a joke.

And I don't mind the Senators, but I appreciate the failed baggage it comes with.
 

Beesball

Member
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8
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0
Yes, it must be the threat of a DC franchise that's keeping people away from Camden Yards these days. That MUST be the reason...
 

japrovo

Member
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103
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6
Hold on just a second---

Beesball said:
Please, not Portland and certainly not NoVA. Baseball is, and through its history always has been, an urban sport.

I'll admit having seen more baseball movies than games but are you saying Portland isn't urban? Is our downtown too clean? Is our light rail too cute? From what I read Mayor Williams has proposed to outbid everyone else at this point anyway.
 

bestnightmare

Cyburbian
Messages
61
Points
4
give it to portland

i live in washington, and i'm - sadly - an orioles fan, that'll never change even if they give washington a team.

a baseball stadium in northern virginia will be a white elephant. marylanders and other "washington area" residents who are closer in physical and/or cultural proximity to baltimore will remain orioles fans. i would never go to a "washington" baseball game if the stadium is near the sprinfield internchange or dulles airport.
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
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23
Never is a long time bestnightmare. You keep driving up 95 at 530 to get to a 700 game. And still be a half hour late.
 

Beesball

Member
Messages
8
Points
0
Whoops. My apologies to Portland. It's a wonderful city, and it certainly is urban--I had no intention of implying otherwise.

Having said that, it shouldn't be a major league town--certainly not before DC. For me (grew up an Orioles fan, but am not one thanks to the current owner), it's more than just the economics. The national pastime ought to be played in the Nation's Capital.
 

Repo Man

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Messages
2,550
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24
The Expos belong in DC. Peter Angelos is a blowhard who is so scared of losing his baseball monopoly in the area that he is fighting this tooth and nail. Chicago has two teams, LA esentially has two teams, The Bay Area has two also, same with New York. This will not impact the O's in any significant manner.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
28
The only way baseball will work in the DC area would be to have it in DC, prob the South Cap. Street location. The Dulles folks are on crack if they think it will work there. Of course I could care less if we have baseball here.

And yes I lived in Greensboro during that push for baseball and the idea of having it there was a JOKE. I was quite happy to vote it down along with something like 75% of the population.
 

Cirrus

Cyburbian
Messages
303
Points
11
^
Not big enough for baseball. With 81 home dates a season baseball is the most difficult sport for a city to support. Indi only has to fill a stadium 8 times a year to support the Colts.

Norfolk, Vegas, Charlotte, Connecticut, San Antonio, Indianapolis and Northern Virginia sans MD and DC are all too small to support a major league baseball team. At 2.5 million Portland would be a serious gamble (that seems to be the minimum threshold, with some success and some failure). No, DC, with it's 5 million, is the only viable US city... add the fact that Baltimore alone, without any support from the Washington market, is still bigger than Portland, and it's pretty obvious Angelos is in a pretty weak position.

Monterrey, MX and San Juan, PR are wild cards. Otherwise the 'spos go to DC.
 

Agcrisco

Cyburbian
Messages
34
Points
2
ALL of he details in why the investment in Portland is a wise, is located the Oregonbaseball link in my privious post. Portlands population size is grossly underestimated to the average person. Portland has a larger MSA than many major US cities who have football, baseball, and hockey teams.
 

Cirrus

Cyburbian
Messages
303
Points
11
Agcrisco said:
Portland has a larger MSA than many major US cities who have football, baseball, and hockey teams.
... But still smaller than Baltimore alone and half the size of Washington alone. Portland can not escape that fact.
 

Agcrisco

Cyburbian
Messages
34
Points
2
Please explore the link above...

When you speak of viability, its not just the numbers. Yes they are very important, but its because of civic pride that LA dosent have a football team. You can have a billion people who live in a city and it is possible for half of them or larger not to want to get involved in city activities such as baseball. The Green Bay Packers and the Denver Broncos are excellent examples. If youre aruing about numbers, LA should theoritically not only have football team, but have had a thriving one for decades.

....Please explore the link above
 

boiker

Cyburbian
Messages
3,890
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26
metro size along does not dictate the success of a sports franchise. It falls back to fan base. Is there a fan base that is willing to spend money to attend these games?

Example:
Green Bay, WI MSA - pop. 226,778
Lambau Field Capacity - 71,000 (Approx.).
Average Attendance - Sold out every game.

Ok, comparing Football to Baseball is apples to oranges. But to illustrate a point. The MSA is small, the fan support is tremendous with fans often traveling 6 hours or more to attend a game. In this modern era, if Green Bay ever pursued a football franchise, they would be laughed out of contention.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Montreal, Quebec MSA - pop. 3,426,350
Olympic Stadium - 46,500
Average Attendance - Under 8,000 per game.

In Montreal, they once had fabulous fan support. The support has been lost with the awful treatment the franchise has dealt with from the "interim Commish" Selig. Since '94, they have never been a strong draw despite playing baseball in one of Canada's largest Markets. Tickets are also DIRT cheap.

Chicago, IL MSA - pop 8,500,000 (Approx.).

US Cellular Field Capactiy - 42,000 (Approx.).
Average Attendance - 18,000

Wrigley Field Capacity - 40,000 (Approx).
Average Attendance - 38,000

In Chicago, The MSA is large enough to support two baseball teams. One consistantly outdraws the other due to none other than..........fan support and marketing. The Sox have been a marketing failure. Ownership failed. The White Sox have a tremendous fan base but refuse to support the ownership with his past money grubbing and lack of desire to put together a winning team. The current owner also orchestrated the demolition of Old Comiskey Park and swindeld the state of Illinois into completly financing the new stadium. This alienated his fan base.

On the other side of town, there has been a marketing achievement. Wrigely is marketed as a fun, fan and tourist friendly facility. They promote good times, good drinking, and attractive fans. The managed to turn a failing sports team that drew fans poorly into a failing sport team that draws fans that don't know how to pronounce baseball, let along watch and understand it. The fans pay the ticket price to be where the action is and to drink heavily. Of late, the cubs have been improving their roster which will do nothing but esure to the profitability of the franchise.

If support in Portland metro.....and the surrounding areas is now strong (as demonstrated on the weblink) and marketing is done properly. The franchise cannot fail in Portland.

Go Ask Tampa Bay why they can't draw even with a substantial "market". They'll answer, Poor marketing and fan relations, lack-luster game facilities, and poor player performance.

Go ask the Baltimore why they do draw... they answer.. good marketing and fan relations, excellent fame facilities and although not always overall good player performance..they had likeable players (i.e. Cal Ripkin) that the fans could relate to.
 

Agcrisco

Cyburbian
Messages
34
Points
2
Civic pride is a very power thing. I find it very interesting how the LA area and large portions of Florida are related in how there is a low level, and how areas such as Denver and the Wisconsin area rated so high. If Portland had the charecteristics of such low civic pride, it would undoubtably be a terrible business decision BASED ON aruements such as the larger DC area.

Hands down, Portland rates extreamly high in civic pride. Powells Books is an excellent example. Portlanders would rather visit a local business than Borders. More recently, the day before a new Starbucks opened in Portland, someone destroyed their windows (this is ofcourse a bad thing, but its more likely to happen in Portland, than Seattle (for this example, Starbucks originates from San Fran)

Its not exactly marketing, such as the Devil Rays. If Tampa Bay had CP equal to Portland, the team would survive regardless of how well the team is marketed (decently).

This is why business schools include such options in economics AND marketing in order to make somewhat sound business decisions. Hopfully were smart enough to work together.

You make some great points about civic pride as well. One of the greatest travisites done to the American people is the distruction of Ebbets Field. Theres no doubt that if it were still here, it would be the greatest baseball park, which in tern boosts civic pride. We can go on and on about civic pride, but its also vital to econmic decisions.
 
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Cirrus

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303
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11
All right. Ignore the numbers. Civic pride is the issue.

The nation's passtime shouldn't be played in the nation's capital? What about national pride?

... and if you want to bring football in to the debate, I will have to point out that civic pride as you define it is probably why the Redskins are the most valuable team in the NFL, despite completely sucking for more than a decade.
 

Agcrisco

Cyburbian
Messages
34
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2
My point was that civic pride was not taken into issue in this forum. Portland has it, and that should be taken into account. The location of Portland has more civic pride than the location DC (per capita!) Nothing more or nothing less.
 

boiker

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3,890
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26
Cirrus said:
All right. Ignore the numbers. Civic pride is the issue.
cirrus,

I do agree that the numbers do play a part. You can't dispute that, however, I feel it would be foolish if MLB made their decision soley upon the incentive package and market size on where to locate the franchise.

DC clearly could support a baseball team but I can't rule out Portland with their apparent fan base.
 

benk928

Cyburbian
Messages
31
Points
2
the perennial underdogs

The Norfolk MSA is the largest US metro area without a single pro sports team. I'm biased, of course, but the Expos battle is more than just Portland and DC/NoVA.

www.norfolkmlb.com

-Ben
 

Rumpy Tunanator

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4,473
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25
Not one of these cities will get an MLB team. A little birdie told me that the 51st state is going to get the team..........
 

biscuit

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Rumpy Tunanator said:
Not one of these cities will get an MLB team. A little birdie told me that the 51st state is going to get the team..........
San Juan, Puerto Rico
or
Vancouver, BC, Canada ;-)
 

zman

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Messages
9,193
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30
Ramblings in response

Portland, DC, or Charlotte can have all the baseball it wants. Be careful, once the honeymoon is over, there may be about as much attendance there as the Expos have in Montreal now. I.E. my Rockies breaking attendance records and then not drawing them in now. Also, is there going to be an NHL to send a team to Portland? I mean who knows what is going to happen in the league come September when the strike, and the eventual folding of the league occurs. (just my pessimistic attitude right now, I love the NHL--GO Habs Go) I agree that the PacNorthwest should enjoy some pro puck at the NHL level, and people I know would love to see it!
 
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I would like to see the expos go to Washington. That way I could catch commuter rail from Baltimore to see my beloved NL leading St. Louis Cardinals instead of driving to Philly or to NYC.
 

JNA

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24,474
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49
I liked the analysis USA Today presented in today's edition June 30, 2004 -


With Major League Baseball's relocation committee split on whether Washington, D.C., or Northern Virginia should be the Montreal Expos' new home, a USA TODAY analysis weighing the advantages and disadvantages of the six finalists...

1. Northern Virginia (site near Dulles International Airport)

Population: 7,608,070 (Metropolitan Statistical Area, including Washington, D.C., southern Maryland and Northern Virginia).

TV market: 2,224,070 households (No. 8).

Median household income: $57,291.

Stadium proposal: A $442 million stadium as part of a 400-acre project near Dulles International Airport has been proposed. . . . Includes ownership group's $133 million contribution, which is produced by a tax on tickets and rent of the facility. This is funded during the term of the lease. No up-front sum would be required from this source. . . . Legislation in place would secure about $5 million a year in taxes.

Advantages:
* No further action from Virginia General Assembly is needed.
* Overall economic proposal is second only to Washington's.
* Site would have less attendance impact on the Baltimore Orioles than Washington.
* Loudoun County is the fastest-growing county in the USA, with the population climbing 30% from 2000 to 2003.
* Amended plans addressed concerns about traffic congestion.

Disadvantages:
* Northern Virginia doesn't have the marquee name of Washington, D.C.
* If a decision isn't made this year, legislation expires Dec. 31, 2004.
* Fans from Washington might not be attracted to a suburban site.
* Not a preferred downtown location.

2. Washington, D.C.
3. Las Vegas
4. Norfolk, Va.
5. Monterrey, Mexico
6. Portland, Ore.
 

Cirrus

Cyburbian
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303
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11
... Except for the fact that USA Today / Gannett are headquartered in Northern Virginia (Tysons Corner).
 

simulcra

Member
Messages
127
Points
6
portland was late on some stuff so automatically got put last on consideration anyway? i've been a bit out of the loop with the expo search, but that's i gathered from the oregonian. (yes, i read that even though i currently dwell in texas...)
 

PlannerGirl

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6,377
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28
Living in the DC area I cant tell you how bad many of my friends and I hate this idea-killed any plans we had to move into the City.

We can only hope some sorta road block gets thrown up to stop this nightmare-oh yes Marrion Barry is about to be on CC again!

*bangs head*
 

Rumpy Tunanator

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I read the story yesterday and people interviewed in D.C. said its funny how they'll use taxpayer dollars for this when the school system is a mess, etc.

The Mayor must of smoked some really good rock with some of the higher ups in MLB to pull off this deal;)
 

nighthawk1959

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334
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11
Btw

BTW Don't say that Charlotte is not large enough to support a MLB team. They don't know it yet. They are a world class city, just ask them.
 

plankton

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751
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21
I don't know much about the finanial ends of things, but it seems to make sense that the 'Spos will be playing in DC next year. So, what's the new team name??

My vote ;-) : Washington Freebirds
 
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Am I dreaming, or were there at least 5 more posts in this thread earlier today..? 8-!

Edit: Ok nevermind, I see what happened..
 
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