Tom R
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Remember May 4th.
- Thread starter Tom R
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el Guapo
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I do, but not the way you do - I have a slightly different perspective..
http://www.spectacle.org/996/kentr.html
http://www.spectacle.org/996/kentr.html
Tom R
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ksu
The National Guard pulled the triggers but Nixon, Governor Rhodes, KSU president White and the City of Kent Mayor caused the killings and woundings. What the article you posted said about the guardsmen was basically true. They were tired having just come from riot duty in Cleveland at a Teamster's union strike, There's no way in the world that they should have had live ammunition, they were poorly trained "weekend wariors" back then and they were probably scared.
But what it all boils down to is that no one present did anything that warrented a summary death penality . One of the students killed and a number of the wounded were going to class.
What is done is done, but what there is to remember is what can happen when a government goes overboard to put down the people's right to protest its actions.
The National Guard pulled the triggers but Nixon, Governor Rhodes, KSU president White and the City of Kent Mayor caused the killings and woundings. What the article you posted said about the guardsmen was basically true. They were tired having just come from riot duty in Cleveland at a Teamster's union strike, There's no way in the world that they should have had live ammunition, they were poorly trained "weekend wariors" back then and they were probably scared.
But what it all boils down to is that no one present did anything that warrented a summary death penality . One of the students killed and a number of the wounded were going to class.
What is done is done, but what there is to remember is what can happen when a government goes overboard to put down the people's right to protest its actions.
el Guapo
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I'm sorry some people died there. I’m sorry the freaking hippies burnt down ROTC and other buildings across the nation and were responsible for more deaths than the Guardsmen of Ohio.
I agree with all your points for the most part. However, what happened there was not something to celebrate as a cause celb. This mob full of hostile people poked a tiger and was surprised when they pulled back a stump.
There was nothing enlightened or anointed in what the students at Kent State were doing that day. The glorification of the 60's as a time of great enlightenment is disengenuious at best. The students were not the Gandhi’s of Ohio. They were - as a group – thugs. Re-writing history to suit an agenda doesn't give the Kent State Four a sacred place in the national consciousness.
How about remembering what happens when people go overboard protesting a democratically elected government. The guilt is at least 50-50. Nevertheless, because the Guard doesn’t own any stoner folk singers or hippy reporters, the appearance of the incident remains what the hippies wish it to be.
I'll leave it at that. Don't forget May Day is just around the corner.
I agree with all your points for the most part. However, what happened there was not something to celebrate as a cause celb. This mob full of hostile people poked a tiger and was surprised when they pulled back a stump.
There was nothing enlightened or anointed in what the students at Kent State were doing that day. The glorification of the 60's as a time of great enlightenment is disengenuious at best. The students were not the Gandhi’s of Ohio. They were - as a group – thugs. Re-writing history to suit an agenda doesn't give the Kent State Four a sacred place in the national consciousness.
How about remembering what happens when people go overboard protesting a democratically elected government. The guilt is at least 50-50. Nevertheless, because the Guard doesn’t own any stoner folk singers or hippy reporters, the appearance of the incident remains what the hippies wish it to be.
I'll leave it at that. Don't forget May Day is just around the corner.
Cardinal
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Of all the rememberances in May, Memorial Day seems to me to be the most significant.
I am just old enought to remember some of what was going on in the 1970's. It was not a time of peaceful love-ins. It was a time of riots and fear. The anti-war demonstrators were anything but non-violent. Campuses were often the center of violent elements of the "peace movement." Even Madison was bombed -- more than once.
Yes, remember May 4th. Think of the innocent people that were killed or wounded. Think of untrained, scared Guardsmen who snapped under the strain. Think of the paranoid and bewildered political leaders who sent the Guardsmen onto the campus. Think of the violent radicals whose actions prompted the government to put armed troops in a situation in which they should not have been.
I feel sympathy for those who were shot, those who did the shooting, and even for the campus, state, and federal leaders. I do not feel any sympathy for the leaders of the so-called "peace movement" that caused this incident.
I am just old enought to remember some of what was going on in the 1970's. It was not a time of peaceful love-ins. It was a time of riots and fear. The anti-war demonstrators were anything but non-violent. Campuses were often the center of violent elements of the "peace movement." Even Madison was bombed -- more than once.
Yes, remember May 4th. Think of the innocent people that were killed or wounded. Think of untrained, scared Guardsmen who snapped under the strain. Think of the paranoid and bewildered political leaders who sent the Guardsmen onto the campus. Think of the violent radicals whose actions prompted the government to put armed troops in a situation in which they should not have been.
I feel sympathy for those who were shot, those who did the shooting, and even for the campus, state, and federal leaders. I do not feel any sympathy for the leaders of the so-called "peace movement" that caused this incident.
Tom R
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They weren't thugs, they weren't hippies, no one knows for sure who burnt the ROTC building, they were for the most part students who began protesting Nixon's invasion of Cambodia and later the closing of the campus and the imposition of martial law with little justification. I say for the most part because Sandy Scheuer was an english major walking to class. She was killed several hundred feet from where the National Guard was when they fired. One shouldn't confuse what happened at Kent State, Jackson State or Orangeburg with the sometimes violent radicalism of that period. That would be like lumping all the VN vets with Lt. Callie i.e. not fair and inaccurate.
I understand that the younger generation doesn't have the knowledge of these and other events of the time because they did not live through them. However, I don't completely understand how one can state thet the "leaders of the so-called 'peace movement' caused the incident when the facts clearly demonstrate otherwise.
The violence that preceeded the shootings consisted of some broken windows in downtown Kent the Saturday before some of which has been attributed to some bikers with too much alcohol and the burning of the ROTC building by an as yet unidentified arsonist. The people who did these acts of violence should have been arrested and prosecuted. These acts were not grounds to declare martial law and call in the National Guard and take over the campus. If you have any evidence that the leaders of the so called "peace movement" in any way caused the shootings, please let us know. I think it will be a revelation to those who have studied these events for the past 30+ years. The violence only started when the Guard attempted to break up a peaceful demonstration against Nixon's invasion of Cambodia on the campus commons. They then put themselves into a dangerous position on the soccer fields just outside of Taylor Hall. They the retreated up the hill taking, abuse, thrown rocks and returned tear gas canisters, until they were near the top of the hill where they turned in unison and fired.
I understand that the younger generation doesn't have the knowledge of these and other events of the time because they did not live through them. However, I don't completely understand how one can state thet the "leaders of the so-called 'peace movement' caused the incident when the facts clearly demonstrate otherwise.
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Cardinal
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Tom R -
No, not all of the leaders of the peace movement were resorted to violence, and only a handful of the entire generation caused the problems. But the atmosphere of the time was truly one of fear.Riots were common throughout the time. I think it is fascinating to hear Mayor Daley's comments during the Democratic Convention of 1968. "I have given my police chief an order to shoot to kill anyone carrying a molotov cocktail." (I paraphrase.) He later denied saying it, but it happened.
Some, in the peace movement, had violence in mind. I mentioned that the campus in Madison was twice bombed. The administration building, "Old Main," in my city was burned in 1971. This was the atmosphere of the time, and ordinary people were scared. In that environment, it is perfectly understandable why the people in charge would think they might need the national guard to prevent violence.
No, not all of the leaders of the peace movement were resorted to violence, and only a handful of the entire generation caused the problems. But the atmosphere of the time was truly one of fear.Riots were common throughout the time. I think it is fascinating to hear Mayor Daley's comments during the Democratic Convention of 1968. "I have given my police chief an order to shoot to kill anyone carrying a molotov cocktail." (I paraphrase.) He later denied saying it, but it happened.
Some, in the peace movement, had violence in mind. I mentioned that the campus in Madison was twice bombed. The administration building, "Old Main," in my city was burned in 1971. This was the atmosphere of the time, and ordinary people were scared. In that environment, it is perfectly understandable why the people in charge would think they might need the national guard to prevent violence.
Tom R
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ksu
You're correct, and I in no way endorse violence, but in the case of the Kent State shootings, by far the perpretators of the violence were agents of the government. My Ex. who lived in Kent in 1970 always stated how scared the townspeople were and she would always state that it was the helicopters, armored personel carriers and the City being cordoned off that scared her. (It should be obvious that she and I could not discuss this subject calmly.) I would point out to her that it wasn't the demonstrators (or students when they were'nt the same) that flew the helicopters, manned the APCs or stood guard on the streets with M-1s. It was the Guard and its military hardware that scared her. And, it is obvious that the students were protesting another form of violence occurring in southeast Asia.
On a side note, it is generally accepted that the "unrest" during the '68 Democratic convention was a police riot.
You're correct, and I in no way endorse violence, but in the case of the Kent State shootings, by far the perpretators of the violence were agents of the government. My Ex. who lived in Kent in 1970 always stated how scared the townspeople were and she would always state that it was the helicopters, armored personel carriers and the City being cordoned off that scared her. (It should be obvious that she and I could not discuss this subject calmly.) I would point out to her that it wasn't the demonstrators (or students when they were'nt the same) that flew the helicopters, manned the APCs or stood guard on the streets with M-1s. It was the Guard and its military hardware that scared her. And, it is obvious that the students were protesting another form of violence occurring in southeast Asia.
On a side note, it is generally accepted that the "unrest" during the '68 Democratic convention was a police riot.
Rob's cousin was married on May 5. After a family function, in the car on the way home, he turns to me and says "Kel, did you know they're calling Sheri's wedding The Cinco del Mayo? What's up with that?!?" hee. thank goodness he's pretty. and doesn't read cyburbia.
Tranplanner
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I had no idea what "cinco de mayo" meant until my wife told me.KMateja said:Rob's cousin was married on May 5. After a family function, in the car on the way home, he turns to me and says "Kel, did you know they're calling Sheri's wedding The Cinco del Mayo? What's up with that?!?" hee. thank goodness he's pretty. and doesn't read cyburbia.
No hablo espanol.
Uno cerveso por fa vor...that's about it.
nerudite
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And you didn't even get that rightTranplanner said:
It's una cerveza por favor. But you got the "por" right... It's okay, I mangle French in the worst way. The only French street names I can pronounce around here coincidentally are the last names of hockey stars (Hebert, Richard, etc.)
Mastiff
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Stars, eh? Guess none are named after Maple Leafs then!nerudite said:And you didn't even get that right
It's una cerveza por favor. But you got the "por" right... It's okay, I mangle French in the worst way. The only French street names I can pronounce around here coincidentally are the last names of hockey stars (Hebert, Richard, etc.)
Mastiff
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What fun would that be? Too easy...giff57 said:Enter your birthday in your profile, and I promise we won't miss it again.
Actually, I forget it myself. Once I was at work, opened the morning paper at about 11:00, and realized I was another year older.
Lee Nellis
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Kent State Memorial Thread
For this particular topic all that was said was enough to start the memories flowing. There was no need to close the thread. I remember it so clearly. And that song. I will have to put it on the stereo at lunch.
I expect that it will be a while before something like Kent State happens again. Times have changed and we have to remind ourselves that some things have changed for the better. At the worst they'd use rubber bullets.
I know many of us had hoped that this sacrifice and others made during the Vietnam War (the one here at home) would end our national propensity for foreign adventurism. I have decided not to call it imperialism anymore. Besides that being trite, we really don't have an interest in holding the territory and (as current events make plain) do a poor job of it when we try. Maybe this time we'll learn.
Now more than ever. Amen.
For this particular topic all that was said was enough to start the memories flowing. There was no need to close the thread. I remember it so clearly. And that song. I will have to put it on the stereo at lunch.
I expect that it will be a while before something like Kent State happens again. Times have changed and we have to remind ourselves that some things have changed for the better. At the worst they'd use rubber bullets.
I know many of us had hoped that this sacrifice and others made during the Vietnam War (the one here at home) would end our national propensity for foreign adventurism. I have decided not to call it imperialism anymore. Besides that being trite, we really don't have an interest in holding the territory and (as current events make plain) do a poor job of it when we try. Maybe this time we'll learn.
Now more than ever. Amen.
Bear Up North
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May 4 is one of those days when I will always remember what I was doing when I heard the news. It was a sad time in our history. Certainly tragic because of what happened, but sad because so many people at that time were so vocal.....for or against the Viet Nam War.....and they had no penchant to listen to reasonable and articulate views from the other side.
I still feel that James Michener's account was done well and presented a factual account of what happened in Kent, OH, on that day. I would recommend to younger folk who only know about these times from quick history blurbs.....do some research, read some articles and accounts of our world in the mid-1960's through the end of the Viet Nam War. Read "The Best & The Brightest" or Michener's "Kent State". Study-up on the college kids who protested the war and how groups of them morphed into groups such the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) (a Port Huron, MI, invention) and The Weathermen.
It really was a fantastic time to come of age. May 4's events in Kent, OH, were a signal that things were changing, for the better or the worse. Thinking of the events and the "stuff" still gives me the chills.
Bear
I still feel that James Michener's account was done well and presented a factual account of what happened in Kent, OH, on that day. I would recommend to younger folk who only know about these times from quick history blurbs.....do some research, read some articles and accounts of our world in the mid-1960's through the end of the Viet Nam War. Read "The Best & The Brightest" or Michener's "Kent State". Study-up on the college kids who protested the war and how groups of them morphed into groups such the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) (a Port Huron, MI, invention) and The Weathermen.
It really was a fantastic time to come of age. May 4's events in Kent, OH, were a signal that things were changing, for the better or the worse. Thinking of the events and the "stuff" still gives me the chills.
Bear
I worked for Portage County Regional Planning Commission in about 1988. KSU is within the Portage County. Although I was 9 when the event occurred, I certainly have known about the circumstances since I can remember.
One of my jobs at PCRPC was doing the A-95/Regional Clearinghouse review of Federal grant applications. These reviews would go to a committee made up of Township elected officials for a recommendation.
Most of the county is agricultural, and it was common for tobacco juice to be spit on my office floor when reviewing lot splits with applicants. It was Ohio rural.
A KSU professer was seeking federal grant funding for research related to the event. One of the committee members made a comment I will never forget: "What the H*** is this money for, we all know those hippies got what they deserved."
I guess over the years I've experienced a lot of wierd stuff at public meetings.
One of my jobs at PCRPC was doing the A-95/Regional Clearinghouse review of Federal grant applications. These reviews would go to a committee made up of Township elected officials for a recommendation.
Most of the county is agricultural, and it was common for tobacco juice to be spit on my office floor when reviewing lot splits with applicants. It was Ohio rural.
A KSU professer was seeking federal grant funding for research related to the event. One of the committee members made a comment I will never forget: "What the H*** is this money for, we all know those hippies got what they deserved."
I guess over the years I've experienced a lot of wierd stuff at public meetings.
Tom R
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May 4th Kent State
Well, its another year and here is my annual reminder.
http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/
Well, its another year and here is my annual reminder.
http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/
Bear Up North
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Tom R.....Thanks for the annual reminders. This Bear doesn't need that reminder but as the date of the event slides farther and farther back in history it tends to blend into a "period of time" for those who study it, rather than a "specific date in history".
The shooting has been in the news this year (2007) because one of the students who was shot has been plugging his website and his finding of an audio tape that appears to have a guardsman telling the soldiers to "fire".
My neice was dating one of the survivors but dang if I can remember his name. I remember meeting him and that's all he talked about, which gave him a one-dimensional sort of personality.
Bear
The shooting has been in the news this year (2007) because one of the students who was shot has been plugging his website and his finding of an audio tape that appears to have a guardsman telling the soldiers to "fire".
My neice was dating one of the survivors but dang if I can remember his name. I remember meeting him and that's all he talked about, which gave him a one-dimensional sort of personality.
Bear
Bear Up North
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40 Years
Early next week will bring the 40th anniversary of the events at Kent State. Over the years much has been discussed about the circumstances. This Bear figured it would be an appropriate time to insert a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRX4R9cYeDQ
Bear
Early next week will bring the 40th anniversary of the events at Kent State. Over the years much has been discussed about the circumstances. This Bear figured it would be an appropriate time to insert a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRX4R9cYeDQ
Bear
I was a sophomore at Buff State in May, 1970. I remember exactly how and when I heard the news of the killings at Kent State -- just as I remember exactly how and when I heard that Kennedy was assassinated, the Murragh Building was bombed, and the Twin Towers attacked.
Buff State, like Kent State, was a working class campus where many, if not most, of the students were the first generation -- if not the very first individuals -- of their families to attend college. It wasn't a hotbed of anti-war protests like Berkley, Columbia or UB (university of Buffalo), but a school where most students were too busy pursuing their education to get involved in protests. The invasion of Camboda, after Nixon had been elected in 1968 on a pledge to end the Vietnam War, fired anti-war protests all across the country, even on campuses like Kent State and Buff State, because it expanded the war (and eventually paved the way for Pol Pot).
It wasn't anti-war violence that triggered the killings at Kent State because the protests hadn't been violent before then, but it was the killings at Kent State that provided fuel for the violent radical wing of the anti-war movement.
Buff State, like Kent State, was a working class campus where many, if not most, of the students were the first generation -- if not the very first individuals -- of their families to attend college. It wasn't a hotbed of anti-war protests like Berkley, Columbia or UB (university of Buffalo), but a school where most students were too busy pursuing their education to get involved in protests. The invasion of Camboda, after Nixon had been elected in 1968 on a pledge to end the Vietnam War, fired anti-war protests all across the country, even on campuses like Kent State and Buff State, because it expanded the war (and eventually paved the way for Pol Pot).
It wasn't anti-war violence that triggered the killings at Kent State because the protests hadn't been violent before then, but it was the killings at Kent State that provided fuel for the violent radical wing of the anti-war movement.
illinoisplanner
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Wow, 40 years. I remember reading a document about the history of the College Republican chapter at my school. It goes all the way back to 1960...fascinating stuff. Between Reagan-Bush appearances and feuds with liberal groups like the John Lennon Society, it's a good read.
But the hardest part to read was the part that talked about the Kent State shootings in 1970 and the impact it had across the country. It sparked riots and protests everywhere. Kent State is part of the same conference as NIU and the two are very similar. Medium-to-large state schools in the Upper Midwest, where as Linda_D mentioned, most students were just trying to get a decent education and are usually too busy to engage in protests. It's no wonder that protests erupted here and everywhere, after what happened at Kent State, as so many people identified with those students, some of whom were shot while minding their own business, walking to class. The violence was so bad that finals were canceled and classes here and a lot of other places simply shut down for the rest of the year.
But the hardest part to read was the part that talked about the Kent State shootings in 1970 and the impact it had across the country. It sparked riots and protests everywhere. Kent State is part of the same conference as NIU and the two are very similar. Medium-to-large state schools in the Upper Midwest, where as Linda_D mentioned, most students were just trying to get a decent education and are usually too busy to engage in protests. It's no wonder that protests erupted here and everywhere, after what happened at Kent State, as so many people identified with those students, some of whom were shot while minding their own business, walking to class. The violence was so bad that finals were canceled and classes here and a lot of other places simply shut down for the rest of the year.
mike gurnee
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My wife (fiance at the time) and I planned a trip from KY to Florida to be with my best friend. She worked with her profs to take finals early so we could hit the road. Somewhere after Atlanta we heard of the riots...and that finals were cancelled.
Bear Up North
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Jackson State
10 days after the Kent State event a similar event took place at Jackson State College, in Mississippi. 2 students were killed and 12 students injured. Back in 1970 this horrible event received very little newsplay. The students were black.
Even now, 40 years later, this event is not very well known. And that is a damn shame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_State_killings
Bear
10 days after the Kent State event a similar event took place at Jackson State College, in Mississippi. 2 students were killed and 12 students injured. Back in 1970 this horrible event received very little newsplay. The students were black.
Even now, 40 years later, this event is not very well known. And that is a damn shame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_State_killings
Bear